Hi all, Is this the right place to post for a newbie? I have two 68 Firebirds both are super crappy but its all I could barter and trade up for, I hope to make one driver out of the two. The one that looks a little better is actually way worse but it does have a complete drive train and running and smoking 350 . I think the mostly complete car will be my parts car since the other one seems less rusted. Someone did the floors( not great but not rusted) I just finally got it into my tiny garage after sitting outside untouched for years. Starting to clean it out( trying to find places to put the parts) My current plan is to open up the rear framerails from the top to get a better look at them to determine whether a partial or full rail replacement is needed. I have a full trunk pan but that's all i have right now for it. This will be a super slow mode resto. Go easy on me guys I know the cars are horrible but I am a poor guy with no budget so I have to try to use whatever crap I can salvage. On the bright side I did just score a 67 400 long block that I can't afford to build. Also 6x-4 heads that came off a running motor.
Big WELCOME !!! You've come to the right place for help, there's a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people here. Is that a FORD hood scoop on the bird with the camaro 1/4 panels?
I got the car that way with that hood. Don't worry I don't plan on keeping it I want a 400 hood. I have seen a couple other Firebirds with the same scoop though weird huh? The car also had 400 badging on it , false advertising I found out its just a 350 with crappy heads.
no never have. I actually hate the cold and snow and two stroke noise.I do have a ATV but mostly use it around the yard and now for plowing. So do I continue posting updates right here or somewhere else?
Got my radiator support off. Also the second leaf spring pocket. Had to cut off one out of two bolts. Seeing more work it needs of course. I definitely need to do the whole drivers side rear frame rail. Might be able to salvage most of the passenger side. Looks like I am going to have to redo the prior owners attempt at floor pans, uggg.They are overlapped and sloppy. I think I am about ready to pull the sub-frame off.
Yes those are BB chevy frame mounts. Originally I was going to make it into a Camaro (sorry purist) but plans changed It will remain Pontiac. Actually I traded the 454 I had for the second 68 Firebird with the running 350.
Looking good, just keep moving forward and you will make it. Once you shelve a project the restart can be a bear. I have had quite a few first gens starting back in about 80, 81. I first fell in love with one on my school bus route back when I was about 12 or 13 in the 70s. My latest is a low mile barn find with all it's original sheet metal and no rot but many years of mice torture and non use so I am going through it to make a solid driver/survivor.
OK so after getting a closer look at the poor floor pan install the prior owner did I am having second thoughts about restoring this car over my parts car. How do I decide which is the less of two evils? The first car needs full trunk, rear frame rails, inner and outer wheel houses, and total body reskin. outer rockers, roof skin, maybe inner rockers. The good was supposed to be the floors and firewall. problem with the floors is they overlapped and crappy welded. i am not confident they are sitting where they should. also they looked warped. Only way i see to correct this is to do a full one piece floor install.
That leads to my parts car. Now I haven't dug into it but it need all the same work as the first car plus not sure on the firewall since the car is complete with a drive train. The plus on the parts car is it is a straighter car, roof skin is OK except probably the window channels. Also i think the inner rockers are good and most of the outer rockers. I am trying to do the car that makes the most sense. I guess I need to push the first car out of my cramped garage and drag in the parts car for a better evaluation.
My recommendation would be to look for a better shell in the long run it would be much cheaper and you would end up with a better product with more oe sheet metal. A friend down the road from me has a decent one he would probably part with very reasonably but it is a 67 and there are differences. It's also a 400 car making it worth more in the long run.
very sorry to hear that. Hope you are OK I had some recent heart issues as well but i am stable in that department. I have something called a left bundle branch block. Its not actually a blockage though. Between my past injuries, disabilities, and health scares and age (a rough 56 next month) is the main reason I want to have a first gen Fbody to toy around with.
So I decided to drag the shell out of the garage today so I can eventually bring the parts car in for a better evaluation. Took me by myself probably half a day, one of the caster wheels ripped off during the process. My driveway is horrible very lumpy and uneven and ruts and divots etc.Also the first guy to build this body cart did not use swivel wheels.
Ok so today I dragged the parts car out of the snow covered back yard. Mixture of my truck and my 4 wheeler and finally got it into my garage. I'm sure you all thinking what's the big deal? But for a small guy one man band that took 5 years to clean out my cramped garage enough to fit a car in it. Its a big deal for me.
no no and no. No floors, no frame-rails and trunk pan no good. I do not have any money to buy a better shell. Almost every shell has the potential to be saved and built. I have seen many better ones for to much money and many worse ones for to much money. Obviously starting with a more solid shell would be preferred in a perfect world. My world is far from perfect.
I am disabled, I don't work. I live in pain 24/7 and literally have some brain damage. I am fully functional though and have almost all the basic skills. I am financially poor but happy to accept your donations.On the bright side I have time to devote And plan on doing all the work myself.
Just passing along some information here on the trunk pan and frame-rail assemblies you can purchase from real deal steel. I wrote them asking what was the installation procedure and will paste the reply.
Daniel, It is bet if the main floor is already installed. That way, the forward frame rails and forward edge of the trunk floor have a place to land. From there, it just needs to be square. If you need a measurement from a point on the floor to a point on the trunk floor assembly, we can help with that. Or, you can purchase the entire assembly:
OK , Changing plans yet again. Now that the parts car is in the garage I got a better look at it. Turns out it is worse then the other car. Now I have to drag it out again and the other one in. It is still good for parts though. I should call the parts car the illusion because it looks better but is actually much worse where it counts.
My end goal is not to build a perfect show car but I am just shooting for a solid safe driver.
Well yesterday I started to take the parts car off the wheel dollies and tripped and landed hard on my wrist, feels broken but is a sprain. Yes I am accident prone.
Agreed Barnbird! Hey does anyone on this site live in or near NH that has a frame/chassis jig they would be willing to lend out? Seems like a fair amount of cash to burn on materials to make one for a one or two time use. I have a strong looking homemade rotisserie I bought off craigs list I would be willing to swap use for,
Hey, at the risk of offending the purists is anyone besides me not a fan of the fake rear quarter louvers? Being a 67/68 camaro fan I like the smooth plain rear quarter of a 67 camaro. I don't mind the 67 Firebird quarter but I think the fake louvers look cheap and cheesy. Has anyone done any mods to the louvers to make them look better and or functional?
Personally, I think they are beautiful! I cringe every time I see 'Maro repop quarters on a 'bird!
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure. I feel like I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe. 1968 400 convertible (Scarlet) 1976 T/A - 455 LE (No Burt) 1976 T/A New baby, starting full restoration. 1968 350 - 4 speed 'vert - 400 clone (the Beast!) 1968 350 convertible - Wife's car now- 400 clone (Aleutian Blue) (Blue Angel) 2008 Durango - DD 2008 GXP - New one from NH is AWESOME! 2017 Durango Citadel - Modern is nice! HEMI is amazing! 1998 Silverado Z71 - Father-daughter project 1968 400 coupe - R/A clone (Blue Pearl) (sold) 1967 326 convertible - Sold 1980 T/A SE Bandit - Sold
I have seen or read about the gills missing because Camaro quarters were used as replacements, the chrome being painted, or bondo used to fill them in. It's your car and project. Make it the way you want it. Personally, this "purist" thinks they are part of what gives mine its identity and good looks as a '68 Firebird.
In the old days we called them Gills. I personally love all the things that differentiate our Ponchos from Chebbys. If you read the history of how the firebird came to be and how gm thrust the f-body on them last minute while canceling General manager John DeLorean's vision of a 2 seat sports car called the Banshee you will really come to appreciate how well the engineers and designers did in such a short time to make the f-body a ''Pontiac''.
And to BarnBird I will have to take your word about the history, I can't read more then a line or two since my past head injury. And guys don't get me wrong I really like the First gen Firebirds but know that I grew up owning 67 and 68 camaros and they were my first love. So Firebirds must be special if I now own two of them and have given up my camaro dream for my Pontiac.
