Find answers to Frequently Asked Questions for First Generation Firebirds that have been asked on First Generation Firebird-L mailing list. Special thanks needs to be given to all the Firebird-L owners that took the time to respond to other subscribers questions. These pages are continuously updated as new information is posted on the mailing list.
|Q:||'67 Body Tag Model Number and RPO codes|
|I just bought a 67 Firebird 400 and I picked up a Firebird ID Numbers book that covers 67-93. According to the book the "series" number is not correct. My number is 67-22637 which translates into 1967, Pontiac divission, series ? (27. The book shows 23 for Firebird), 2 door coupe. Can anyone shed some light? Also, where do you look for the RPO (regular production options) codes?|
...The Trim Tag Model Number for '67 Firebird deciphers as follows...
2- Division (Pontiac)
2637- Style (26-Custom Trim, 37-Firebird Coupe)
The "23" you mention refers to the VIN I.D. number (which didn't denote Standard or Custom Trim).
The 'RPO" (Fisher Body Accessory Codes) options are listed on the bottom of the '67 Firebird Trim Tag. Examples: L, 2GW, 3F, 4Q
*3F denotes the "400" option for '67 Firebird.
|Q:||'68 Custom Trim Option|
|I am confused that my car has the custom option trim (554) but it only has standard interior.|
The Custom Trim Option with custom seats for the '68 Firebird was identified on the Firewall Trim Tag as Style 22667 (conv) -or- 22637 (coupe). (22467 and 22437 were Std. Interiors).|
According to the sales literature, the Custom Trim Option (code 554) included the following.....
The body tag series number changed to reflect the deluxe interior with custom trim option (Code 554):
If you have a '23' in place of the '24' or '26' on your BODY TAG, we need a photo of your Firebirds body tag for research purpose. According to current research, it is believed that NO 67 or 68 Firebird Body Tags (not VIN tags) had '23' series code but instead only had '24' or '26'. Use the "report a problem or suggestion" button at the bottom of this page or email me at GeoffM1968@oakmediacreations.com. Your help will be GREATLY appreciated in this matter. Geoff
|Q:||Body Tag Assembly Date|
|The body tag on my car is missing and I'm wondering what the assembly date would have been. Can any of the dates shown on the PHS documentation be coorelated to the assembly date? Was it a random generated number?|
|A:||There are companies that reproduce the firewall Fisher Body Trim Tag. As for the Build Date Code on this tag, it was unique to the 'shell' of the vehicle and would not appear on the Billing History. The only other place this would appear is on the original Warranty Protec-to-Plate. Generally, the Body Build Date was about a week before the Billing History Invoice Date. Sometimes this varied but usually only on special order vehicles (RAII, Show Cars, etc). The difference being that the Body Tag Date was when the Body was sequenced for build by Fisher Body. The Invoice Date was when it actually was 'cleared' to leave Final Assy and Certification (just prior to shipping). So, from start to finish, it took about a week or so to build the complete car. If you send me your VIN, I can check it against the Registry Files and probably come up with a pretty close Body Build Date Code based on other VINs close to your's.|
|A:||Actually, the Fisher Body Unit Number was not randomly assigned. It was generated from ordering info and created by Sequencing (Broadcast). This number represented a specific build order within a batch for a specific time-frame. Factors that Fisher Body used when converting a dealer/customer order into a Body Unit Number included.... Exterior Colors, Models, Options, Special Orders. Just as it is today, cars were not necessarily built in the exact sequence they were ordered. In the world of mass produced vehicles, orders are processed based on production scheduling which in turn is established using many different variables. There was most certainly a process standard for assigning Body Unit Numbers however, I'm not aware of any factory documentation that survived. The Camaro Research Group has been trying to decipher this same issue for several years; What we do know is based primarily on common-practice and first-hand from former and current production plant employees.|
|Q:||Body Unit Number|
The number on the body tag (firewall) and the Fisher Unit number, how were
Also, how does the build date on the Body Tag correlate to the Billing date from GM? How long did it take to put the entire car together?
The Fisher Body Unit Number found on the Firewall Trim Tag was unique to
each assay plant and was not a sequential number nor was it sequential with
the VIN or any other number or build-date information.
