First Generation Firebird
Posted By: Firebob EFI install - 11/19/17 12:26 AM
A bit late to start this thread but what the hell.
So I bought the Holley Sniper back in August but decided I'd make it a winter project so I'm just getting around to starting the install.
The thing cost about $1200. But of course, as with everything else, that is only the starting point. So in talking with some other guys on EFI forums I was told I would need to update my charging system from the old 37amp alternator and remote voltage regulator. If you've read my other post, you know that I've now installed a 94 amp unit with internal regulator and upgraded my wiring a bit. Yesterday I got under and pulled my old Holley elect fuel pump and the system I had installed awhile back to counteract the fuel starvation issues I've had at the racetrack. Dropped the gas tank and swapped the sending unit with the one I modified to connect to the new external fuel pump. Fabbed the mount for the pump. Now I'm ready to stuff it back up in the car. Maybe I'll get it back in tomorrow and get the hoses put on. Once I get it back in I'll wire it up to a relay as well. I'll update this as I go along.

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Posted By: Bob S. Re: EFI install - 11/19/17 12:54 PM
I’m sure you’ve seen the EFI gas tanks they sell now with internal fuel pumps. That looks like the way to go as long as you’re shelling out the bucks
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 11/19/17 05:05 PM
I wanted to buy a complete kit so I went with the external pump. Everybody says the Tanks with the Walbro pump installed is the way to go but it meant ordering that separately and more expense so this the way I went and now I'm stuck with it( at least until the pump gives up). Should be fine. I've heard from guys that have been running this way for years without issue.

More of a concern for me is if the system will be able to adjust to my driving conditions. Different parameters can be tuned in but with the cheaper systems there is only so much that can be done.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 11/20/17 11:11 PM
I'm doing an efi swap too.. watching this thread like a hawk.. lol
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 11/28/17 06:07 PM
Ok, had a fairly frustrating day in the garage yesterday. I put the gas tank back in the car with the sending unit that I modified for the new pump setup. The EFI is setup to use 3/8" lines for the feed and the return lines. I had just installed a stock 5/16" return line with the last motor install so I figured that should be adequate. The return only carries 3psi, not sure what kind of volume, but it's free flowing so I'm hoping it doesn't cause a restriction. Just have to adapt the 3/8" hose to 5/16" hard line. So you try to explain to the girl at twilight zone that you need fuel injection hose, not just regular old fuel hose ( what kind of car is it for? Is it a 2 or 4 door?...UGH!). Anyways get the tank in and start to hook up the hoses and that's when I realize the replacement sending unit I used has a 1/4" return line installed on it. WTF?? Tank comes back out. Now I have to modify my original sending unit that I added the 5/16 hard line into. Of course it's all stainless so I can't get solder to stick. Meanwhile some other [censored] gets broke while I'm dicking around with it. CRAP! Two trips to the hardware store. I finally get it back together install it in the tank, back in the car. Get my hose run and everything clamped. Whew! Onward ho. Next up, pull the intake to notch the divider and reinstall. Then I think it will be time to drop the throttle body on and run the fuel lines to it. Stay tuned. (Pic is the 5/16 to 3/8 barbed hose adapter)

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Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 11/28/17 07:02 PM
my efi went pretty smooth.. I'm waiting on some hall effect tach chip.. they say the tach signal is unreliable from the HEI... I also went with a edebrock sump kit.. be interesting to see how that works...
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 12/18/17 06:26 AM
So got my fuel pump reinstalled after the day of carnage. Decided to install a relay to run it off because the same power feed covers all the injectors on the same circuit and I didn't want to overtax it.
Pulled the RPM intake today to notch the divider. Was way easier than port matching a whole new single plane. Got the EFI mounted. Have to fab an extension for the throttle linkage so I can use my original cable.
Next up wiring and plumbing...

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Posted By: Bluebird428 Re: EFI install - 12/18/17 12:53 PM
Looks like you're getting things done despite the snags. What was the idea behind notching the intake divider? Something specific to the EFI or same reason as cutting it for carb use? Man that RPM sure looks tall when you look at it upside down.
Just be thankful you didn't have to catch a ferry boat at 7:30, go see the girl in the twilight zone, try to explain to her what you want is not manufacturer, model, or year specific, get home at 4pm just to find what's in the box is not what's written on the outside of the box. Used to be parts guys where car guys. Can't find a gear head behind the counter at most stores now.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 12/18/17 02:15 PM
Holley, in their infinite wisdom, says a single plane works best with the EFI. Some say a dual plane works fine. Apparently there is a sensor that reads pressure inside the plenum. With the divider in the dual plane you're only reading pressure on one side so if you open a window in between it allows the pressure to be read on both sides( so goes the theory). Makes sense I guess. This was much easier than going to all the trouble of getting a new intake and doing all the port matching again. Besides I like the hp/rpm range it has with this intake. A single plane would probably change that.