By the way I don't like the fake camaro louvers either, meaning I think they should be functional i do like the look
68topless- I love the gills on the Birds! I was recently helping someone look for a bird, and he came across one that the guy put maro quarters on, and the value took a nose dive at that point..
Last edited by Sleddog; 01/21/2112:46 PM.
Cant wait for summer... 68HO4004spvert Sleddog Iowa
God Bless the men and women past and present that have served this country. Thank you. Support D.A.V. - it helps gives a life back to those who gave so much for us.....
I will put Firebird quarters back on it because I do realize the value in keeping it all ponrtiac. . Do you think its also a mistake to use 67 Firebird Quarters instead of the correct 68? I can guess your answer.
Anybody in the NH area have a frame jig I could borrow?
I will put Firebird quarters back on it because I do realize the value in keeping it all ponrtiac. . Do you think its also a mistake to use 67 Firebird Quarters instead of the correct 68? I can guess your answer.
Anybody in the NH area have a frame jig I could borrow?
If you use '67 quarters, at least the '68 rear marker lights could be cut in at a later date by a future Owner. (Leave / protect the wires) For me, the rear quarter marker lights are the reason I have owned 18-20 '68 'birds over the years, and only one '67 'bird. To each his own, it's your car, do what you want.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure. I feel like I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe. 1968 400 convertible (Scarlet) 1976 T/A - 455 LE (No Burt) 1976 T/A New baby, starting full restoration. 1968 350 - 4 speed 'vert - 400 clone (the Beast!) 1968 350 convertible - Wife's car now- 400 clone (Aleutian Blue) (Blue Angel) 2008 Durango - DD 2008 GXP - New one from NH is AWESOME! 2017 Durango Citadel - Modern is nice! HEMI is amazing! 1998 Silverado Z71 - Father-daughter project 1968 400 coupe - R/A clone (Blue Pearl) (sold) 1967 326 convertible - Sold 1980 T/A SE Bandit - Sold
Well the shell i think i am going to restore doesn't have any usable wiring. Also I don't have any marker light assemblies since priors used camaro quarter skins but I think I have one lens.
To be honest I have never seen them lit up.
They do look better then the 68 camaro marker lights and is why I had only 67's.
I did not actually buy these cars. they both came to me through barter and trading trying to get back a long lost 67 RS/SS i had at the beginning of my marriage 30 years ago!
First came the 68 shell with no drivetrain or front sheet metal. it had a camaro fiberglass front clip and at that time I had a 454 and was going to make it a camaro clone (sorry) I traded a 55 Chevy 4 door roller empty big project for the 68 shell.
But then the complete parts car came to me with a running and yard driving 350 auto and was told posi but haven't confirmed. I traded my 454 and a super t10 for the complete parts car.
When the 68 parts car came to me i realized I am not meant to get another camaro and its time to have a Firebird. I have never owned any Pontiacs.
I would love to build my 67 400 i scored ($150 with 6x-4 heads) and convert to a 4 speed as i am old school. But first I need to make the shell a roller again To bad there isn't a hand me down donation section here. I am not to proud for handouts but am appreciative of course.
What's not to get? We can all use a little inspiration especially in the dead of Winter. Heck it worked for me even though I am not involved in body work on my car I just transposed my hand with my knuckles wrapped in electrical tape, the mechanics go to band aide.
Thought i mentioned i literally have some brain damage and things that are obvious to others are not always obviously to me. We were talking about 68 and 67's louvers and when the 69 was posted i didn't catch on
Well today I got back in the garage with my healing injured wrist determined to find out if i do in fact have a limited slip or not. Well for once i lucked out and found both tires spinning in the same direction. Yay!
To be clear i didn't find them spinning i jacked up the rear-end and turned one tire by hand and saw the other turning in the same direction. You guys get the idea.
How do I find out my ratio? Does a posi get special gear oil?
First off you need to Figure out what it is if you want to decode the 2 letters on the rear of the drivers axle tube by the brake line clip. Firebirds used specific 8.2 Diffs for 7 8 and 9 And you can make them all fit..7 used single leaf but can be converted so the best way to tell is there will be 2 cast in hoops on either side of the top of the carrier housing. 8 does not have these and has multi leaf spring perches. 9 looks identical to 8 except you will find 2 dents that look like they were made with a sledge hammer on top of both axle tubes just to the inside of the backing plates to give more room for the snubbers. But you could also have a Chevy 12 bolt or 8.5 or who knows. the rear cover shape will tell you everything you need to know. If you do have a 8 or 9 8.2 and it has a gear ratio 3,3somthing or higher stock then you hit first gen gold with a heavy duty 4 pinion Safety track with 4 spider/Pinion gears, 2 side gears and a nodular housing. As far as fluid it takes regular hypoid oil with a separate additive for the cones in the locking part. if you cant find the axle code if it is an 8.2 you can use the count the turns method or just pull the cover and if oem gears the numbers for the ring and pinion will be stamped into the side of the ring gear and then you just do the math.
thanks barnbird, I decided to pull the cover sometime to change the fluid. I was going to try the axle code route but then i though what if someone changed the gear set?
I also decided to replace the blown brake lines on the parts car so next time i move it i can stop
So I made a few discoveries on the rear-end so far. First I tried to remove the right rear brake drum and of course no go. It must have taken me an hour solid of hammering on the drum until it finally gave up and came off. At that time I noticed the flattened spot on the axle tube for the bump stop. Also the wheel cylinder was seized beyond belief. Another 20 min of hammering just to see if it would free up and yes I know I need to replace it. Then I discovered the worst axle bearing slop I have ever seen. Between that and the pinion seal leak I guess an overhaul is in order. I have determined I do have a BOP 8.2 but that is all I know. I tried cleaning off the axle tube to the left of the diff cover down to bare metal and can't find anything. The other brake drum came right off as it should.
Is the brake line that comes from the front proportioning valve to the rear T junction over the rear end a larger diameter then the ones that go to the wheel cylinder? I know on my Chevy truck that is the case. All 3/16 except that main line front to back. Can't remember but i think its 1/4
Why do they use limited slip with highway gears? I always thought it was for off the line hook up drag race applications. Wouldn't highway gear posi make it bog on hard launches?
Are you guys using timken bearings or store brands?
Good job Frankie. Next time you run into a a drum that hard to pull just cut the hold down pins from behind and it will come right off and saves a lot of beating and prying. Don't spend any money on that rear rebuild until you pull the cover. At that time see how much fluid comes out and check for signs of lack of fluid such as bluing and play. Unlike a Chevy Diff. the rear axle bearings are not lubed by the Diff. lube so it is not a sign of low fluid. Also the Pinion seal leak is common and even when just seeping creates a big mess. When replacing seal make sure to mark the Pinion flange and nut and retighten just a little past afterwards so as not to change the Pinion depth on the ring gear. The 2 letter code was not always stamped very deep and with years of surface rust sometimes disappears. All the manufactures marketed there Traction lock setups for traction in mud snow ect. even though we look at it through high performance eyes. This is why you will find so many Posi, Limited slip traction lock ect. rears in old station wagons. By the way usually when I found a Bearing completely smoked as you describe I would also find that the inner race was spun on the shaft hopefully not the case for yours.
Thanks Barnbird for all the great advice! I had no idea about the axle bearings not being lubed by the gear oil. Glad you said that.
So I need a sealed bearing then I assume?
Does the axle four bolt flange have seals as well?
If I find the bearing race was spun as you mentioned then is the axle toast? ( I always get the worst cases and uncommon situations) Or is there a repair type bearing?
I was really glad to see I have my first bolt in axles. I have actually had my c clip axle come out when driving (not fun)
Since one axle bearing is toast I assume I should just do both with their seals?
Also do the carrier bearings get sloppy? If I have fluid when I remove the cover and no obvious damage is it safe to assume all is well in there?
1. yes sealed bearing. 2 Axle seal is in tube behind Bearing. 3. no repair bearing that I am aware of those are for a bearing w/o an inner race. 4. I always replace both outer axle bearings all seals inspect everything and new fluid with every unknown rear that has sat for a long period unused. 5. Physical as well as visual inspection. The carrier and pinion Bearings last a loooong time as long as there is no water and proper lube. Also check your vent, it is on top of the axle tube. I usually find them stuck on old cars which will push the fluid past the seals when at speed.
