Another question while I'm going to be under the hood next week. I recall talk of starter heat sink problems with the use of long branch exhaust manifolds.

Would it be a good idea to go with one of these smaller high torque starters? Any problems occurring with the use of one with long branch manifolds? I imagine with the smaller size there would be less of heat and clearance issues.

You could try wrapping heat shield around your existing starter motor.

I have LB manifolds and I went back to a stock starter (previously had a small high torque Hamburger brand). I also installed a stock heat sheild (from Ames) on the stock starter. There does not appear to be any clearence issues and thus far no heat transfer issues. I only went stock due to the fact that this I my goal, to be as close to stock as possible. I found no benefit to the high torque $200 starter vs. a $30 stock unit. JMO

GM (part stores) sell a different solenoid spring for $10 that cures heat soak issues without modifying the starter in any way. I do not have that part number, but a search may yield success.

Same starter, new solenoid ($13, just to be certain) and a $10 spring will cure it 95% of the time.

I installed mini starter from RobbMc rotates 360 degrees, weighs 8 lbs, nice piece. I had a problem with mine 2 1/2 months later, sent it back, they fixed it, upgraded it to newer version, had it back in a week, on his nickel. Great guy to talk to, I recommend him if you decide to go in that direction. Kel

No starter-issues after switching to IMI hi-torque starter IMI-108 purchased at RSB motorsports (20 USD below the regular price: http://www.rsbmotorsports.net/product.asp?pf_id=IMI%2D108&dept_id= ).
I run the R.A.R.E. long branch D-port factory headers including the correct R.A.R.E. oil filter adapter with my 400 cci and TH400. Nevertheless had to switch to one of the smallest oil filters available (FRAM extra guard PH3675; http://www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/5853155# ) because of limited space... Less than 1/2 inch of clearance...









Cheers

i think banshee's idea is the best one.why spend 200 on those dorky looking thinkamagiggs

After building a high compression(10.5-1) 400, I installed 2" headers from MadDog, stock starter does not fit between oilpan/headers....don't feel like droppping header to get to starter when needed.

Im in the same boat. I just had my mini rebuilt in april. I already need to have the solenoid rebuilt. I do have the better parts installed. Going to do it one more time. If it takes a crap again im going with the external solenoid switch

Thanks all! I think I'll go with Tom's idea of the heaver spring. I do like the fact that a stock starter is more readily available and less costly.



Geez Thomas, that tight! I would have scraped the LB oil filter adaptor idea and gone with a remote oil filter set up.



Terry, I’m not familiar with that technical jargon.

A remote solenoid will cure ANY problems.

Sorry claus, I do not agree with that. ...A remote solenoid is a bandaid that draws too much on the wiring system...It causes Many other problems that can cost big dollars...I have seen wiring harness burn trying to turn over a heat sunk car with a remote solenoid.

I've owned my 67 400 for 20 years now. Have been stuck in many parking lots over the years waiting for the starting system to cool down.
As much as we work on our cars around here, keeping the Solenoid in good shape is an easy chore, and has proven to be a cure for me. I'm sure next summer I will have to drop the starter again and replace the Solenoid, or at least the contacts. This spring I went through it again, and rotated the contacts 180 degrees, been working like a champ all summer.
Yes I do have a heat shield on the Solenoid, but I dont think it really cured much. You can tell when you get that first slowing of the starter, not worth waiting till you get Stuck:)

Hef

A remote starter doesn't increase draw; it will cause a dramatic decrease in draw, about half of the delco setup. And the spring won't solve the problem. The role of the solenoid is to kick the bendix into the flywheel, nothing more.

The hot start problem isn't a case of the bendix not engaging with the flywheel. The problem is that the armature doesn't turn freely and or fast ENOUGH TO TURN THE ENGINE OVER, regardless to the possible reasons why the armature won't spin fast enough to crank the engine. The solenoid has zero factor in armature operation, the reason why Ames quit selling the heat sheild as a cure for hot start problems.

I just bought a heat sheild from Ames within the last 60 days.