I feel for you Al. It's bad enough when it happens to me and it only takes me a few minutes to go get something. Sometimes I just buy two of whatever because I figure one is probably broken( or going to break)/bad/wrong. At least then you have a 50/50 shot. You can always return it next time.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 01/01/18 06:37 PM
Ok, so I've spent the last couple of days running wires and soldering connections( I'm really slow). Think I've got just about everything hooked up how it's supposed to be. You know those YouTube videos that say, "oh it only take a day to install one of these", yeah, I'd like to see that. Maybe if you had a full electrical supply store on one side and an auto parts store on the other...still. Anyway still have to drill one hole and grommet to run the main power from the battery. Then I have to make sure the cable for the 02 sensor is long enough to reach( iffy ). I may have to buy an extension cable if it doesn't. Once that's done the elect portion of the install will be done. Then I still have to replace the rubber connector hoses between the hard lines at the cross member under the motor, then from the fuel stock fuel pump location up to the unit. Getting there. This would be so much easier with a lift!

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Posted By: Bluebird428 Re: EFI install - 01/01/18 07:33 PM
Wouldn't a lift be great? Every time I go to Princess Auto and pass by one my credit card starts to vibrate. My garage ceiling is not high enough, thank God, the credit card would somehow win and I'd buy a lift I can't afford.

When you put the SI alternator in, did you have to put a diode in the alternator power on wire circuit? I seem to remember reading one would be needed with an MSD ignition box to prevent run-on. I put one in mine as the worn out old ignition switch bled voltage out the ignition wire even when in the off position. Not enough to keep the ignition on before I installed the relays but enough to hold the relay on and of course that supplied enough to cause the run on. I don't have an ignition box.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 01/01/18 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Bluebird428
Wouldn't a lift be great? Every time I go to Princess Auto and pass by one my credit card starts to vibrate. My garage ceiling is not high enough, thank God, the credit card would somehow win and I'd buy a lift I can't afford.

When you put the SI alternator in, did you have to put a diode in the alternator power on wire circuit? I seem to remember reading one would be needed with an MSD ignition box to prevent run-on. I put one in mine as the worn out old ignition switch bled voltage out the ignition wire even when in the off position. Not enough to keep the ignition on before I installed the relays but enough to hold the relay on and of course that supplied enough to cause the run on. I don't have an ignition box.


I have a 4 post lift.. my walls are only 8 foot.. I made that section of the garage cathedral and I can walk under without ducking!!!
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 01/01/18 10:28 PM
I agree about the 1 day install... I ran into other issues too and ended up replacing the heater box and dash speaker. Did u have to replace the chip in the distributor for the tach signal??

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Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 01/02/18 02:36 PM
Al, I didn't install a diode. After the upgrade of the alt I fired the car up to make sure i didn't screw anything up and all seemed to be good. No alt light on in the dash and it shut off like normal. There's already some sort of diode or some little doohickey in one of the wires leading to the old voltage reg. Maybe the instructions say you need one if ones not already there.