Gotcha thank you. Hopefully I will pull the cover this weekend. I guess plan B would be to buy the 67 BOP peg-leg highway geared rear on Craigslist not to far from me.
I can't seem to find a definite answer on what size the intermediate brake line is? Front to back Is it 3/16? Is it 1/4? Or does it depend whether you have disc brakes and or power brakes?
So I made a few discoveries today. First since the pinion seal had been leaking I wanted to pull my driveshaft to check the pinion bearing slop. Well since it had leaked the u joint bolts has grime and no rust! That was awesome easy to unbolt. I can't feel any up.down or side to side movement but there is like a backlash movement rotating clockwise and counterclockwise, hard to tell how much since its so easy to spin now without the trans attached in neutral. Which leads to next question. In neutral there was a lot of drag trying to spin the tires by hand. Is this normalish or is it real bad? Next when I removed the diff cover I was happy to see gear oil pouring out. Guesstimate about a quart but didn't measure it. I found no evidence of water or any damage or abnormal colors on the ring gear teeth There was some extra thick greasy oily substance at the bottom of the diff but i found zero metal chunks or particles. I can't see the pinion well enough to check for visual damage or id markings but I do count 37 teeth on the ring gear and again no visible id markings except one strange one. Is it safe to assume I have a 336 ratio? What the heck kind of nameless no marking posi chuck do i have? And last but not least I found a great present in the trunk. A complete set of front windshield chrome trim i had no idea i had . And its definitely nice enough for a driver
One thing I forgot to add last time, when replacing the Pinion seal make sure and use rtv gasket maker on the outside metal frame of the seal before installing. I can't tell you how many Pinion seal leaks I've found that were not from the seal contact area but the outer edge of the metal to metal contact area, Also be sure to remember and mark the Pinion nut and count or mark threads and only tighten a little past or you will smoke the gears, It is normal for a Safety trac or Posi rear to turn stiffer in neutral then a standard Diff. a little backlash between the ring and Pinion is normal. On the 8.2s I normally find the numbers stamped from the factory such as 37-11 on the side of the ring gear. I don't remember seeing the scribed markings in your picture but may be my memory. I can't make out what it says by your pictures but may be a sign of an aftermarket gear set. To count the Pinion teeth you need to clean off the face and reach in with needle nose or grabber tool and mark a tooth edge then it's easy to count from their. You are right on the assumption of it being 3:36 with a 37 tooth ring gear if factory and it has a 11 tooth Pinion. It's hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like a 4 Pinion to me just count the spider/Pinion gears, 4 +2 side axle gears = heavy duty sought after diff. Which came standard with 3:36 and numerically higher gears. In good shape they should fetch between 12 to 1500 dollars. Either way if you have a 3.36 that is a great all around ratio when not using an overdrive Transmission.
Last edited by barnbird; 01/31/2101:14 PM. Reason: confusion
Thanks Barnbird, I think you miss understood me about the drag I felt. The drag is in the transmission in neutral i believe. Since removing the driveshaft the rear end spins super easy just grabbing the yoke.
Second thank you for the tips on the pinion seal replacement I will be sure to use the suggested rtv on the metal part of the seal. Any particular color RTV?
What weight diff fluid is recommended? 80-90? what type of limited slip additive? Is it 3 quarts to fill it? plus the additive?
I re read and you are right. But it still holds true a Traction lock rear turns harder in neutral and easier with driveshaft disconnected.. 2. If you read the rtv specs each color tells you what they are designed for. As far as weight and quantity that is readily available info. Hear is a great source, the 68 Pontiac service manual on Harold B's site https://www.firebird400ho.com/mdocuments-library/ Then you can roughly buy the correct amount and fill to the check/fill hole. Before you pull the axle you can do a rough check on the condition of the locking cones and springs by grabbing hold of the axle face while someone is holding the other one and twist to see how easy the axles break apart. This is a subjective test because if you have two weak people it can change the outcome.
Well I already pulled the axle so i can;t do that cone test? Just is well i am a solo act and my wife wouldn't be able to help . So I have my first big (to me) problem. You were right in that the axle with the toast bearing is out to lunch as well. The bearing was wiggling around and caused a huge undercut where the bearing is supposed to be pressed on. Now what do i do? Buy a new axle? Two axles? Have it repaired? Buy that Craigslist rear-end i mentioned for parts? Are all bop 8.2 axles the same spline and length? Also i couldn't figure out how to use my HF press in a way to remove the bearing and spacer so i had to cut it off. Is that usually the case or did i miss something? Then i panicked about the other axle so i pulled it as well. That bearing has a small amount of play but i am assuming the axle is fine. So i really only need one axle
Good thing you found it. In 1977 when mine was making a terrible noise in the back when turning, I had Mr. Goodwrench look at it. They found the frozen bearing on mine had cut the axle to 1/2 it's normal diameter.
I thought that is what you might find. When a bearing starts to fail in the rear it is not all that loud and can be hard to hear especially if you have loud mufflers. when the bearings start to gall they get hot and actually weld themselves together which then forces the inner race to start spinning on the axle. That is why I always recommend changing them with unknown history. Cutting them off is fine and is actually the fastest way to remove. As far as I know all the axles have the same dimensions on 7,8,9 8.2 rears. I have heard of unobtainable axles being repaired But if I were you I would price a new one shipped and also see if you can get the open diff. on Craig's list for 100 to 150. whatever the seller thinks that is all it is worth and if you let it sit I can almost guarantee it won't sell for what he wants. Then do what makes the best sense for you. The easiest way to avoid that scenario with a bearing is to jack it up and check for play once and awhile, it would have avoided ruining the axle.
Also I would like to know, are both axle tubes flattened on top just to the inside of the backing plates. It looks from the pictures like a 4 Pinion diff did you count and confirm? If it is the Heavy duty 4 Pinion like I suspect it has the stronger Nodular iron housing and you can confirm this by looking for a capitol N cast into the side or top of it. Also should have mentioned you can check the health of the locking mechanism by also putting it in gear if standard or park if an auto and raising both wheels off the ground and grabbing a tire and turning. If in good shape you wont be able to turn it unless your an animal.
Weird thing is the bad bearing did still spin as well as spin on the axle bearing surface, at lease it did before i cut it. The bearing seal was blown as well. first thing i did was remove the spacer so i could tell what i was looking at. That same side also had the seized wheel cylinder and paper thin shoes. not sure if that could be related to the bearing failure?
In any case I never drove the car more then ten feet in my yard so i had no way of hearing the bearing. plus its open and holy rotted headers!
That bearing failure is also what prompted me to check the other side. plus i wanted to know if i need just one or both axles.
My dilemma on buying a used vs new is one i need to pinch every dollar but more because i am worried about having axles of two different qualities as well as one new and one old. Would that make the stock one more likely to brake during a hard launch?
As far as the Craigslist open 8,2 i have been watching this guys ads for a long time, he also has some 67 doors and i bought headers from him last year when i found mine were rotted.
By the way i did check both rear bearings holding the tire and trying to move it up and down and both sides i could not detect movement. It wasn't until i was trying to remove the drum that i saw the hub moving.
On my Chevy truck i could hear the axle make noise when cornering and could feel movement when grabbing the tire.And those axle bearings were just starting to go and were not horrible,
You did mention about seeing the flat spot on one side but I just wanted to confirm that you are working with a 69 rear. No need to look at pictures on the internet to know if 4 Pinion. Just look in the carrier window and count the gears. In your pictures above the axle you can see them in the third and fourth pictures they are the little gears in the center of carrier. as mentioned some people call them spider gears. The side gears are to the side and the axles go through them. What I see in your pictures is a 4 Pinion but just want you to confirm in person. the 4 Pinion gears are on something that looks like the center cross part of a u-joint in the center of the carrier. How much snow did you get? I got a foot at the house and 25 minutes west in the Berkshire mountains where I mostly snowmobile we ended up with almost 2 feet.