Thomas, do you have correct oil filter housing? I had that exact same issue as your picture shows until I found the correct one, now I have plenty of room and use a stock size oil filter with no problem at all...

If any car has heat sink problems -in relation to the starter, -a remote solenoid will resolve that problem..

-No difference in draw in relation to stock solenoid (on the contrary).

-If wiring harnes burned, -then it was shorted somewhere.. (possibly wire from remote solenoid to starter on the headers).


Here is an article about remote solenoids / heat sink problems:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0312_chevrolet_no_start_fix/

In many years (34+) of trying different ways to start a heat sunk car....I have found that it is always the starter Now I know you disagree with me on the solenoid issue But, try holding the positive cable after you try to start a heat sunk car,,,You will get burned...By moving the solenoid to a different area you are now adding more battery cable to and from the solenoid, This will take a big draw on the battery and will not help the starting issue...I have reached uder my car many times with the key in the on position and jumped the solenoid and the car will start, But all I am doing is by passing the draw from the key to the solenoid...Trust me, a remote solenoid will not cure a heat sunk car, it will still heat sink....Do as banshee says and get a GOOD rebuilt starter and a hi performance (stock looking)solenoid (I think AC delco makes one) and you will have no problems...I suggest you bring your starter to a good rebuilder and NOT your local parts store and tell them your issue they will solve your problem...And I bet they will say to never run a remote solenoid....I have pics of my Ram Air car that always heat sunk with a remote solenoid and pics now without it and it has never failed me...I do also know that over the upcoming years of heat on that starter it will do it again...Well the first sign of that, It will be rebuilt again...It's called life in a Pontiac.

So I guess it was just luck, when after installing a brand new 'powermaster hi torque' with heatsheild wraparound, and ceramic headers (a lot less heat) and engine won't start untill cooled off, and then trying a remote solenoid, with exact same combo -no problems anymore...

-or maybe the remote solenoid was the cure....

I have taken my starter to a reliable starter rebuilder. And had the best of every part put in the starter and the best solenoid. Still after a few months the solenoid is toast.

Don't forget the cables. The factory cables were small relative to what they should be. I'm running 2 Ga. and no problems. I would replace the cables along with the advice on a rebuilt starter before running a remote solenoid.

The stock 4 gauge cables were definitely marginal cables new, and lost efficiency rapidly through oxidation. This is one place that modern is much better than stock.

Guys, It really is not the solenoid, That COULD be part of the problem But the starter is THE problem...GM built the car the way it should be.....I tried running a kill switch to the coil so there would be no spark when heat sunk and the car actually turned over rather quick then as it was turning over I turned the switch on and it fired right up, That was many years ago..Now I just run the car with a good quaility starter and no problems....There again, What works for you is great.

All I can attest to is that after warm up, if I stopped for gas, or something, and shut off the car, it would be a very slow roll when I again turned the key. If I didn't catch it in the first couple of turns I was skrewd. This is before and after new cables(1/0) and new red top battery(in the trunk) install. Old stock starter/sol w/heatshield. Installed a used mini and haven't had a prob since(about six months now). Worked for me.
Cost about:$150.
Being able to start the car whenever I want to: Priceless.
My.02

Robert

In 1968, these cars didn't have heat soak problems. Our roads and shopping malls were not lined with broken down Pontiacs waiting to cool so they could be started and driven home. The starters were factory fresh and they started without episode on the hottest of days. Of course as new parts, they had proper bearing tolerances, good lubrication, decent contacts and the rotor was not rubbing the stator when it was hot.

There's no reason to redesign the car to correct a worn out part such as the starter when the original design was satisfactory. Repair, rebuild, exchange or buy a new starter and fix the problem at the cause.

This ain't no ford and it doesn't deserve that junk added to the firewall. It's not a clean fix. It doesn't address the cause. It leave two more exposed hot terminals to misplaced wrenches on. And it lengthens the wire.