Jman, I always used the signal for my tach from that one plug on the end of the MSD box run straight to the tach. With the Holley wiring they utilize that connection for a signal to the ECU and a dark brown wire from the ECU to signal the tach( supposed to be a square wave signal). I'm hoping it works like it used to. I'm still running my HEI with no timing control till I get this thing up and running. Once I get everything sorted out I'll attempt to switch over to the other Dist.
Posted By: Bluebird428 Re: EFI install - 01/03/18 03:43 PM
That's a good idea, removing the flat ceiling and making parallel cord trusses for more height and still have two feet of insulation. Alas, my garage is low slope and the wall dividing it and the back room is non-load bearing.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 01/05/18 09:39 PM
Uh oh! We got trouble. I knew this thing wouldn't go smoothly. Got everything buttoned up last night and ran through all the setup BS. Everything looked good till I tried to fire it up. No spark. Fuel system is working the way it should but I'm not getting any spark. The MSD controls the spark so something is not connected right but for the life of me I can't see it. RRRRRRR! I hate electronic things.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 01/06/18 12:35 PM
I'm not looking forward to the programming part.. just incase anyone finds this post .. the edelbrock universal sump kit for use with EFI DOES require a vent to the tank no matter what it says in the description.... lol,,, I wish I knew that up front.. I would have just replaced the tank.
Posted By: Bluebird428 Re: EFI install - 01/06/18 01:48 PM
Hey Robert, is there a light on the box to tell you if it's getting power? You most likely have it wired to a + and - for overall power and the wire from the ignition switch to turn it off and on. Did you end up putting a relay in to switch the box off and on? If so is that wired so it's actually giving you 12 volts switched? Seems you had this box before the efi install so the coil trigger and tach connections would all be the same? Too bad your 1300 miles away, sometimes a second set of eyes help.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 01/07/18 01:53 AM
I think I need a couple other sets of eyes. I'm beginning to think the coil went bad or the box or the Dist quit on me. Doesn't seem likely but I'm about to start swapping out parts till something works. It may be as simple as the EFI being configured for timing control but I don't know how to get in there and check. Very frustrating.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 01/07/18 01:21 PM
The tach signal was the most confusing on my set up. I had a modern dizzy and still had to replace the chip inside.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 01/17/18 02:49 PM
I didn't realize that I hadn't updated this thread.
So I stared at that wiring for 2days and waited for something to jump out at me and say here I am. No such luck so on the third day I decided I'm just going to start swapping things out until something good happens. I started with a spare MSD box I had on the shelf...nothing. Then I pulled an old crusty coil out of my swap meet box. I couldn't for the life of me find a coil wire so I pulled the end off an old plug wire and stuffed it in the top of the coil. Jumped in and turned the key. VIOLA!!! We got fire. I just don't understand how a coil could go bad just sitting there. Friggin weird. Ordered a new one from Summit and it seems to be all good. Still haven't had a chance to get it out of the garage yet but it seems to run good. We shall see.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 01/21/18 05:46 AM
Got a clear day today with not much planned so I was able to get the car out for awhile. Started it and let it idle in the garage for half an hour or so till it finally got to 160 degrees and the ECU started its " learn" mode. Went down and got some gas and drove around for about another half hour or so. Did some neighborhood driving mostly under 30mph. Then pulled a few hills and pushed it a bit. Then made a couple hard first and second gear pulls. I've heard it takes a few trips for the EFI to get adjusted but I'm very happy with the way it's running. No cold start issues, which nice. It seems to have a bit more juice than it had with my quadrajet too so that is unexpected. Hard to imagine what it would be like if it ever did hook up. Friggin crazy! I'll give it some time to settle in before I swap distributors out and wire it up for timing control. So far I'm happy.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 02/01/18 02:07 PM
No real new news to report about the system. Just wanted to keep this thread current. I did get the car out last weekend for some running errands. Still seems to be running good. It has a slight hiccup I find when I first let out the clutch. If I'm not real careful there seems to be a slight flat spot. There are some fuel enrichment adjustments that can be made in different areas of the fuel curve. I may try to tune that out. I also need to dial in a lower idle setting. I think I had entered 850rpm originally. They say when the learn mode slows down its near the end of its self adjusting and to go into the ECU and manually reduce the " learn" percentage so it will stop adjusting the fuel. At that point I can install my new distributor and set up timing control but first I have to get the lead for the handheld display run through the firewall and hooked back up so I can see what it's doing on the fly. It's got a big plug on the end of the cable so I may have to make a new hole to do that. I'm not thrilled about that. More coming...
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 03/02/18 04:05 AM
Bought another intake to replace the RPM I've been running. The throttle body of the Sniper is a bit taller than my jet and I was at the very limit on height before. Swapped out the old RPM for a Hurricane today. Now I have tons of clearance. I may go to a base without as much drop. I have about an inch and a half to play with now. It raining like hell here so I'm not sure when I'll get it out for a spin. It'll be interesting to see what kind of difference there is going from a dual plane to a single.

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Posted By: Bluebird428 Re: EFI install - 03/07/18 01:09 PM
Do you have an inline filter between the tank and pump? How about between the pump and the EFI? Any pics of where you installed it/them?
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 03/07/18 07:31 PM
I put mine on top of the water pump.