The Unit Number was an internal Fisher Body Number used for sequencing the build of a vehicle relative to certain production factors such as color, model, options, etc.
Once the order was placed by a dealership, PMD routed this to the Plant for scheduling by the Broadcast Dept. That particular order was assigned for build according to the above factors and not necessarily in the order it was received.
If the same dealership ordered 2 different Firebirds on the same day, one a 6cyl verdoro green coupe and the other a Ram Air I black conv, chances are the coupe would be sequenced for build first. Both may have similar VINs but the Body Unit Number could vary quite a bit. Here's an example:
VIN- 164250 Body Unit No.- 4886
VIN- 164279 Body Unit No.- 7679
The Build Date on the Trim Tag was assigned by Fisher Body when the Sequence Number was assigned and scheduled for build. This represents the Month/Week when the body began to take form in the body-shop (Body in White- BIW). Again, there are factors here that dictate how long it took for a Body in White to be fully assembled and roll off the Final Assy Line. Part availability, Drivetrain availability and color all factored in. Generally, it took less than a week from the time a body received it's Trim Tag until it left Final and the Certification/Buy-Off Line. Once a vehicle was painted and transferred from the Fisher Body Facility to the Final Assy Plant, it generally only took a day to complete the car.
The Billing History Invoice Date was the date that the vehicle was "bought-off" after Final Assy. This is buy-off initiated the billing and delivery process. It's not uncommon to find some vehicles with a few weeks between the Body Build Date and Invoice Date due to special orders (colors, engines, etc.).
|Q:||Fisher Body Sequence Number|
|My body tag has 111 to the left of the build date code (05C) on the top line. What does this code mean?|
|A:||The three digit codes in this location are most likely Fisher Body Sequence Number (for production).|
|Q:||'67 Five Group Accessory Code System|
Need help decoding the following for a
1967 Convertible, if anyone could help
out i would really appreciate it. i noticed
that running the vin # and body tag number
on oakmediacreations firebird page the
production numbers of the vehicle didnt match
=========================================================== Firewall Tag: (as close to possible in the actual locations) 278 07B ST 67-22667 LOR 9854 Body TR 256-Z K-2 Paint EX 2EWG3 3M 4F 5Y =============================================================
278.... This code sometimes found in the upper LH corner or the Trim Tag is most likely the Fisher Body Sequence Number (for production).
|A:||The consecutive build number codes (9854) found on the body tag will not match the sequential production number code (102345) on the VIN. These numbers had different meanings at the plants.|
Group codes and their meanings. If you have numbers that are different, register your car with Generation-1 Registry since they are working on deciphering the meanings to these codes. There are many codes that are unknown. These codes were used at the factory to determine what cars needed special modifications. These modifications then correlated with additional options/modifications. Unfortunately for the restorer, these codes were discontinued after the 1967 model.
1st Group (Digit not shown) D.... Power Convertible Top E.... Soft-ray Tinted Glass (All Windows) L.... Folding Rear Seat (Firebird) O.... Two-tone Paint (Chrome separator strip) T.... Power Seat - bucket, left seat only V.... Remote Control Deck Lid Release W.... Soft-ray Tinted Glass (Windshield Only) X.... Power Windows Y.... Power Seat - Bench 2nd Group (2) A.... Foam Bench Seat Cushion (non-GTO) B.... 3-spd Manual Transmission Floor Shift C... ??? E.... Air Conditioning, diff ducting (Firebird, GTO) F.... ??? G.... Console H.... Heater Delete K.... A/C L.... 4-spd Manual Transmission Floor Shift R.... Rear Seat Speaker S.... Rear-mounted Manual Antenna T.... Rear-mounted Power Antenna U.... Stereo 8 Track Tape System V.... Verba-Phonic Rear Speaker W.... 2-spd Automatic Transmission Z.... 3-spd Automatic Transmission 3rd Group (3) B.... Rear Window Defogger C.... ?? D.... ?? F.... 400 Option (Firebird) H.... Rally Stripe (Firebird) J.... custom option (?) K.... Dome Courtesy Lamp M.... 326 HO Option (Firebird) N.... Roof Rail Reading Lamps W.... ?? 4th Group (4) F..... Outside Remote Control Mirror Q.... Fullsize Spare Tire (Firebird) 5th Group (5) B.... Luggage Light (KAN plant only) C.... Shoulder Belts, Front Seat (Firebird) J.... Underhood Light M.... Rear Center Seat Belt P.... Luggage Light (FRA and PON plants) Y.... Deluxe Front Seat Belts Z.... Shoulder Belts, front seat (GTO)
|A:||If you have more special codes to add to this list and want to help solve some of the mysteries, send them to us using the "Report a Problem" button at the bottom of this page or use the contact link below and found in the pull-down menu above. Every little insight will help solve these mysteries.|
|Q:||Body Tag Code K464|
I haven't been able to find the K464 code anywhere. Has anybody ever seen this code?