I know you did not drive the car it was just advice for you in the future and for anyone else reading this without a mechanical background. The reason you could not feel the play is because your drum was so tight because of the brake problems, presumably people won't be driving cars in that shape at least without knowing and will be able to feel the up and down play of a bearing on the way out. The Bearing will fluctuate from slightly welding it self together jamming up to grinding/breaking itself apart many times on it's way to total destruction. As far as breaking axles is this going to be a drag car on slicks with a high end torque and horsepower motor? if not don't worry about it. And yes if some one drove that car to long with a very tight drum It will and I have seen it fry the grease right out of a bearing, we used to get them towed in when I was a young mechanic. One time I was sent out on a wrecker call to pick up a car on the highway that had caught fire in the right front from pushing it to far with a tight caliper. luckily someone had stopped with an extinguisher and saved the car but was an expensive repair. the Bearing had seized on that to and spun /ruined the spindle.
Last edited by barnbird; 02/02/2104:34 PM. Reason: wrong word
Barnbird 4 pinion is confirmed now and for my poor eyes and a light was not easy for me to see. The internet pictures were for the shape of the carrier because I noticed all the different posi chucks have unique shapes. I Still don't see the desirable N but again I can't get a good view yet. Trying to spend as little time under the car as possible since its so rotted. I already had my truck fall on my head and don't want another vehicle to hurt me .
We got about ten inches just finished clearing the driveway. I hate the snow. but plowing with my 2wd 4 wheeler is fun now that i have some traction.
I have had a seized front caliper smoke and get red hot.
The Craigslist dude refused my offer for $100 even though i am a repeat customer. I did ask him if he wanted to give me reasonable counter offer.
I will look at a new replacement axle but i have the tendency to go for the cheapest i can find. Is that a mistake? I do want to find a quality bearing like a timken, the advance auto brands concern me and i think the one i put in my truck is already starting to make noise. As far as how i will use the car is hard to answer. There is my dream plan then a more likely reality plan.
Dream is a healthy build of my 400 and a super t10 4 spd to be mostly street driven with frequent smoke shows on drag radials so i can see what it would do at the track. I would still use my 6x heads so i am guessing hp maybe 400.
I doubt i would ever be on slicks unless i came into some unexpected money.
The reality is having to use my 350 with the automatic on street tires with frequent burn outs.
I ordered my 80w90 gear oil and GM posi additive but still need to source the axle and bearings and seals.
After reading what I have written I am realizing it is stupid to buy that rear end for parts because then i have a rear-end i can't use in the other firebird It would be great to have two rolling cars.I do have two driveshafts and two sets of leaf springs and two motors.
I have no recent experience with aftermarket axles so hopefully someone else will chime in. as far as Bearings I would suggest you do your research. I have had horrible luck with Chinese/Mexican made bearings and it is hard to find anything else. Even company's like Moog which is a product I sold in the past and was of high quality outsources bearing manufacture to other countries but if you look at there website they say they are an American company but fail to mention most of there products are made elsewhere. I have had to redo jobs on personal vehicles because of short term failure and while they did warrantee the product it was a high labor job so not worth it in the long run. By the way once a rotor glows red like you described the bearings should be replaced even if still tight or they can fail in the future.
All sealed automotive style Bearings use rollers. use engine oil when pressing. leave axle out in the cold and take it in when ready to install Bearing. Put bearing in oven on a low heat so as not to melt the side seals and grease. and press away. Reuse the metal shim and that is all you need.
That said I assume then it doesn't matter which way it is installed as in no front or back to it?
The metal shim you mentioned i assume is between the drum backing plate and the axle flange?
Doesn't the 4 bolt bearing retaining plate use some sort of gasket as well? I thought I saw something when I removed it like a paper gasket type? Maybe someone used some RTV under the cover?
Yes sorry I meant round ball. and forgot to mention the gaskets on either side of the metal retainer shim. All ovens are different but usually the warm setting works just keep an eye out to make sure it is ok. This freezing and warming step is not required but makes it go together a lot easier. But have done plenty not using this method.
Last edited by barnbird; 02/02/2108:06 PM. Reason: forgetfulness
I can't prove it but I think I saw a faded trace of the N on top of the diff near the yoke. I tried to take pictures but none of them came out.
I also removed all the brake lines from the prop valve back and replaced the main vain line which I determined is 1/4 inch not 3/16. I also replaced the left front short 3/16 line.
I am trying to find out from Ames what brand axle bearing they use
Hi, I think I know the answer but is this used axle price way to much? $130 bucks. Doesn't sound like the seller will budge on the price. I have a feeling its the same guy that is selling that overpriced 67 BOP rear.
I just ordered my wheel cylinders, shoes, hardware kit, and over the rear diff flexible line
update: just tried to bleed the front brakes with my daughters help and heard (and saw fluid) the front wheel cylinder blow. oh well now i have to order two fronts
Seems high to me. I just sold the ones from my GTO for $90 each. I would also be a little concerned about the obvious rust on the shaft. Looks to me like it was sitting outside in the weather.
Poor man's disc brakes are to leave the drums and work with what you have. but if you have the money go for it. Yes the drums separate from the hubs. My memory being fuzzy as it is I can't remember if it's with the center hub or the lugs. I think it's the lugs but just look and you will see the are swaged just in front of the drum face. If so drive them out with a brass drift. If you are considering putting the original 4 piston caliper rotors on those hubs they won't fit.
Barnbird is correct, they are swagged onto the hub with the lug studs. Careful when you drive them out, I shattered one of the drums doing it so I could install slide off drums back in the day. Wear safety glasses.
Thanks, Original 4 piston front brakes are not even on the table.( hence the poor mans front discs) I will use my stock drum spindles and they don't need any modification.
I think i will end up using this kit https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=67 I need to confirm but i think this kit makes the front track width a bit narrower instead of moving the offset outward like other kits. I had stock single piston nova front discs on my 67 BBC camaro i used to have and i was impressed with the stopping power.I assume these single piston small rotor kits should be close in performance and good enough for me. Certainly better then drums. As far as separating my worn out drums from their hubs my research shows normal style rotors are much cheaper then the one piece i need to buy for this kit. I will probably not waste my time trying to separate my hubs but we will see.
So all this disc upgrade idea has come as a result of trying to get my crappy drum brakes to work again. The front left i ended up swapping the whole backing plate assembly from my other sub frame after the wheel cylinder blew. Why not buy a new wheel cylinder? Simple, i do not want to put any money into the front drum brakes at all, i just wanted to be able to move this parts car around the yard safely. And some kind of front disc upgrade was always in the plans . Now onto the front right side. This side was even worse with another seized wheel cylinder, Drum is worn thin, and the wheel bearing was dragging badly. Since my other sub-frame is now under the snow this side will have to wait. All the brake-work i do will eventually transfer to the other shell. So I found my self looking at the crappy header on the passenger side.
So I am attaching pictures of what has to be the worst header to ever come off a Pontiac? It was terrible to get it out. I thought this is supposed to be the easy side? I probably should have drained the oil and pulled the filter out of the way but i struggled until it gave up. Now i definitely need to remove the filter to get my used replacement header back in there. prior owners had also ran the trans cooling lines right in the way. Found more wires that go no where as well as vacuum hoses.
Why did i bother trying to replace the header now? One because i am at a standstill on the front brake. Two i want to know is these better headers fit And three, since there are no floors at all and the motor smokes all the interior fills up with stinky smoke the last time i tried to drive it. So i figured maybe I can run some temporary straight pipes away from the drivers seat. The collector flanges were rotted off the headers that came with the car
Check out these pics! Do I win the worst header prize?
Well I finally bit the bullet and placed my order for my axle and bearings from Ames performance. $335 bucks total for one axle, bearing and seal kit for two sides and wheel studs. Ouchy wasn't expecting this but on the other hand I am glad I found the bad axle and bearings before I tried driving off.