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Posted By: Hammered Re: EFI install - 03/08/18 02:23 AM
Great to see some EFI installs here. I did mine a little over 10 years ago and haven't had an issue.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 03/09/18 02:50 PM
I have one pre-filter installed between the sending unit and the fuel pump. The second is inline right after the stock hard line ends near the original mechanical fuel pump location. Can't really see it because it's in between the motor and crossmember.
Posted By: Bluebird428 Re: EFI install - 03/10/18 02:05 AM
Do you have the Pump some where around the tank?
I've changed my sender/pick up to a 1/2", and am running 1/2" AN-8 line up to the engine bay. I have a pre filter but can't really see a good place to mount it.
Was thinking of mounting it on the inner fender but that would put a lot of heat into the fuel.
Posted By: Hammered Re: EFI install - 03/12/18 12:43 AM
At the bottom of this page: http://1967firebird.atwebpages.com/efi1.php you can see that I mounted mine where the mechanical fuel pump was located.
Posted By: Bluebird428 Re: EFI install - 03/13/18 01:57 PM
I should have started a new thread for this but it is somewhat related.
When installing an EFI system it is common practice to install a 100 or 40 Micron filter between the tank and the electric fuel pump, depending on style of pump, and a 10 micron filter between the pump and the injectors. Don't know what type of filter they use on in-tank pumps.
I still use an engine driven pump. I have a large 100 micron filter to go between the tank and fuel pump and I use a 40 micron filter between the pump and the carburetor.
Already have the pre carb filter placed but am looking for a spot to mount the tank to pump filter. After I get the thing all back together I will crawl around under there and see where a good spot would be. Just thought if one of you guys has already done that while installing the EFI, it would save me some crawling.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 03/14/18 04:57 PM
When I mounted the pump I dropped the tank and removed the sending unit. I cut and bubble flared the line right at the rear edge of the top of the tank and then ran rubber FI line to the pre-filter and the another short piece of rubber into the pump. I have the pump mounted to the pass side tank strap. It was tight but it was the only way without running a bunch of rubber.

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Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 03/18/18 05:10 PM
So now that the unit is up and running fairly well and the self-tune aspect has done its thing its time for the next step...timing control. I bought an HEI distributor for an 81 ( the only year that they installed FI on a true Pont motor) Pontiac FI application. It comes with no mechanical adv and no vac adv. it's a big g body HEI so I can't buy the MSD adjustable rotor for phasing so I will have to dick with things a bit to get it set up correctly. The first issue I came across last night is the magnetic trigger plug that plugs into the 5 pin module is different than the earlier years module. I didn't really want to make wire splices inside the dist but it might be the easiest way to go.

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Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 03/27/18 01:00 PM
The latest...
So it seems like I've been going back and forth and watching countless hours of YouTube for months now but I guess it's only been a couple weeks. I ended up filing down the spade connectors on the wire ends to slip them into the plug on the new dist. After all is said and done I would've been better off sticking with my original dist, locking out the mech adv and buying an adjustable piece for the vac adv. I had a few issues with the instructions because my configuration didn't exactly match what everyone else had so I had to kind of guess on some of it as I went along. Sometimes wrong and I had to back up and start again. Finally got everything installed locked down and wired up right and the Sniper is now controlling my timing. I still have to download the software to my computer so I can make some fine tuning adjustments to the timing curve and the fuel delivery but it seems to be running well( in the garage anyway). I'll get her out this weekend and run around the neighborhood for awhile and let things settle in again and we'll see if it's a happy thing or not.

I did spend quite a few hours trying to use this big body HEI mostly because they said it couldn't be done and partially because I didn't want to spend the $400-$500 on the easy setup. Depending on how much you value your time at would depend on which way to go if you were to do this same sort of thing.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 03/29/18 10:49 AM
hows the car running??? I finally had a chance to take mine out.. there is a slight dead spot if I hit the gas hard.. if I go slow its ok... other than that seems to be running good... it did stall out a few time when I stopped on my first trip down the road.. I only went about a 1/4 mile and came back.... did yours have any issues like that that needed to be worked out?
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 03/29/18 12:23 PM
not to hijack but just in case anyones reading this for additional info about efi installs... .. I installed the edelbrock e street 2... so far it did NOT solve the cold start issue.. its about 25 deg. this morning.. the car did not want to start without helping with the gas petal... first time turning it over it cranked several times before it even tried to fire.. I'm hoping that goes away after some driving and adjusting... the install went pretty smooth.. other than having to swap the module in the dizzy.. and I wish I had bought a new tank with efi pump and not gone with the universal sump....
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 03/29/18 01:13 PM
Car seems to be running fine but I haven't been out of the garage since the changeover to timing control. A buddy was having cold start issues with his FITech. There are adjustments that can be made to the fuel prime that should help. My biggest complaint so far is the rpms coming down too far if I leave the clutch engaged too long when coming to a stop. I have read about some adjustments that can be done with the software that should take care of it though. My CANBUS cable comes today so I can link my laptop to the ECU. Should make it much easier to screw everything up.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 03/29/18 03:17 PM
I guess I don't know what I was expecting... I'm still hoping to be happy with this upgrade... it doesn't start or run like an efi car that's for sure... its hard to drive it though. we still have snow here.. lol
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 03/30/18 12:12 AM
It probably just needs to be tuned in the right area. These things are infinitely tunable if you know how. The Sniper is the low end EFI unit and with the software and a computer you can custom tune just about every little thing you would want to. The trick is knowing what and where you want or need to make those adjustments. There is so much you can do I'm sure I'll never completely figure it out. Once I get the major kinks gone I'll probably stop messing with it. There's only one or two small issues that I'm even looking at and I think I know where to go for it so I'm not worried. I justify this whole process as I could have spent half the money on a good carburetor and the other half on a Dyno-tune session. I'm still hoping I'll get both out of this goodie. There's also the issue of RF interference that seems to effect how well things work. I'm not altogether sure how one goes about diagnosing that condition.

