First Generation Firebird
Posted By: KevinK 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/26/13 06:45 AM
Hey guys,
Hoping for some good input. I recently sold my 1968 400HO and was chatting with a guy in Texas who was interested in buying my car. He said he had a line on another car near him and was told it was a '68 with a factory installed 428 and had a build sheet to go with it. I've never heard of such a thing......any thoughts...comments?
Posted By: wovenweb Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/26/13 06:50 AM
The 428 was not a factory available option for a Firebird. Perhaps there is some crazy story involved with it but for the most part those have been debunked.
Posted By: KevinK Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/26/13 06:58 AM
Agreed. He advised it is still owned by the original owner, who is an airline pilot an seems credible but somthing must be missing from the story. Did COPO ever do pontiacs?
Posted By: crazecars Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/26/13 03:13 PM
Sounds like you're not an interested buyer...but if anyone is, it would be pretty easy and smart to ask for a copy of that build sheet, and then run a PHS on it, and see what it says...
Posted By: Bjorn Sefeldt Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/26/13 04:36 PM
Theres a guy in Houston claiming to own one of the few 428 Firebird originals, claims it was on display by the fatcory in Vegas in 67...before the Firebirds went on sale...also claims having papers...
I saw the car a few years ago, but he has since put it in storage...
Posted By: Bluebird428 Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/26/13 05:02 PM
Maybe try to get the fellow in Texas to get a copy of the build sheet and send it to you. Then you could post it here, I'd sure like to see it.
Posted By: salmon38 Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/26/13 06:51 PM
Originally Posted By KevinK
Agreed. He advised it is still owned by the original owner, who is an airline pilot an seems credible but somthing must be missing from the story. Did COPO ever do pontiacs?


Short answer - No. The hot rumor is that Royal Pontiac and maybe a couple of other dealerships did "Bobcat" like packages for Firebirds by yanking out the original engine at the dealership and installing 428's. I do not recall if any real evidence was every located.

It's the "Bigfoot" of the FGF world.
I have an magazine article documenting Royal Pontiac doing just that.
Posted By: OHCMarc Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/26/13 09:38 PM
Originally Posted By Michigan Larry
I have an magazine article documenting Royal Pontiac doing just that.


Copy and post it so we can read it.
Posted By: bigchief Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 06:35 AM
Myrtle motors in NY did conversions with 428's
Posted By: wovenweb Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 06:40 AM
Originally Posted By Michigan Larry
I have an magazine article documenting Royal Pontiac doing just that.


Originally Posted By bigchief
Myrtle motors in NY did conversions with 428's


No arguments on either point here as I have heard similar stories, but as was noted in the original post about a factory installed 428, neither of these two situations meets that criteria.
Posted By: StealthBird Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 06:58 AM
They didn't produce any factory 428 Firebirds or GTO's, but yes, some dealers did swaps.

Motor Trend did a feature article on a 1968 Royal Bobcat 428 GTO, and I believe the cost was around $600 for the swap, plus of course they would get your original 400. Not a bad deal really. I'd imagine if Pontiac offered a 428 as an factory option, it would have been around $150-$250.

There was a 67 or 68 Firebird in a Pontiac Enthusiast or High Perf Pontiac magazine a LONG time that was supposedly a Royal Bobcat 428 Firebird, with dual quads.

Myrtle Motors also did a conversion, and tried to get in on the Royal Pontiac publicity wagon by having one of their 428 Firebirds featured in the Sept 68 issue of Popular Hot Rodding Magazine (attachments below).

Either way, there weren't any factory 67-69 428 Firebirds or GTO's, and there won't be any PHS invoices or builds sheets showing a 428. If this gentleman has one of the dealer conversion cars, it would be worth a lot of money restored today, as long as he has a rock solid paper trail to prove its heritage.

Here's a rough scan of the 1968 Myrtle Motors Firebird 428 test. This baby flew. smile

Attached picture 137709-test1-1.jpg
Attached picture 137710-test2.jpg
Attached picture 137711-test3.jpg
Attached picture 137712-test4.jpg
Posted By: KevinK Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 08:01 AM
I just spoke to the gentleman in Texas(via email) about this car and he advised that the owner does claim it was from royal pontiac and he says he has the original sales contract listing the modifications. He sent me a picture of the car. It's a charcoal gray color with a fin on the back. Sound like the same car you saw in Texas?
Posted By: salmon38 Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 08:37 AM
Outstanding! We have found Bigfoot. I have always wanted to see this issue laid to rest.
Posted By: StealthBird Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 09:04 AM
The one that was featured years ago in a magazine was also charcoal gray, so I imagine it's the same car.
Posted By: wovenweb Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 01:36 PM
It's been said fifteen times and I'll repeat it again for emphasis for some reason, that 428 was not factory installed. A dealer-installed option does not necessarily have the corporate imprimatur, some will and others won't. We do know in this case that these 428s did not. So while we know that there were Firebirds with 428s installed we continue to lack evidence of a "stock" 428.

