First Generation Firebird

Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible

Posted By: sscott

Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 08/22/17 02:40 AM

Folks, I am considering purchasing 67' 400 convertible /4 speed on West Coast. Car has just 60,000 original miles. Owned by current owner for last 29 years (stored in barn) where he has put est. 6,000 miles on car since he bought it.

The VIN confirms year, make, model and engine block - but engine code is YT indicating automatic trans pairing vs. 4 speed. I have yet to order PHS to resolve discrepancy between block and trans - but trans /shifter look period correct. Carb (rebuilt), manifold and heads are all original.

Car has likley been in minor accidents over the years (given identification of some bondo on rear right quarter panel), is generally rust free (expect for right read floor panel rusting out) and appears to be for the most part stock.

No material mechanical issues identified and car seems more or less solid foundation.

Any input on how to determine if #'s matching without ordering PHS and any suggestion on what to look for and relative market value on this car?

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Posted By: wovenweb

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 08/22/17 10:52 AM

Shouldn't trans case have last 6 of the VIN? Just curious why save $65 if it appears to be important to you that the car is numbers matching? No one can clarify the info you seek other than PHS. And even they may not be able to. It could be a misstamp, etc.
Posted By: Sleddog

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 08/22/17 03:25 PM

Get the PHS. Either you have a 4sp implant, or an auto designated block in a 4sp car with the cowl tag changed. You could check the hidden vins, but if you are serious on the car, get the PHS.
Posted By: wovenweb

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 08/22/17 03:33 PM

Whoops, I was thinking the TH400 was in the car. It would have had the VIN on it.
Posted By: sscott

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 08/22/17 08:01 PM

Thanks. I've ordered PHS - just a timing issue in that I need to make a decision on car before I'll likely get the PHS report back.

Assuming that car is numbers matching - as Pontiac was known in 1967 to use 67 and 68 blocks in late year 67s - what is your est. valuation range?

I've been looking at the 400 convertibles for the past few years and most solid but non restored cars have been in the $20K to $25K range (restored cars in the $30K range).

I'll probably just need to make a judgement call here and take some risk.

Sean
Posted By: Sleddog

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 08/23/17 05:38 PM

Sean,

I would try to stick in the 15k range buying if numbers match (block and body) In decent shape that is. If it truly is a numbers matych PHS verified car with motor and tranny matching, then yes it could be in the 20's.

There are a lot of unknowns in here, that can add up- so just a general statement. It appears to have some original hard to find parts, but is missing some as well.

Others like 68tpls400 might be a little more in tune with prices.
Posted By: sscott

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 08/25/17 12:46 AM

Thanks. Reached agreement with Seller on price. I have a new project to work on and less space in garage. May need advice on selling the car in the future :-). Any additional guidance on what to sort out once I take possession of the car will be appreciated.
Posted By: Sleddog

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 08/25/17 11:34 AM

Congrats on the purchase!!! keep us posted.
Posted By: dillin

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 10/14/17 06:15 AM

Vin should be on front of block and trans case. They should match vin on car. Then original block and trans. Still get on a soda to support other options and originality of csr.
Posted By: Sleddog

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 06/21/18 03:50 PM

What did the PHS say?
Posted By: salmon38

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 06/28/18 04:05 PM

I just now realized that the original post is a year old, but FYI from the photos posted here:

The car had the later blue/yellow 6 digit CA plates which means it was probably brought into CA from someplace else between 1969 and 1980. If it was originally registered in CA in '67, the plates would have been black/yellow (like mine). If you can provide me the 3 letter plate combo, I can narrow it's CA registration down to the year. Of course, the PHS docs will show which dealership originally sold the car.

However, it had the chrome top snorkel air cleaner which may have been correct for a 400 model made for CA in 1967 (instead of the 49 state chrome "pancake" air cleaner). I do not see the smog pump, but I do see what appears to be an unpainted section of the front of the passenger side cylinder head which would have been where the aluminum smog "plate" would have been attached. I do find it odd that IF this car had the original smog equipment that it would have been removed because the CA smog shops would have required it to be there and functioning in order for the car to meet CA 1967 requirements.