05D K464 ST 68-22437 LOS 3573 BODY TR 253 I-2
|A:||This number was an internal sequence number used at the Van Nuys Assembly Plant. It does not have any connection with the Body Unit Number, VIN, Engine Unit Number or Invoice Number. It was strictly a Plant Sequencing Number. So far, no GM or Fisher Body documentation has been discovered that would decipher this number. On the Body Broadcast Copy and Chassis Broadcast Copy ('Build Sheet' sometimes found under the seat, etc), there is a box for "Sequence" Number. Lordstown did not use the same numbering system as Van Nuys nor did they put it on the Trim Tag. Unfortunately, Van Nuys Firebirds rarely (if ever) left the plant with either of these sheets still in the car. (If anyone has ever found one, I'd be very interested in a copy). The Sequence Number is derived from the Dealer Order Number. There are a few Firebirds in the Registry with very close VINs that do not have sequential Body Number and/or Sequence Numbering. In other words, the Plant Assigned Numbers do not have a direct association with the VIN.|
|Q:||Body Tag Code C363|
What does the c363 mean I cant find it any where.
04d c363 ST 68-22637 LOS 1721 TR 259 I-I
|A:||The code you refer to comes from the Van Nuys, CA Assy Plant. Since no formal documentation has surfaced as to exactly what that code represents, the best guess is an internal plant - Fisher Body sequencing code. Somewhat connected to the vehicle order number. It has no significance with regard to the VIN, Body number, date or options.|
|Q:||Body Tag Special Codes|
I have a question about a '69 body tag. The second line has TR, 208, then a 67, then "B", PNT (Black Morrokide interior, Burgundy exterior, black vinyl top). Their third line has the 12D in it (December 1969 build date) and about an inch over is a "T339". What would T339 code for on the '69 tag?
============================= Firewall Tag: ST-69 22367 VN 516941 Body TR 208 67B Paint 12D T339 =============================
|A:||Each Plant in '69 (Los Angeles, Lordstown, Norwalk) used a different code system for In-Plant tracking, special-options, etc. The code "T339" is one of them. Since no records from the plants have ever surfaced, this is hard to decipher.|
|Q:||Vin, Body Tag, and engine code information|
Running the vin number and body tag number on oakmediacreations firebird page the production numbers of the vehicle didn't match one another plus what do the codes on the engine stand for:|
Block Casting numbers on R/F of engine (only numbers I can see)
Stamped numbers on the right front of engine block
1. This is correct, these two numbers found on the body tag and the VIN will not match. The numbers on the VIN represent the Sequential Production Number. The numbers on the Body Tag represent the Unit Number or consecutive build number. The last tells in sequence when the car came off the assembly line. Again, the body tag number will not match the actual sequential VIN number.|
2. Block Casting numbers on R/F of engine (only numbers I can see)
I do not know what these represented on the block.
3. Stamped numbers on the right front of engine block
508743 = Motor Unit Number
YJ = 8 cyl, 326 cid, 250 hp, 9.2:1 comp. ratio, 2 bc carb, auto trans.