What would be interesting to know is what engine those cars came with originally, it seems to indicate a regular 400 in the article, but could it have also been a Ram Air version?
Posted By: KevinK Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 06:31 PM
He advised that this car, according to PHS did come originally with a 400. In addition to the 428 it was also fitted with Ram Air heads, cam and ducting with functional heads.
Posted By: KevinK Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 06:32 PM
excuse me, functional ram air hood, not head.
Posted By: crazecars Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 07:04 PM
You know what I love about this more than anything? It proves that Camaro spoilers were installed on some brand new Firebirds in 1968, and driven off the dealer floor perched on brand new FGFs, simply because they were extremely cool looking.

As they still are today.

So articles like the one above prove, beyond any question, that Camaro spoilers absolutely MUST be installed on FGF's if you want it to look as awesome and mean and as period-correct-modified as humanly possible...

LOL. I'm just messin...and acknowledge that beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and of course only my eye is correct.)

But I just had to throw that tidbit out there for all the spoiler haters on this site...

Cool article all around. It's fun to read those old mag stories. Thanks for posting it up.
Posted By: 68tpls400 Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By crazecars
LOL. I'm just messin...and acknowledge that beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and of course only my eye is correct.)

But I just had to throw that tidbit out there for all the spoiler haters on this site...


OK, you are excused! grin

But if you are going to paint on 'Maro stripes and add 'Maro spoilers, why the h$ll not just buy a 'Maro??

Next subject?
Posted By: crazecars Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 08:05 PM
Originally Posted By 68tpls400
why the h$ll not just buy a 'Maro??



Everyone knows the answer to that...

Cuz Camaros are too expensive! shocked

Don't lynch me, but I have to admit I was actually looking for a 69 Camaro when I stumbled across my Firebird. It was cheap, so I settled.

Of course now that I own it, if I ever choose to sell it, I'll have to settle for less $$ and a harder sell than if it were a Camaro. Such is the price you pay for the up-front savings...

Truth be told, I prefer the looks of the Firebird over Camaro anyway. Particularly the front end. And I admit it's nice pulling into a car show and being one of one, or one of very few, rather than one of FIFTEEN Camaros. (Although the IRONY of the fact that my next door neighbor happens to own a 68 Firebird Vert also just KILLS me).

I'm less enamored with how these Pontiac motors seem to be a more specialized thing and are more expensive to rebuild/replace/modify compared to the dime-a-dozen Chebby motors.

Nothing anyone here hasn't heard 500 times before...
Posted By: Bjorn Sefeldt Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 09:52 PM
these are still not "factory"...Bobcats or the others...the guy I am talking about claims his came 428 from the factory....
again:"claims"....
Posted By: KevinK Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 11:02 PM
This gentleman is not claiming it's factory. It was a question posed to the forum and answered. Paperwork shows dealership made the changes/modifications. I just asked the question.
Posted By: Gus68 Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/27/13 11:07 PM
My buddy had a 428 /w 4.11's. Brutally fast!
Posted By: StealthBird Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 12:55 AM
Originally Posted By StealthBird
They didn't produce any factory 428 Firebirds or GTO's, but yes, some dealers did swaps.


Yes, that's what I said earlier in this thread, if I may be so bold as to quote myself. smile

There are always myths and tall tales of factory 428's in Birds and Goats, or 421's in 64-66 GTO's, but Pontiac never built one.

Transplanted? Yes.
Engineering car? Yes.
Test car? Yes.

But not built from the factory.
Posted By: salmon38 Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 01:28 AM
Originally Posted By KevinK
Hey guys,
Hoping for some good input. I recently sold my 1968 400HO and was chatting with a guy in Texas who was interested in buying my car. He said he had a line on another car near him and was told it was a '68 with a factory installed 428 and had a build sheet to go with it. I've never heard of such a thing......any thoughts...comments?