I got kind of frustrated and overwhelmed trying to price shop around. Rock auto was out of stock for the axle I was going to get. Dutchman axle on ebay left me with questions and when I asked for answers he told me to order off their website which lead to more unanswered questions and they couldn't tell me where their bearings were from which turned me off. I am not going through all that work for unknown bearings brand. Doesn't make sense to sell a quality axle with possibly crappy bearings. They install the bearings and retainers for no extra charge which would be great if they knew what kind of bearings they are using. And if you have them leave the bearings loose it still cost the same. In addition their axle flange does not have the access hole for installation and putting it in is an extra charge.
Well today after cleaning up and prepping some brake components for paint like the backing plate and e cable bracket I decided to get a better look at the prior owners spark plug wire job. They were obviously way to long and upon closer inspection were a mess.
4 out of 8 wires were completely dead as in my digital meter wouldn't show any reasonable resistance instead they were open. Two of the four remaining wires had bad insulation breaks and one of the wire ends was just laying in the distributor cap hole with no boot or anything to hold it in place. I had some used wires that came off my truck not sure if they are compatible but my word they have to be better then what was on there.
How in the world did this motor run? Are Pontiac's that magical they will still run with only half their plug wires conducting? I also found the pcv valve had no vacuum hose attached. Further inspection showed the rubber fuel line was kinked in half right next to the fuel pump. But I promise you this did run and was kind of snappy with the throttle blips. Maybe all the smoke was partly caused by non firing cylinders? Also found no connection to the temp sensor and a oil pressure line that goes no where and about a half dozen other small gauge wires that go no where.
Thank God I don't need this car as dependable transportation. I guess this car makes good covid stay at home time entertainment.
Well as my luck goes (almost always bad luck) Looks like now I need to buy two new bearing retainer plates. I started to prep the first axle for a new bearing and was going to clean and paint the retainer plates when I discovered one had been welded and booger ed up I tried to save it but I don't have the right de-burring bits. Then I found the second plate was cracked anyways. The welded plate came from the side with the toasted axle etc and wonder if this hack job contributed to the failure? Figures I already made my run to Ames
I though this post would be showing my new axle assembled.
Hey experts, Is there a seal that goes in this plate like a GTO? or is it just the paper type gasket? I saw this image on eBay when looking for new retaining plate
ok guys i am sure you all know this but don't do what i did even if it was your wife's idea which it was.
I had cleaned up some parts and painted with rust converter and after a week they still hadn't cured. First i tried leaving them on the house heating duct vents and that didn't work. Then i tried putting an electric heater on them for a half day and that helped a little but not enough. Then i was trying a hair dryer and my wife walked up and said why don't you just use the oven? I said because they are painted. She said so what as long as your not cooking food at the same time. So stupid me jumped at the chance. I put them in when the oven was cold so i could easily place them on the rack. Then i was preheating to 350 and was going to bake them for like 20 minutes after the oven hit its temperature. Well as soon as it reached 350 I got some bad fumes and immediately shut the oven off and put on the fan. To bad though because it worked like a charm and i have to do a second coat and no i will never use our oven again.
Well today I drained the oil for the first time since i acquired this parts car, (still trying to get that header in past the oil filter adapter) It was super stinky like gas I think, and I drained about 7 quarts! I assume between it being over filled and saturated with gas would be two more reasons why that motor smoked so bad. Yes I know that is real bad and the rings could be washed out.I didn't do it I am the victim.
The header still won't slide in between the head and the engine cradle. I don't understand why there is so little room there?
At least you know the rings won't be stuck in the grooves. I have only installed 3 sets of headers on first gens in my time and they were all 4 tube hooker. Without a lift there is Absolutely no reason not to disconnect the motor mounts and raise the motor with either a crane, hoist or by jacking. It's simple quick and makes the job much easier. Also check for bad rubber motor mounts and missing support braces from control arm bolt to bottom of metal part of mount. I saw this once in a cobbled up car and the motor sat so low the front of the pan was rubbing on the crossmember even though the rubber mounts were new. Also I assume by your lack of asking that you know the reasons why gasoline ends up in the oil?
Gas in the oil from my holly sprinkler. I did not know standard procedure was to lift the motor off the mounts to install headers but i was considering it. Problem is i don;t think i can get my hoist in the garage its to small to get it around the car which is on stands and the rear end is still apart.
My motor is for sure sitting low looks like the framestand motor mount is sagging where it hangs off the back of the engine cradle, so i assume the brace you mentioned is also missing. I did put a jack under the motor and after a lot of trouble i finally got the new used header in place. I will do some research to find the motor mount brace you mentioned. Being my first Pontiac I am not familiar with it. I did also notice the oil pan is incredibly close to the engine cradle.
I don't know if it's standard procedure either but just did it because I had to with the type of headers and setup I was dealing with at the time. Don't just assume it's only a carb problem with gas in the oil other causes are a bad fuel pump leaking it directly into the crankcase, poor running engine and a choke that never opens all the way. Here is a picture of the mounts and associated parts from Harold B's site. https://www.firebird400ho.com/mdocuments-library/ in section 6 engine mechanical v-8 figure 6-76
Wow never heard of a bad fuel pump leaking gas into the crankcase. How does that even happen? The piece of crap Holley on it never had a working choke i just held it open. You could literally see gas leaking on the intake and i did assume internal gas leaking as well. And poor running engine yes.
Hey Barnbird I tried to take pictures of the underside of both motor frame mounts. There is a bracket there that is horizontal that goes no where. Also I had already seen the 4 piece brackets i am suppose to have and you right the bottom support brackets are missing. Thank you for the link though
Thanks Amervo I had already tried that and no way that can happen. I got the right side header in from the bottom after jacking the motor up some. And also the motor mount is sagging from no support bracket
Those are 6 cyl. support brackets. That is why they don't fit or reach. It is hard to tell but I'm pretty sure from your second picture you have the right plates that mount from the frame to the rubber mount. You Just need to get the v-8 support brackets jack the motor and install.
Thanks Barnbird. I believe the the top plates that sit on the engine cradle look correct . Doesn't look like i can purchase those missing support brackets separately? I have to buy the whole 4 piece set. Also question on my pinion seal. Advance auto shows one type without the flange and Ames shows another like this with the flange. Which one do i need?
Diaphragm going bad in pump. This is another reason to check your oil often, you don't have to taste it but you should be sniffing it to catch before it ruins seals and or motor.
thanks Barnbird, I just can't wrap my head around how a pump that is external and pumps gas externally up to the carb could get into the oil pan. I do understand fuel pumps go bad
Should I assume mine is bad and buy a replacement or is there a way to test mine out? I Can't run the motor yet
One side of the diaphragm sits on the oil side where a fulcrum ( powered by the cam) pushes the diaphragm up and down. It the diaphragm leaks, gas flows from the gas side to the oil side. Happens more often than you want to know.
Didn’t mean to scare you because it doesn’t happen that often, but you should be aware of the symptoms. If it was me I would put in a newer mechanical pump designed to work on today’s fuels. No real need to go electric.
Well the drivers side rotted header came off without a fight. (not counting the impossible to get at bolts) To get the replacement in will be a different story
Hi all, Are most of you here running log exhaust manifolds or long branch or headers for street rides? Are the cast log manifolds that restrictive for a stock build?
I'd clean up a pair of stock logs just to get the car running and driving, after that if I needed more power I'd buy a set of long branch from Ames or RARE. I've run logs on several stock GTO cars and still had good power for when I needed it. If you ever have to change a stock starter on a header car, you'll miss the stock logs.
Thanks Duff that is basically what I was thinking. And yes I had to change the starter with headers on a dirt surface. not fun. I think I am done trying to make these headers fit. I don't think they were meant for a first gen F body anyways. I bought them knowing they might not fit. the seller guessed they were second gen
But today I think I made a good score. Comparing to Franks Pontiac parts and ebay prices I think I did well.
I got a set of stock 70 400 rod and pistons.( my 400 has a crank but did not come with rods and pistons) Hope to do a stock rebuild.