(Sources: Firebird Red Book, Catalog of Firebird ID Numbers 1967-93, Pontiac Historic Services, Year One Catalog)
|Q:||Paint code is special-1 on my '68|
|We are trying to get the body tag for our 1968 Firebird. The problem we are having is with the paint code. It says the paint code is special-1. Is there another code for that?|
|A:||You have the "Special Paint Option" which is indicated by 'special'. When the original owners ordered their car they wanted a color that Pontiac did not offer as an optional color. These colors in 68 were normally Pink Mist, Carnival Red, Marigold Yellow, or Windward Blue Irid (Irid. means metallic with all others solid).|
|A:||Keep in mind that some of these colors were a Spring release, late year option. Also any color was avaliable as an option if the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) could supply it. I've seen Cars with SPEC on data plate and they had an extra QT of paint shipped with them.|
|Q:||Paint code PRIME-2 on '68|
|We are having a problem with the paint code found on the body tag. It says the paint code is PRIME-2. Is there another code for this?|
|A:||I've heard of several cars with special paint codes or PRIME-XXX Various reasons for this I'm sure.. special order, race cars, company cars requiring special paint. Not a common thing to see. The '2' represents Black top.|
|Q:||Show-1 Paint Code|
|My body tag has "show 1" where the paint codes should be. What does this mean.|
|A:||In regards to your question about a "Show 1" Body Tag, yes I have seen those before on a GTO as well as other makes/models. They are quite rare because they were generally very early production vehicles (but not always). Even to this day, the auto companies produce "SHOW" vehicles early in production. Working in Advance Mfg. at DaimlerChrysler, I see vehicles with these same Body Tags... "SHOW 1", "SHOW 2", etc. Also see: "PILOT" and "SPEC" as well. Generally, these special build vehicles were scheduled during the pre-production phase by Engineering or Styling. A "SHOW" Build is built on the regular Line but is treated special and fit/finish are very usually a little better. Paint is also unique and given an extra shine. As with most pre-production or even some early build vehicles, many were destroyed due to various test requirements. A "SHOW" vehicle would have survived if no other Dept. requested it after it's purpose of "Show" was over. Example: Usually, every fall, the Plants will run a few "SHOW" vehicles for Detroit AutoRama. When the new Grand Cherokee came out in '92, I personally remember seeing (3) "SHOW" vehicles built. All were Red and each had an 'escort' to ensure all trim/exterior parts were show worthy. In addition to the Body Trim Tags stating the vehicles purpose (BTW, at Chrysler, these Tags are temporarily 'wire-tied' to the front lower cross member until mid-way through the Chassis Line). "SHOW" vehicles have special Broadcast Sheets as well as hand-written sheets attached to all sides to let Operators know that this vehicle is to be treated special. To find a "SHOW" 1st Gen. Firebird is indeed a rare thing. Finding the Broadcast Sheet would be an interesting discovery. If I can answer any similar questions, feel free to let me know.|
|Q:||Special paint option CODE SPR and Carousel Red for 1969|
I have a couple of questions regarding the info I have received on my
Firebird from PHS.
1. What is the significance of the special paint option CODE SPR? Mine is carousel red. What is special about that ?
2. Does anyone know what the last 2 items on the options list are. They are:-
OPTIONAL LOC CODE 011
ADV.ASSN.COL CODE 011 $10.00
|A:||* Carousel Red was a Special Order Paint in '69 for Firebird|
The ADV.ASSN.COL that is shown on a dealer invoice means "Advertising
Association Collected". The local dealer advertising groups will charge
a certain amount for each car to fund the tv and local newspaper ads.
OPTIONAL LOC means that the car was unloaded by the driver of the car carrier at the dealers "Optional Location". Many dealers have a different location or storage lot, where they store their new-car inventory.
I assure you that neither of the notes on an invoice are showing this car, or any car as being used for promotional purposes! By the way............ lots of invoices had these notes. They are nothing special.