If you relocate the battery to the trunk because you prefer having the weight back there, you need to remember that the longer cables introduce more resistance. If you double the original cable length, you need to go lower by three wire gauge numbers (larger conductor) just to break even. The negative return is just as important as the positive for this calculation, so count both lengths. You don't want cranking current flowing through the car body and fram because it will also flow through transmission and differential bearings etc. and pit them. The frame is steel anyway, so it's a poor conductor.

I guess Powermaster's Hi torque (250 ft. lbs -cranking power for over 18:1 compression, 4,4:1 gear reduction and 3.4HP) starter is not a quality starter..


-Cause when used without remote solenoid, it won't do much when warm.(On my combo at least (Full length headers)

-Even if powermaster claims that there shouldn't be any heatsoak problems, it still has....

-So..

-With a remote solenoid, it fires right up..

Another thing to remember is with full length headers, it creates alot more heat than with original-style exhaust manifolds..

-Proberly the guys at Ford were clever enough to understand that a remote solenoid is a lot more practical thing (space-wise and heatsink-wise) -Or they had smaller enginebays (on mustangs anyway)

-since it's common on musclecar era fords.
-yeah I know this will bring up remarks about ford ;-)

But seriously -a remote solenoid is cheap and an advantage over a solenoid-on the-starter type.

Another culprit could be poor connections. Give both battery connections a wiggle, and see if either of them feel warm.

If so, it is a sign of resistance due to corrosion or connections. The current that should be spinning that motor over is being lost as heat.

Check that the screws securing the cable into the battery clamps are tight. Then work along each cable in turn.

Check where the battery earth joins the chassis, and where the earth strap joins the chassis to the engine. Check the two solenoid terminals for warmth or play, and finally check that the cable is secure on the starter motor.

Amen Claus

I didn't say what was a quality starter. I only said a decent functional starter was indicated to solve these hot-start problems. I said that rewiring the car to limp a failed starter along was just a band-aid. Or at least that is what I meant. I think Merv hinted at that too. Someone here explained the starter cable getting excessively hot. That only happens with a binding rotor. It doesn't happen because the bendix can't operate. A binding motor draws high current. A bendix that won't engage will let the starter spin free without the motor turning. Bad contacts at the starter won't cause the cables to overheat, unless you have rewritten ohms law. The fire would be at the contacts, not the cable. I said fix the problem at the starter where the problem is, rather than to redesign the car.

All that goes out the window if you're building a high compression race car. Then the car is back-halved, and it's value is in the crapper anyway. Might as well have a Nova then.



Explain why. I was there in 1968. I owned a Firebird back then and friends had Chevy SS 396's. My mom owned a 67 Delmont 88 olds and it never failed to start. Others drove their mom's Rambler to school. None of us ever sat their waiting for our cars to cool so we could start them.

Here, it's being suggested to rewire an original car to solve a design problem that doesn't exist. It's rather like recommending pouring in 50 wt oil, saying GM didn't know how to fit rings.

Ford Mustang was first to market. That doesn't mean it was best, or there would be a Mustang project in my garage. I passed one by four years ago.. no rust, six banger for $1500. The buyer back halve it, destroying what was left. Not my cuppa. Reminds me of madman Muntz.

Well your mom proberbly didn't have long tube headers, and 500+ HP on her daily drivers..

-Also alot of your freinds proberbly didn't.

A remote solenoid is not as exposed to heat vs. stock.

-I don't care about 'value' -only the priceless feeling of enjoying a cool car.

Nova's are cool.

-also the high compression ones.

Understand that this is a new starter that I'm referring to.. -not a failed one.

Here's an explanation that should explain the basics:

''Heat builds up electrical resistance, and exhaust systems are all about high temperatures. When you turn the ignition key to start a hot engine, the electrical voltage encounters major resistance and cannot activate the solenoid that has been basking in exhaust and engine heat.

This happens because the large solenoid on the starter pulls 40 to 50 amps at the moment the ignition key is turned to the Start position. That large amount of power must flow through a long circuit from the battery to the dash area, back through the underhood wiring, and finally to the starter. ''
Source: primedia

On our cars, the solenoid's function is to act as a high-amperage switch for the starter motor, and to kick the drive gear into the flywheel teeth.