Set of log manifolds with an extra
Set of valve covers with drippers ( my 400 did not come with valve covers)
And a good oil pan ( my 400 came with a trashed and patched pan) All for $100
557 stock bore 400 he is asking $350 and a short shart BOP turbo 350 don't know how much a stock cast 4 barrel intake I might go back for he wants $40 He had like two more sets of rods and pistons ( i am sure i am the only dumb person who would want these) some kind of special race flex plate brand new and more
I picked up a 1979 ram air III 400 for 200 bucks last summer front right two cylinders are rusted and it's stuck, but the block is good and the heads are good, I'm had the cylinders soaking with marvel mystery oil and can o croil for a few months now, I bought my 68 350 for 275 bucks, was a 265 hp motor out of a 68 bird, it was rebuilt by the original owner, 068 cam now and a 4 brl intake, I did all new gaskets oil pump fuel pump water pump edelbrock intake and demon 650 carb with hei ignition she fired right up third crank on the stand!!! If you take your time look around and make some good contacts you can find parts pretty reasonable. I buying two more 400's off the same guy I got my ram air III from for the same price I got it for figure it would be a good investment for myself and possibly to make a lil cash back
Yes I believe they did due to a contractor problem do to special rods.
Is it a RA3 form another year that was put in it? I assume you verified the block code and such. If its a true RA3 then nice score!
Cant wait for summer... 68HO4004spvert Sleddog Iowa
God Bless the men and women past and present that have served this country. Thank you. Support D.A.V. - it helps gives a life back to those who gave so much for us.....
So I got my log manifolds all cleaned up and painted with high temp paint. I had to drill out the studs and put in helicoils. They will have to heat cure once the motor is running again.
Also I put in the axle seal, finished the one rear brake job, got my drums turned. Started to put my new axle shaft assembly together and hit a wall. The axle shaft came with two lock rings and the bearing came with one as well. So now I have three different lock rings none of which match what came off the original axle. All three are different sizes. Are these a critical measurement? Do they even contact any surface other then holding the bearing on the shaft? I tried looking at google and utube for answers and even called Ames. They didn't know . The lock rings are different od id and width but they were cold in my garage so i will remeasure the id once they get more ambient
As far as clearing the axle tubes since they are so much smaller in outside diameter then the bearing I can't see that being a concern diameter wise. But width wise I could see an issue.
So basically width wise what I have for clearance is the distance between the pressed on bearing and the axle tube seal?
Given your advice I can rule out the widest lock ring so its down between the next two whichever has the best pressed fit size?
thanks
wish I didn't mix them up the one that came with the axle is probably the winner. I thought it was going to be the one that came with the bearing.
Your welcome ,I have done so many of these in the past that when springs are on incorrectly they pop right out at me. I could have said nothing but I figured that wasn't the nice thing to do.
Thanks again Barnbird and I always welcome constructive criticism. It will be corrected. right now i am waiting on my first real brake spring tool. I am tired of screw drivers and pliers trying to assemble these drum brake springs.
I was hoping to get your advice on the axle bearing lock ring and my fuel pump question.
I have always used the original ring but Hokie gave you good advice. As far as the pump, for yard driving fix your carb. and runability issues first, change oil and keep a nose instead of an eye on it. when it comes to your final road worthy product spend the money they are not really that much and get one through Ames. The main difference you will find with oe style pumps is with or without a return line. Also on your brakes do not get the big scissor all in one tool it is cumbersome and sucks. get the one piece return spring remove and install tool and also a separate hold down spring tool, get the one that has a flippable head for 2 different diameter springs and you will be able to use it on modern vehicles also. On your brakes was the thrust washer missing on the small end of the adjuster ? they often are from former hack brake jobs done in the past and will cause the adjuster to bind in the future stripping teeth off the wheel and ruining the self adjusting feature. What did you use for lube on both ends of the adjuster? oil is ok but white lithium grease is best just don't over use or when the brake heat gets to it it will find it's way on the shoes causing locking problems. Don't use regular grease as it's to thick and will bind when mixed with brake dust in the future. Also take some channel locks and close up your return spring ends a little. Lastly if your greasy paws left marks on the shoes sand off before you install drums.
The original lock rings were cut off. At this point I can pick the best fitting replacement. I would think the one that came with the axle would be matched best but I will measure again and again
Since I just spent the money on good oil I would prefer to know if the fuel pump is in fact contaminating my oil before I ruin the new oil and filter. I can always use the new fuel pump on this motor or if the 400 ever gets built. Not to mention this car has obviously sat for many years neglected.
The scissors brake tool is the one i was going to get but i will see if i can cancel my order.
Did the stock Firebird ever use a return fuel line? I don't even have a tank. motor was run off a jug under the hood
And yes no washer was on the brake adjusters when I took them apart
Lube on both ends of the adjuster? Didn't know that was a lube point but i used brake grease on the threads. Should I clean off the brake grease and use white lithium? So the slotted end need lube or the internals on each end need lube?
Are there supposed to be any other washers or clips that could be missing? Lets assume worst case for prior hack job and lack of experience for me
I do always make sure to clean my shoes, pads, drums, and rotors squeaky clean
Yes the lock rings only job is to hold the bearing in place from the backside and the outside bearing retainer plates job is to hold the outer bearing race in place and keep from spinning from the outside. for a yard car that won't be put on the road for quite awhile I would have put in run of the mill oil with a separate zinc additive but to each there own. As far as a return line it was used on all high performance and also a/c cars because of the increased under hood temperatures and associated vapor lock problems. If it were me I would get the one with the return line and just plug the third nipple for now and when it comes time to get your new sending unit get the corresponding one and add the line. The tools I am referring to are here https://shop.snapon.com/product/Brake-Spring-Tools/Brake-Spring-Tool/BT11 and here https://shop.snapon.com/product/Brake-Spring-Tools/Brake-Retainer-Spring-Tool/B1356E I have snap on but other company's make the same tools which will work just fine for a hobbyist. Remember to get a hold down tool with a flippable head for the smaller and regular sized springs. Also if you don't have one a brake spoon with angles like this one will help out with the adjusting https://shop.snapon.com/product/Automotive-Brake-Adjusting-Tools/Brake-Adjuster/B3404B Yes lube on both ends the washer goes on the small end and yes lube the insides only. When you say brake grease It is just a generic grease some company put that name on. I have no idea of it's thickness or it's ability to withstand low and very high temps so your guess is as good as mine. No other clips but can't see by your picture if the equalizer bar anti rattle spring is in place. Also look at the teeth on the star wheel closely if even one is nubbed off on the edges when the wheel turns to that spot the self adjuster mechanism will stop functioning so just replace.
Actually I bought the good oil but haven't physically put it in yet, Engine is empty right now trying to make sure all the gas is out. so I could get cheaper oil.
I did use the caliper grease on the threads very lightly and on the small slot end internal but did not put the missing thrust washer i was unaware of.
I will look at the teeth under a magnifying glass my eyes are really failing me.
I like your idea about getting a pump with the return line and plugging it for now.
how much zinc additive will i need with generic oil?
the log manifold gaskets i got at the parts store are metal, Do i use any sealer?
Does it make any sense to premix the rear end gear oil with the posi additive?
My memory is poor but to me that looks Pontiac, the straight on inlet and especially the bolt on throttle bracket lever. See if you can get the numbers to chase down.
Buy the zinc from the parts store and follow directions. Put a thin layer of high temp rtv on both sides of the gasket will take up any pitting imperfections and hold in place for installation. No don't premix because you will probably have leftover gear oil in your container after you fill to the check hole while diff is level. No haven't touched the car lately been doing a lot of snowmobiling usually 100 miles or more each ride. Been a great winter for snow and cold temps in the mountains near me but unless things change it's coming to a close quickly.
No partially apart. I got ripped off buying parts off this board and need to get the damaged part I bought repaired. Snowmobile is pure racing 170 hp 2 stroke power.
Unfortunately he is on the left coast. If close enough he would have defiantly gotten a visit. And your right he is a scumbag he lied twice in writing about his part being original with factory numbers but sent a cheap used aftermarket part packaged poorly that then damaged the more expensive part it was shipped with. So incompetent as well as a scumbag. And he is still peddling parts on this board. I am sure I am not the last person he will try and mislead.