Er...The original post did say "factory installed" and implied documented by the build sheet.

Thus the reason why many posters may have come across as a bit miffed. The gauntlet had been thrown!
Posted By: StealthBird Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 01:51 AM
As a side note, this 67 Bird was at the MCACN show here in Chicago last weekend. I believe this was Tyrol Blue. What a great looking car! It had aftermarket 428 emblems on the hood and trunk, and blacked out scoops. I thought those were nice touches (I did the same to my car several years ago, but since changed back).

Attached picture IMG_1472.JPG
Attached picture IMG_1473.JPG
Posted By: bigchief Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 02:49 AM
That is a really nice bird. Any more pictures?
Posted By: StealthBird Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 03:56 AM
I wish I had more, but that's all I took of this one. I took over 350 pics, just too many cars to photograph!

This one had a mix of various mods, from the 428 under the hood to the black hood scoops, later era white letter tires, etc. Obviously not a 400 car originally (unless someone restored and didn't replace the Firebird 400 specifics, which is ok too!). Note the Royal Bobcat emblem on the front fender behind the wheelwell. Nicely done!
Posted By: Gus68 Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 04:10 AM
Yes, that's an awesome bird. Really like the Tyrel blue. Hope to see it for myself someday.
I am very limited in my knowledge about FGF's but out of curiosity. If these cars were originally 400 cars why is there no Arrowhead in the bumper? (MotorTrend ad on page 2)? Thought all 68' 400 models had them?? Sorry if its a stupid question, just thought it wouldnt make sense, that they would change a bumper for no reason.
Posted By: Gordy Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 08:30 PM
I was wondering the same thing.
Posted By: wovenweb Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 08:37 PM
It does appear to have one on the very top of the first page of the article. I can't tell in the second picture where the two cars are side by side.
Posted By: Gasgacinch Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/28/13 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By StealthBird
As a side note, this 67 Bird was at the MCACN show here in Chicago last weekend. I believe this was Tyrol Blue. What a great looking car! It had aftermarket 428 emblems on the hood and trunk, and blacked out scoops. I thought those were nice touches (I did the same to my car several years ago, but since changed back).


Would love to have more pics of that car. Hope I can get mine that clean someday.
Not to mention the car is missing front wrap around marker lamps, making it a 67??
Posted By: Bjorn Sefeldt Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/29/13 12:36 AM
Originally Posted By Fred Ashmore Jr
I am very limited in my knowledge about FGF's but out of curiosity. If these cars were originally 400 cars why is there no Arrowhead in the bumper? (MotorTrend ad on page 2)? Thought all 68' 400 models had them?? Sorry if its a stupid question, just thought it wouldnt make sense, that they would change a bumper for no reason.

could be several reasons. among others, replaced front bumper been damaged, rusty, wrecked?, or its not a true orig 400...
The cars we are talking about are dealership swaps of the 428's when they were new, that were supposedly done to new factory 400's, not restorations or rehabs of old cars.
Posted By: crazecars Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/29/13 05:36 AM
I do see 400 hockey sticks on every grille...

I'm thinking the arrowheads are there, simply washed out in the pics by poor photo copy. Hard to tell though.

Agree one front end of the 3 shown in the article (the "race car" with the tow bar installed) appears to be a 1967 with no park lights.
Posted By: TNTtransam Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/29/13 06:10 AM
The real question here is, did you buy the car!?
Posted By: StealthBird Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 11/29/13 06:44 AM
Originally Posted By Fred Ashmore Jr
I am very limited in my knowledge about FGF's but out of curiosity. If these cars were originally 400 cars why is there no Arrowhead in the bumper? (MotorTrend ad on page 2)? Thought all 68' 400 models had them?? Sorry if its a stupid question, just thought it wouldnt make sense, that they would change a bumper for no reason.


Definitely NOT a silly question!

The 1968 GTO Royal Bobcat 428 I mentioned above was an example where Royal Pontiac transplanted in a 428 engine, pulling out the original 400.

With the Myrtle Motors Firebird, they most likely started with a 350 car and performed the 428 swap. In the process they added the hood, stripes, rear spoiler, and emblems.

The photo of the two Birds side-by-side shows the 1967 Myrtle Motors drag car, with the nose up attitude. Also notice that the drag car has scoops in front of the rear wheelwells.

Not all the transplant cars had to start out as Firebird 400's.