Does the drive gear mesh with the teeth? No? Solenoid or starter shims.
Does the starter try to turn the engine? No? Solenoid or bad starter.
Does the starter engage properly but turn the engine too slowly? Yes? Starter.

The cars that were built with long branch manifolds 40 years ago did not have hot start issues...if they did there would have been many complaints. Instead, there were different starters offered, the heavy duty starter and solenoid on the higher powered models. This is like the best rebuilt starters, not like the typical discount auto "rebuilt".

http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resou...a_starting1.asp

http://www.indiacar.com/infobank/battery1_od.htm

And the cure:
http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.com/starter_maintenance.htm

If your starter is already degraded from heat, repair it first.

The last article also describes a relay modification. Our cars do not incorporate a starter relay. Converting the long current-carrying ignition circuit to a simple trigger switch by using a relay mounted relatively close to the starter could alleviate the remaining issues. And unlike a remote starter solenoid, this modification can effectively shorten the starter primary circuit and leaves the secondary circuit unaltered.

Well said. Vikki!

Yes indeed well said...

-If starter does not try to turn engine ?
-Bad solenoid. (heat soaked)



-Let's keep in mind we're talking about a brand new -high end- starter that works fine when cold, -but not when warm.

-Solution that is proven and tested : use a remote solenoid.

-Does it work now, when warm?

Yes..

Does the starter try to turn the engine?
No? Solenoid or bad starter.

In this case it's hardly a bad starter, as it works when cold.

Case closed.

Claus, I will type in caps so to clarify, NOT as I am yelling. You have a valid point that worked for you, But I think you only "put a band aid" on it as I think you will find you have a bad starter. ..Anyways here goes...



NOT YET.
ALTHOUGH I AM GLAD YOUR CAR IS WORKING FINE...I ACTUALLY BOUGHT A REMOTE SOLENOID FROM SUMMIT FOR MY RAM AIR BIRD...IT DID NOT HELP...WOULD YOU LIKE IT?..I THREW IT IN THE TOOL BOX TO GIVE TO A FORD FRIEND OF MINE.

No thanks.. One is all I need..

Thanks anyway..

I've been using an IMI-108 mini for 10 years now. I have round port heads, and the bulky factory Delco starter simply wouldn't fit with 1-7/8" primary header tubes. I switched to the 3" RAIV manifolds last year, and I still had to re-clock the IMI mini starter.

Obviously, there is a need for a mini-starter in the Pontiac world. I don't think people buy them for the "bling" factor.

Not only does the IMI-108 mini starter start my car under any conditions, but it's half the weight of a Delco starter. I have a trunk mount 1000 amp Delco battery, 2 gauge to the starter, 0 gauge to a back bumper bolt.

The solenoid does not turn the engine. The starter motor does. The solenoid does act as a high current switch for the starter motor. If switched current is excessive (starter binding from heat or dried out lube) then the contacts from the starter to the solenoid can burn out. Therefore the starter won't turn via the factory solenoid.

The remote solenoid only provides a new starter on/off switch. The original solenoid still provides the true solenoid operation...sending the Bendix forward to engage the starter.

The remote solenoid is not a fix, it is a work-around.

I have Hedman 4 tube Hedders on a '68 Firebird 400 and there is adequate room to easily remove and reinstall the stock starter.

I had those headers and my stock starter fit fine too....after I had the car for a week, my starter went out, I bought one of those $29.99 O'Reilly's starters just to get me by for awhile....4.5 years later, it was still working. When I installed the 2" primary & 3 1/2" collector headers from MadDog, no way stock starter was going to fit, so when I got my RobbMc mini, I gave it to a guy I met at a gas station who had just bought a '67 bird who was having hot start issues....

A agree... this is a bandaid solution that didn't address the root cause.