I don't know the rules of this Board but I saved my correspondence with him in case he inevitably denies it. This was no honest mistake. I personally don't think he should be thrown off the Board but should not be allowed to cast his net and sell parts here.
The kits are universal and usually come with an extra spring and those clips. I believe they are to hold the e-brake arm on different applications. Looks good, just make sure the top anchor pin retainer behind the top spring anchor points is on the second shouldered step. it looks ok but hard to tell from the picture. Also the key to that bottom spring that you had on wrong and not have to remember which way it goes is to just make sure there is no contact on the star wheel with any part of the spring. There is something else I forgot to mention that I see quite often which is to check for stuck pistons in the new cyl. before installation. Unfortunately these parts can sit on a shelf for quite a while before they are sold and put into use and you will find one or both pistons stuck in the bore. This happens because the pistons are aluminum and the bore iron/steel and they are assembled dry. if stuck they should be disassembled and you will find built up deposits on the pistons that will need to be removed but do not use sand paper because you will destroy the aluminum/anodized finish. Usually brake fluid and a fingernail will do the job. Take care of the bore also. clean thoroughly with brake fluid when done and assemble with brake fluid and nothing else or you will harm the hydraulic system. This will also help prevent them from sticking during a long dormant period during a restoration. Oops just noticed your e-brake cable is not fully seated in the backing plate.
A few other tips. Make sure and look at the backing plate stops where the shoes ride for wear as it is quite common with high mile old diffs. and will cause problems down the road. Make sure they are flat and if slightly grooved or dished re dress with a file or gently with a grinder. if to deep or actually worn through they will need to be filled/welded and re ground. The other 2 things are for people that are resurrecting old cars and reusing used parts. Make sure and flush the hydraulic system fully with clean fluid before reattaching the line because obviously you don't want any of that sediment and moisture filled fluid being sent through your new parts while bleeding. Make sure you flush the system with new fluid every 5 years or so as brake fluid is hygroscopic and gets moisture laden from all the heating and cooling cycles and this is what rusts and ruins cylinders calipers and master cylinders from the inside. This goes for your newer daily driver vehicles also unless dot 5 fluid, as this will save you a lot of money and down time. If your e-brake cable is good and reusing feed motor oil inside with a needle oiler while hanging and working cable and the cable will last forever.
I did make sure that top anchor see saw thingy was seated as good as it could. I did at first get paint in it and it wasn't seated. The new wheel cylinders i think are fine as i was able to push those pin things in each side of it. The pads you mentioned that the shoes ride against were in good shape and were lightly lubed. The whole brake system was empty and is getting well flushed. That is something I do on all my cars as i found out the hard way how contaminated fluid rots the brake lines.
So now that my rear brakes are done I assembled my axles and installed them. But the new Yukon axle appears to have been made wrong. The back of the wheel studs actually rub against the wheel cylinder.
I thought at first i was going to have to clearance the back side of the studs just a tad but then I installed the other side with the original axle and saw there is a huge difference in clearance. Before you ask I made absolute certain my axle bearings are pressed on all the way to the shoulder on the axle. Also i made sure the bearings were fully seated in the axle housing.
Tried to measure the difference between the new and old axle but is difficult with the bearing and retainer plate in the way but there is somewhere between a quarter and a half inch difference. So now i am screwed.
Strange, is that normal to have that much material on the back side of the stud. I add am used to seeing like an eighth of an inch, that looks like a quarter. What about pressing in new studs.
I think the bearing shoulder on my new axle is machined incorrectly and off at least a quarter inch if not more. This crap only happens to me
I stood my old axle and the new one next to each other and you can with your eye (even my bad eyes) that they are clearly different and causing the hub to sit to far inboard.
Those are the new studs I got from Ames when I got the axle And bearing kit
So a small update. I emailed Ames over the weekend and showed my pictures and no surprise did not hear back from them so I just called. He wanted a measurement and told to use a tape measure from the axle bearing shoulder to the end of the splines.
Any guesses on what I found?
Well the old original axle measures 27 inches and the new one measures 27 and 1/2!
Holy crap a half inch! no wonder its hitting my wheel cylinder. Now waiting to hear back on what they can do about it.
He said he never heard of this happening and I said its because the unheard of crap only happens to me. Seriously when i have car repairs to do its never the common solution its always the bizarre.
If the new axle is 1/2 inch longer than the old one, why isn't it further from the wheel cylinder instead of closer. Maybe I'm not looking at it right.
“Unheard of crap only happens to me.†Man I know how you feel. My wife and I have been saying that for years. And we have a name for it. Because our last name starts with a “P†we call it the “P†Factor. We continue to say.... “it could have been M, N or O†LOL. .
Jim he is measuring from the outside bearing race surface another words as far as the bearing can be pressed on, to the end of the splined end of the shaft. Apparently they machined the bearing surface stop out to far towards the axle face causing the axle to be sucked a 1/2 inch deeper into the diff. At least that's what I can figure out from what has been written.
Frankie at the risk of rubbing salt in the wound, this whole situation could have been avoided almost painlessly in the beginning when you first got the axle. Back in my younger mechanic days One of the first things I was taught when replacing parts was to pull it out of the box and closely compare to the old part even taking measurements if needed. When I shortcutted or just forgot this step it would inevitably almost always bite me in the backside. Believe me when I say you did not want to face your boss because in a repair shop which of course is a business time is money and I had just thrown the shops money and in some cases the part out the window for no good reason. In later years when I ran a shop I would run into this same problem with the revolving door of young trainee mechanics over the years and even some more experienced guys who could never get it through there thick heads. This is not to bash you but to help you and any one else who is dabbling in mechanics with classic cars because even though time in most of our cases is not money for us the aggravation part is much worse.
Well Barnbird the money situation is actually worse then the aggravation although they are almost tied. The thing I read before ordering the axle was to make sure the overall lengths were the same. That was the first thing I checked when I got it The axles are the same overall length. I was unaware that the bearing shoulder dimension could be a potential problem. This was the first Ames has heard of. And yes you are right it could have been avoided.
Speaking of could have been avoided I think I have the wrong drivers side log manifold.
Can you confirm? It is to close to the steering box to get the down-pipe flange lined up. Passenger side fits great.
Stuff happens and you just have to move forward but have resolve that your never going to let this happen to you again. As far as the manifolds you must have missed that I commented in your other thread about them that first gens used a center outlet on the drivers side to avoid just what you are running into. You need to mock the other side also because even though most or all models used a rear outlet they can have different angles and clocked rotations for the flange.
Yes I totally missed your comment about the center port logs. On the bright side I didn;t actually pay for these they were thrown in as a bonus when I bought the pan and valve covers.
The stuff that happens to me I call lessons hard learned and I always try to avoid repeat mistakes. (Provided I remember)
A couple center port logs I found on ebay have 6 bolt holes and mine have 4 is the six ok to use? The current heads have only 4 tapped holes but if I ever get to use my 6x-4 I am not sure if they have 6 or 4 holes i will have to dig them out to check.
Also kind of against your advice I bought a new fuel pump for a few reasons. Do I need to lube anything before installing it? Like the lever and spring? I did read that I need to make sure the lever tip goes under that eccentric cam driven wheel thing but no one mentions lube? Is it all lubed with engine oil during use?
I did just buy a couple used but nice down pipes but that is all I have for exhaust for now. I had hoped to get my logs on then these down pipes and just stick some cheap mufflers on just so I can hear the motor better.
Has anyone actually made a drivers side rear port log work on a first gen? Just curious because it is so close to being ok
First of all as Barnbird stated this could have been all avoided. That said I feel I should get a new guy pass since this axle is supposed to be for my car. Turns out it is a more universal fit and those spacers I tried to get answers on were the solution. Even though Ames did not tell me or zero instructions or warnings or any note of any kind on the box. Also I found no warnings or heads up during my axle selection research before my purchase. Anyway Ames basically said it was my fault and the .500 wide spaced that came with the axle was for that exact purpose. I was suppose to know to press the half inch spacer before I pressed the bearing on.