The story on Carousel Red is a good one, but there is absolutely no truth to it! Pontiac did release four (4) special order colors for 1968. These colors were:
Windward Blue, Goldenrod Yellow, Pink and the equivalent of Carousel Red. These colors were available on all 1968 Pontiacs, not just the Firebird. To the best of my knowledge, the reasoning for releasing these special colors was that both Ford and Chrysler had some very popular "bright" colors, including an orange in their color lineup. Remember, this was the psychedelic era! This was GM's response to those offerings, nothing more!!!
|Q:||Deviations from Normal Codes on a '69 Body Tag|
I recently purchased a 1969 Firebird with a body tag as follows:
ST 69-22367 VN514538 BDY TR 206 73 G PNT 12C S093What I am puzzled over is the G in the body tag. I have pictures with what is supposed to be the original top and I have the original boot. Both items match the color of the interior which is midnight green. What does the G stand for????
|A:||I'd have to say that the "VN" is just a variation for the Van Nuys Plant loc. code. There are others within the Registry with this same variation. One is a "2B" date code..... VN512949 and the other is a "12C" date code..... VN513857. "73" is obviously the Fisher Body code ofr Verdoro Green. The only listing I find using the "G" is Pontiac Factory Coding which used "G" for Antique Gold. This may be a legit color that has just not been published in any lists yet or, it could be a typo or mis-read. My guess is that the paint was Verdoro Green and the conv. top was Antique Gold which is listed on the '69 Order Form as an "Upper Color"... "G".. Antique GoldPlease fwd. the photo again of the Trim Tag (as a .jpg please). I couldn't get it to open.|
The information that is found on Fisher Body tags, especially the 1968-9 tags, don't tell you anything about a car, except the body style, color and the trim. Even then, I've seen some deviations in this information, from one plant to another and even from shift to shift at the same plant! Remember these cars were built in "BC" (Before Computer) and a lot was left to human interpetation.
For the most part Fisher Body used the GM corporate codes for body color and top color, as opposed to the codes that were used by the divisions, in this case Pontiac. Code "73" converts to Pontiac code "Q", for Verdoro Green. The "G" that immediately follows, converts to Pontiac code "9" for Dark Green. At least the trim codes are the same for #206, or Standard Green Vinyl. Confussed??? So are all of us so-called experts!!! 1969 is the worst of the bunch!
|Q:||'69 Upper Body Color is "F"|
|I have a 69 Firebird with a paint code of 61F. The paint is Expresso Brown the original vinyl top was dark brown but I cant find a code or match anywhere. Any suggestions?|
Let's see if this helps. I believe "PNT 61" is correct for Expresso Brown, I am going on a questionable memory here as I can't put my hands on my paint charts. In '69, the colors were designated by a confusing crossover of numbers from the Order Form to the firewall Data Plate. If you ordered Expresso Brown, you checked off letter "B" on the form, and if you wanted a vinyl top option (called the Cordova Top) you checked a number, in this case number "8" for Dark Fawn.
My 69 Firebird Order Form shows 5 available Cordova Top colors:
In the case of convertibles:
On the Firewall Data Plate, they are shown as:
C=dark blue (all)
?=dark fawn (coupe)
G=dark green (all)
I cannot remember ever making note of what dark green and dark fawn are represented by in letter form, but the ones I DO know are the corresponding number positions of those letters in the alphabet, but I am willing to guess there's more to this. I don't think I've ever seen letters "H" and "I" on Data Plates. If this sequence follows, then numbers 8 and 9 for dark fawn and dark green would be the 8th and 9th letters of the alphabet, but I cannot find anything to prove this. Looking at the sequence with question marks in place of letters, one might imagine letters "F" and "G" fitting there.
My guess then is that code "F", the 6th letter, likely represents the Dark Fawn Cordova Top Option.
|Q:||'68 Body Tag - Interior Code 281|
|My body tag has interior code 281. I can not find this in any of the resource books. My interior is brown if that helps.|
Brown/tan interior *was* offered in
1968. I can attest to this because my 68 FB was ordered with and has the
saddle (tan) leather interior (trim code 281). In addition, the car if
original, should have matching brown/tan/goldish dash pad. Lastly the
convert boot and deluxe wheel (if applicable) should also be tan/brown to
match the tan/brown interior. Keep in mind though that 281 leather option
was a late year addition (early June) so check your invoice date (billing
history) to see when your bird was invoiced.
BTW, what do your door panels look like? The 281 option used tan/brown vinyl with a "faux leather grain" finish. (Quite bizarre looking actually...)
|Where can I find more data plate information.|
I have more information located in the specific year sections on the First Generation Firebird web site. Point your browser to the following web pages:|