Royal Pontiac had a 1969 Firebird 350HO, red with a white tail panel and stripes, and lettered up for Royal Pontiac (and later, Leader Engineering). Royal modified this car for class racing, and it became the quickest 350 in the country. It was also featured in magazines articles, like the cover of PHR. It had a flat hood with dual hood tach nacelles (this was how the Firebird 350 HO was supposed to be built, but they nixed the double tach nacelles at the last minute).

After they were done running the 350HO, they transplanted in a Ram Air V, and did another test for a magazine. It now had the 400 hood, but none of the usual Firebird 400 trim.
I have the paperwork from royal motors on my 68 , was a 400 car. 428 was not a factory option ever
Posted By: uconn86hgiv Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 10/01/18 06:56 PM
That doesn't mean it wasn't a dealer installed "dealer option" new with the car in 68? That did happen although usually at a customer request and not just to sell a car. If you have the original sales slip it might show that. My car has a trim piece down the side called "dealer installed deluxe trim". No a factory option but there it is.
"no arrow head emblem"
Also wrong color grills w/o center hockey sticks...
Posted By: olin9 Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 01/04/22 02:05 AM
My dad had a used car lot from 1965-2002 and by the time I was 15 i had 15 different cars. And I loved hot rods. at 17 in 1980 I had a 1968 Firebird 428 4 B carb auto. It had a chrome breather top and valve covers AM/FM AC, power windows, air shocks, back seat would fold down for extra space, disc brakes. The rear end gear was real high it would would shift in to drive at 118 MPH when gas to the bottom. I totaled it when a old man in a galaxy 500 ran a stop sign. I was doing 75 MPH.

The car looked factory I just did not know how rare it was. My dad sold it as junk for $150.

Some of the cars I had. Not listing the normal every day drivers. And in no order.

68 ss Chevelle. 327 primer, black inter
69 Chevelle Red, 327 or 350 not sure Black inter
72 Chevelle 350 blue, black inter
68 firebird convertible 400 4 speed (fast) 72,000 miles. beige, black inter.
68 Firebird 428 Dark Green, Black Inter
70 Nova 307 beige Black inter
68 camaro 327 Black on Black
68 SS Camaro 327 burg with black strips, black inter
72 cutlass 350 rocket (fast) gold, white inter
67 mustang 289 baby blue, Black inter
69 mach1 fast back 351 Auto, White with red strips, black inter (fast). Did not have drive license yet.
70 grande mustang 302
70 camaro straight 6 blue
72 camaro 350 gold.
66 Chevelle white convertible. I still have a extra trunk lid for it. From 1984
57 2 door belair Black with a V8 dont recall the size but it was stock.
55 chevy truck short stepside Gold. 350, 350 turbo. I still have the all copper stock radiator.
82 firebird T tops gold, black inter. v6. Put in a 305 HO and trans, computer from a 86 IROC Z.
71 Z28 camaro, 350 LS1 Blue, black inter, custom paint uni-peg and moons with "Born To Run" on the side with side pipes chrome wire wheels. The fastest of all the cars.
79 Z28 I still have it with the motor from the 71 above in it. Brown with brown inter.
72 cutlass S 350 rocket 350 turbo blue with a white top, white inter. 8 track tape made in dash. 92,000 miles factory paper work Still have, last car I ever bought from my dad.
85 chevy S10, 350 double rolling chain, 490 lift with AC

I am sure I missed something. I have seen a lot of odd cars.
what about a chevy van with a 4 speed on the column?
A 68 camaro with a bench seat?
Posted By: Bob S. Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 01/04/22 11:32 AM
No Firebirds came from the factory with a 428
Posted By: barnbird Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 01/04/22 04:06 PM
Welcome Olin. Wow you have a good memory and what a great list of cars. With a 428, a/c, power windows and fold down seat it sounds like that Bird flew in style!
Posted By: Bartbird Re: 1968 firebird with stock 428?????? - 01/08/22 03:42 PM
If he has a paper trail it is possible, here's why and only why.

First off NO Firebirds came from the factory with 428's PERIOD.

Second - a very few select dealers would put one in for you, one I know for sure did this was Myrtle Motors in New York. I believe Royal did too.

They would have the original paperwork from the dealer and the paperwork better look real old, no copies, it's the only way to prove it. PHS will have no history of this being done but if the papers exist it would be a rare and valuable bird.

A lot of people did this at home too, the 428 is a plug in.
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