Ok Barnbird I got my axle bearing spacing resolved. Now I put my brake drums on and see yet another problem I did not know I needed to check before assembly. The original axle hub sticks through the drum enough for the wheel to ride on but the new replacement Ames axle does not. It is basically flush with the drum face and yes it is seated all the way.
Frankie you are just burying yourself. I thought you said lesson learned? This is another thing that is easily seen with the naked eye without even the need to measure. Even if you are to inexperienced to know if something that is different between your old and new parts actually matters you don't just let it go or you are setting yourself up for failure and the why me syndrome. You post here and better yet contact the seller and get a solid answer. Firebirds use a hub and lug centric wheel. rally 2s and some Aftermarket aluminum wheels use lug centric only for our cars. Lug centric can have inherent centering problems with worn lug holes causing vibrations. I am a stock type of guy in my old fart years and that axle would not satisfy me. Now that you have it all pressed together again you will have to contact the seller and see what they have to say, maybe they will say it's fine but for me personally I would have turned away from it as soon as I spotted these things. With good rims it should be fine. Good luck and I wish you the best.
So you are saying its 100 percent my fault? And that Ames was not responsible for selling me the correct axle? All they do all day every day is sell Pontiac parts and I can't depend on them to sell me the right part? Is this what you are saying? My entire reason behind buying from Ames was in the belief their experience would get me the right parts where my lack of Pontiac experience was at risk for situations like this. The boneheads at advance auto down the street have a better track record for getting me the right parts.
Barnbird I literately have some brain damage from the accident that disabled me. I am constantly struggling to do things correctly that i have never done before but with my damage I have like a tunnel vision and have to totally focus on one task at a time. Unfortunately this results in more injuries and screw ups. I joined this forum for advice and support so that I can in fact restore this car. I know I need this help now and it is hard to ask for because I like doing everything myself. I guess I should seriously consider selling all my Pontiac stuff and go back to my familiar Chevy's
We all need help at times That is why I am trying to give you straight talk. I think you are right though and I've veered off course trying to help you understand when I should be just answering the basic question that was asked. It will happen no more.
So you are saying its 100 percent my fault? And that Ames was not responsible for selling me the correct axle? All they do all day every day is sell Pontiac parts and I can't depend on them to sell me the right part? Is this what you are saying? My entire reason behind buying from Ames was in the belief their experience would get me the right parts where my lack of Pontiac experience was at risk for situations like this. The boneheads at advance auto down the street have a better track record for getting me the right parts.
Barnbird I literately have some brain damage from the accident that disabled me. I am constantly struggling to do things correctly that i have never done before but with my damage I have like a tunnel vision and have to totally focus on one task at a time. Unfortunately this results in more injuries and screw ups. I joined this forum for advice and support so that I can in fact restore this car. I know I need this help now and it is hard to ask for because I like doing everything myself. I guess I should seriously consider selling all my Pontiac stuff and go back to my familiar Chevy's
If you're more familiar with chevy, keep your firebird and just install a chevy drivetrain.
I could do that duff but I don't have any Chevy drive-trains I could use. Also if I did that then I would be to tempted to make it into my long lost Camaro. We all know I should not do that.
Just posting some information I came across while looking at other aftermarket axles. Where Ames did not provide this valuable information I noticed that this axle from summit does.
Summit Racing Part Number: SPZ-35060
This axle comes with 2 spacers to accommodate multiple axle bearing options. The spacer needs to be installed before the bearing is pressed on: The thin spacer 1/2 in. is used with sealed RW507CR bearings, and the thick spacer .826 in. is used with set 9 bearings.
Also this axle looks in the picture that it would protrude past the drum face for stock wheels to ride on.
It would've been helpful, and it should be in the AMES parts description, but it wasn't, anymore, a guy building an old car HAS to double check everything when he orders and after he receives the parts. I do tons of research before I order anything, and I still run into a lot of ill fitting or poorly made pieces, just mark it as a lesson learned and focus on the next task. A 67-69 firebird is a lot better looking car ( says me) than a camaro, and I wouldn't have any issues installing a built sbc into one.
I hear you Duff but since I have two Pontiac motors and no SBC then it would cost me more to that and since I am poor that is not an option but thanks for the suggestion
Adam from Ames called me today despite my request to speak to the owner. Adam claims these Firebirds are lug centric and not hub centric making my concern about the hub hat being flush with the drum face a none issue to them. I might just buy a used axle and try to sell this new one. whether its really OK doesn't matter to me as much as I hate the way it looks. I am going to avoid doing business with Ames
Kevin one of the Ames owners just gave me a courtesy call. He was very nice and understanding. He did say they have been selling this axle for ten years with no issues. He said the Firebirds are lug centric only and the hub hat protrusion makes no difference. Even the factory hub hats are tapered so it doesn't matter what wheel you run it would never be hub centric. He wasn't to happy my spacer question never got answered and that i never got my promised call back. He was very understanding on my spacer issue and agreed there should be note in the box of every axle sold and is working to do that Also he offered to refund my second bearing cost I just had to buy from Adam.I told him he has gained back my future business.
Cant wait for summer... 68HO4004spvert Sleddog Iowa
God Bless the men and women past and present that have served this country. Thank you. Support D.A.V. - it helps gives a life back to those who gave so much for us.....
So I have been tidying a few odds and ends like some wiring, Put the diff cover back on and filled with gear oil and posi additive. Replaced all the brake hard lines and finally have a pedal. Filled the motor back up with oil and zinc additive and pulled the coil wire to crank it over to let the oil circulate. Then I put the coil wire back on and sprayed some carb cleaner in the primary's (there is no fuel tank). Turned the ignition key (which did not work before redoing some wiring) and holy crap it fired up until the carb cleaner ran out. Don't want to run it to long anyways in my garage under the house and smoke out and piss off the wife. But i am very excited. Oh yeh I also dumped the rotted headers for stock logs and also now have the first section of down pipes. Last year when I ran the motor it was super smoky and with no floors it sucked just to try to yard drive (not to mention zero brakes). The down-pipe ends right at my seat base so I probably will need another section of pipe to keep the fumes away from my face. Next chance I get I will roll it outside and fill my gas jug and see if it will run and idle etc then I need to check my float levels. Once it runs and moves on its own power It will get parked outside and then I have to drag the other 68 Shell inside and begin actual restoration work. Before anyone asks yes I did all this work on my parts car just so I can move it around my yard. I am so done pushing and dragging this car. Plus now I can get better feel on the health of the motor (or the sickness of it) And test anything else I want to transfer onto the shell project. And I will also be able to run the 350 with straight pipes periodically for motivation. I have an annoying loud neighbor I would get satisfaction by throwing some Pontiac v8 noise back at him.
Wow, you got some things to do dude- get busy! ANd I would like to hear your neighbors response when you ge tto throw the Poncho noise his way , he he he
Cant wait for summer... 68HO4004spvert Sleddog Iowa
God Bless the men and women past and present that have served this country. Thank you. Support D.A.V. - it helps gives a life back to those who gave so much for us.....
So today i put some gas in my little jug to feed the carb. Goal was to set the float levels. I Got the car to run but was having a hard time tweaking the external float level adjustment. I think there is something wrong there but its probably me.The secondary lock screw won't stop leaking and..........I discovered why my motor was full of fuel. With the motor off I could hear something running. Turns out fuel was gushing into the carb even with the fuel line disconnected! Tried for a while to set the primary float but the carb has more issues then i can count. It leaks externally, and pours internally. I was considering trying to rebuild it. (no i never did a Holley 4 barrel). I am leaning towards trying my first quadrajet.
Also a very strange thing happened. I had the motor running and turned the key off, nothing happened it kept running. Then disconnect neg batt cable and it still ran. Then disconnected the pos cable as well and it still ran! How is this possible? Doesn't the ignition need 12 volts? I finally had to choke out the carb to make it shut off. It was not dieseling either it was running not terrible. At this point I fumed out the basement but no co2 alarms. Done until I can resolve this carb and or replace it, Is it me or does the quadrajet look much simpler then a Holley to rebuild?
On the bright side even though i have straight pipes the log manifolds have quieted things down enough i can hear the motor better and so far no knocks or bad noises but keeping my fingers crossed.