The solenoid is a copper coil wrapped around an insulating tubular form. An iron core, mounted to slide freely inside the core, is attracted to center itself within the copper coil when power is applied. One end of the solenoid core closes relay contacts to energized to the starter motor windings. The other end releases the fork so the pinion gear can advance into the ring gear for starting. Forces opposing this pull include friction and the return spring which retracts the core to the home position. Replacing that spring with one of lower spring rate, as Banshee suggested, will reduce the force required to pull the core home. This can leave more of the solenoid force available to overcome friction from worn parts or deteriorting lubrication. I think this is one of the more worthwhile suggestions explained here. I would consider this while the part is on the bench for cleaning and rebuilding.

This is a DC circuit, so it will follow ohms law for current draw. The strength with which the solenoid can pull the core to oppose the return spring, and overcome friction in the system is directly related to ampere-turns. That is the number of turns wound on the coil multiplied by the amperage flowing through.

The current flow is directly related to the available voltage and the resistance of the copper wire. Now, lets say the solenoid gets "heat soaked". For arguement's sake, lets say the solenoid went from room temperatures of 25C (77 F) up to 75C (167 F) , for a difference of 50 degrees C. Copper increases resistance by .39 percent per degree C. That means the resistance increased by 0.39 x 50, or somewhat under 20 percent. Current flow will drop the same 20 percent, meaning ampere-turns and therefore pull-in force drops by 20 percent as well.

If the solenoid can't operate with 20 percent less current flow, there is something wrong with the part or something wrong with the part's design. If it is pulling in, as evidenced by a loud click, then the contacts are burned up like Vikki explained. If the contacts were burned, they wouldn't likely work when everything is cool, but pitted burned contacts might act that way too. Just because a part is new or expensive does not mean that it's good.

If the solenoid isn't pulling in when it's hot or isn't capable of energizing the starter because it has burned up contacts, replacing it's relay function at a remote location will solve the problem a bad solenoid caused. You've just replaced a bad solenoid with a good one you mounted somewhere else.

I believe it is all very relative, reading all the opinions and all.

If there was an issue with heat soak with a 326, 350, 400, 400 HO or Ram Air with long braches, there would have been well known documentation (service bulletin) and or an in house fix from GM at the time.

Then we are left with stock configuration versus modified and within that, old degraded parts versus new. Reminds me of the cooling issues Pontiacs have in relation to the wear (and deterioration) of these parts.

Remote solenoids have always (as far as I can remember) been a cheap fast fix for someone who needed to get their car back on the road, but still negated to address the real actual issue (note, I did not say this was improper). Do I support a remote solenoid use for any car? No. It is an individual choice. I do suppose I can state that with any (I mean any) failure of a designed system to start or cool properly, there may be an issue of worn items out of tolerance or specification.

If one was to properly address a complete starting system overhaul, sparing no expense to a complete and proper revamp back to stock, could one make the claim that a car has heat soak issues and that is a (one) specific cause.

I suffered from heat soak issues with headers. I rebuilt the starter and installed the GM spring and a new solenoid. Did I have problems after that? Nope. 5 years later? Nope. I was embarassed to sit at a gas station and have to crawl underneath the car to jump the starter. I had enough balls and common sense to alleviate the problem with forward thinking and basic drawing board solutions. I had the starter rebuilt, ensured the charging system was optimal and did a load test on the battery.

No problems since.

Ok Vikki, but how much heat and abuse can a relay take? From what I've been led to believe about relays, they aren't prone to long life in not prime conditions.

Robert

Well, I have put about 400 miles on our new motor. Last week it was in the 90's and I intentially drove the car everywhere we went for the entire w/e. The car did run a bit warm at times sitting in traffice etc. However, she fired everytime with no issues. I am LB and a stock type $30 starter from Advance Auto w/ a stock heat shield from Ames. So far, so good...

A relay would mount, like a new car, on the firewall or fenderwell. That would keep it cool. The relay carries minimal current compared to the starter switch (a.k.a. solenoid).