Another smog part that most likely was NOT changed out (i.e. would be there on the car) would be the unique aluminum attaching plate on the front of the driver's side cylinder head to mount the PS pump. It would have channels on the backside and a large round port on the top for the smog lines to connect to. The regular PS pump bracket does not have that.

If it was a made for CA 400, you are talking about 1500 such models including both coupes and verts. If so and the air cleaner and carb are original - you are looking at some rare parts.

ALSO: There would be NO VIN on the engine block for 1967. There would be and Engine Unit Number (EUN) instead which would match that on your PHS docs.
Posted By: sscott

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 09/13/18 03:34 AM

I missed your last response as I have not been on firstgen website in several months. You've provided me with some intriguing info. Can we connect via email this week and I can give you a call when convenient to discuss? If so you can reach me at seanscott55@hotmail.com. I continue to be perplexed by my 67' but have figured a few things out. I can share the PHS and codes with you and you may be able to help me solve the mystery!
Posted By: salmon38

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 09/13/18 03:56 PM

I sent you a PM
Posted By: Bartbird

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 09/26/18 07:07 PM

If you posted all the info like body tag and vin, block numbers, it would be easier, I can tell you it's been altered because I have one, the wood grain covers on the dash are 68 and it looks like the console is after market but correct style for 67, in 67 all interior was black, the woodgrain wasn't available until 68, your vin should read
223677( a letter for factory location) then 6 numbers for the production number, if it starts with a 1 the car was a V8 if it starts with a 6 the car was a 6cyl


see: http://www.tpocr.com/pontiacvin5.html
Posted By: salmon38

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 09/26/18 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Bartbird
... the wood grain covers on the dash are 68 and it looks like the console is after market but correct style for 67, in 67 all interior was black, the woodgrain wasn't available until 68, ...
see: http://www.tpocr.com/pontiacvin5.html


Sorry, incorrect. All FGF's received a wood grain center dash panel from the factory, It was Pontiac's attempt to market the Firebird as an "upscale" choice to the Camaro. The woodgrain was in a horizontal "walnut" pattern for 1967 and a different "burlwood" pattern for 1968. I believe '69 was also burlwood, but my knowledge of the '69's is pretty limited. Only the Camaro had the black "pebble grain" or "camera case" center dash face on lower trim models and unfortunately, aftermarket parts companies like to tell you that non-woodgrain center panel is correct for Firebirds.

sscott and I have had several emails after I looked at his PHS info. His car came from the factory and was delivered to California as a 326 2-bbl. Somewhere along the way it had the 400 drivetrain swapped in along with several 400 styling ques like the hood. The original factory center console (along with a Sport wheel) was a factory option but his has had aftermarket gauges installed at the front.

There are some oddball options on his PHS like shoulder seat bets on a convertible and it has on it a CA plate that was issued in 1979.
Posted By: wovenweb

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 09/27/18 02:06 AM

My '68 convertible was optioned with shoulder belts, but they were missing when I purchased the vehicle.
Posted By: salmon38

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 09/27/18 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by wovenweb
My '68 convertible was optioned with shoulder belts, but they were missing when I purchased the vehicle.


So they would have been bolted to the convertible top frame?
Posted By: 68tpls400

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 09/27/18 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by salmon38


So they would have been bolted to the convertible top frame?


Now that would be an interesting way to do it. (hangman comes to mind)

Shoulder belts in 'verts mount to the rear side panel framing, and look very odd. Plus there are no 'relief' springs, so when you strap yourself across the shoulders, you cannot lean forward.

The belts also look very odd when not in use as they just kind of dangle down the side panels, across the seats, and onto the floor.

I can see why people removed them first chance they could.

Vikki did a bunch of research back in her day, and posted a lot of pictures. I do know that they are EXTREMELY rare in '67-8 'verts, and slightly more common in '69.
Posted By: salmon38

Re: Seeking advice on 67' 400 /4 speed convertible - 09/27/18 11:10 PM

Thanks. I had trouble visioning the installation (retired engineer here) and figured any extra force on the convertible top frame in the event of an accident would be bad news.

Anyway, the OP told me his shoulder belts were long gone before he got the car.

I did tell him that if his car still had the numbers matching original drivetrain, it would have been pretty rare (326, 4 speed, 'vert built for CA) and the shoulder belts would have only added to that.
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