I drive my car on many cruises, including hours and hours of stop and go traffic (Woodward). Stock compression 400 auto with air and ps, original radiator, original fan, stock water pump, lots of heat. The ONLY time I had a hot start issue was when we drove to Gary Plowman's house, about 2 1/2 hours on the freeway, stayed just long enough for a thorough heat soak, back on the freeway, then shut it off at a gas station after a few miles. I had to back the timing off about 3 degrees to start it (rather than waiting for it to cool). Starter is at least 25 years old and has not been modified. I start it up and shut it down all the time without issue.

So millions of Fords are driving around with a stock 'band aid' ?

-(I know that some of you guys don't like Fords, -so... here's your chance ;)=

-One advantage, is in any case -Only one wire to starter.

-Easy access to 'bump start' ..

-Do my starter work when cold (or right after a stop) Yes.

-10 mins. after ? No.

-I'll settle for Fords 'band aid'

-Perhaps the starter (if taken apart) is faulty -but it's likely because of the heat. -and it was designed to take more than usual.


-WHo knows.. -I'm taking my bird for a spin....

No, the Ford came from the factory engineered that way. A bandaid is a temporary repair, not a design choice.

Hate Fords? Not really. But I wouldn't buy an old Mustang when my choices include first generation Firebirds or Camaros. I don't hate Novas either, but the styling is lacking IMHO. My mom might have considered a Nova, but a Firebird was to "sports car" to her back in the day. She owned a '67 Delmont 88 with the 350 Rocket. Say what you will about an old soft sprung Olds, but as a 16 year old, I pushed that heavy car pretty hard through the turns when I borrowed it on occasion.

We have two Fords as daily drivers. They serve different goals. Both seem adequately durable and they are somewhat USA content. They both have shortcomings and advantages. Both are superior in different ways. I hated my 82 Dodge truck since the second week of ownership. I could never get the dealer to fix any of the manfacturing mistakes. The service manager asked me "why don't you just drive the truck and stop bring it back to fix problems"? I retaliated with Dodge for it's service shortcomings by continuing to drive it today. It's still out front.

We had an '86 Thunderbird with +250K on the clock and we drove it onto the flatbed with another 50K trouble-free left when we gave it to the church. I don't hate Chevies either. We gave up an '86 Caprice to family five years ago with 1/4 million miles on it as third owner and they still have it running strong. Maybe they will give it back one day so it becomes a low-rider. I hope that's not soon, because I have too much on my plate. I miss my first 68 Firebird with a passion and regret ever parting with it. I had a 74 Duster 318/4 speed too and I liked it a lot while I had it. But I wouldn't look to buy one today. It's styling is kind of mundane. I think the Valient lines were more elegant. I should have bought the Barracuda I as shopping for at the time, but I couldn't see anything out the windows. That would have made it hard to drive though traffic.

I wouldn't put a Ford 9" in the Firebird either, though it's probably a good solid choice. I'll be putting a Chevy 12-bolt posi instead, just to stay with GM and to get a good posi. I guess we each solve our concerns differently. I'm sure I'll take flack for the 12-bolt at car shows. I won't be leaving the chrome cover in place, lol.

My pontiac didn't come from the factory with long headers, and 500+ hp.. -And not so much room for stock (if any room) starters.
-So the design to deal with too much heat for the solenoid, was -as fords- a remote starter.

-It came with cast iron exhaust manifolds (not very long compared to headers). -that's why the solenoid wasn't as exposed to heat.

-Fords had smaller engine bays, -not so much room for big starters.

-As Vikki said, heavy duty starters were available.

Not to mention (as we can see from Thomas' pictures) todays headers almost rely on 'mini' starters in order to fit.

I'm sure you don't hate Fords.. -why should anyone of us in here hate a company that introduced the 'ponycar' concept..

-Who knows.. -without the mustangs, -maybe no firebirds/camaros.

-But there is really no need to debate what design came originally, or first.

-Original designs were compromised in relations to what was easiest to fit and cheapest for any of the carmakers..

-Only if they had no other choice the design would be best quality available. (just like today).

I have 12 bolt posi, from moser, and recommend it.
-However the only reason why I didn't go with 9 inch, was heavier weight.
-Yeah I got rid of the chrome cover too (LOL), and put on an aluminium.(which I eventually painted black)