I do know one thing...I feel totally ripped off. I got my cable link for the laptop hook up today. 6ft of two puny wires and a usb connection on the other end for $50. Are you serious?? Just because it's from Holley. I think I'm going to start knocking off these things and make a killing. Probably $3 worth of materials in this thing.
Kind of sweet and sour though because I also got my new trunk pan for the 67 delivered today too. One year and 5 months till retirement before I'm supposed to be able to start working on it. I don't think I'll be able to hold out that long.
Posted By: uconn86hgiv Re: EFI install - 03/30/18 03:23 PM
There are some great videos on Youtube related EFI v. Carbs and tuning. I'm kind of a Youtube junkie.

Here are a couple videos that compare EFI and Carbs.

This one shows a challenge between one guy tuning a carb and the other using EFI. My take away was that it might be worth consulting a pro when you start out with either one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGlRiapBEeY

This one is interesting because of the trouble they had getting the EFI to work. But in the end the EFI does shine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQJPZYSoUI

Enjoy.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 03/30/18 10:26 PM
I was just expecting it to start.. lol.. the whole cold start was the biggest reason I made this decision.. I live in maine.. its always cold.. hopefully when I get a few miles on it. it comes outta it..
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/01/18 01:45 AM
I wouldn't count on it. Seems like these things work one way until you change something to make it act different. Sure they " self learn" to a certain extent but I don't think they fix themselves without help. One thing I notice is you do have to let the thing prime before you hit the start or it takes a bit more cranking to get it started. You can bump up the amount of fuel gets dumped when it primes. Maybe doing that would fix your cold start issue. Today was the first trip out of the garage since hooking up timing control. It did die on me once when I was just sitting idling in traffic. And it would've a couple other times but I caught it in time. So that's something I have to look at. Also I have discovered that if i just push in the clutch when slowing down sometimes it will die but if I push in the clutch while my foot is still on the throttle some and then let off it won't. There's got to be a way to fix that if I can find it. I was at the race track today and one of the guys had a car running that had his endorsement graphic on the side for www.efiexpert.com. This guy actually offers online classes for tuning an EFI. He only advertises Holley and FAST but I think most all these units are pretty similar. If nothing else it would be nice to have an expert resource to bounce questions off or even just to explain what this or that adjustment is going to do. He said the class was $75. Probably money well spent. Easy enough to buy a new tool but it would be great if you had somebody show you how to use it.
Posted By: Hammered Re: EFI install - 04/04/18 10:21 PM
I think the self learning is over rated. From what I've read, it only self-learns the fuel mixture and then, only at relatively constant speeds. Timing, start-up, acceleration and deceleration all need to be programmed the old-fashioned way.

As for stalling under decel, have you looked at where your IAC position is at idle? if too low, that could cause your problem.
Posted By: uconn86hgiv Re: EFI install - 04/05/18 01:13 AM
I found some very interesting Youtube videos relate to EFI and carbs v. EFI. I tried to post the links but it appears that did not work. If you do a simple video search you should find them easy enough.

One thing that was very interesting is that they couldn't get their EFI to work well with a dual plane intake but it was flawless with a single plane. No doubt there are many variables.

Another video shoe significant advantages in ease of tuning and hp gains using EFI.
Posted By: Hammered Re: EFI install - 04/07/18 12:58 AM
The whole idea of a dual plane is to provide a better vacuum signal for a carb. I wouldn't think it would effect an EFI system that much unless maybe it confuses the MAP signal.

I have a car with it's factory rebuilt Q-jet and I still like my EFI better in every way except for the cost.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/07/18 05:55 PM
Adjusting my IAC is on today's to-do list. The bad thing about adjusting things on this is it has to be up to operating temp every time before you can do anything and with all this aluminum crap it takes forever to get there.
I was looking at some of the software this morning and there is an area for decel fuel adjustment. This might be something that will help. The specs say that when you take your foot off the gas the fuel is cut off. Maybe in my case I still need a bit of fuel to flow even after I take my foot off. It seems to make the difference when I do it myself and disengage the clutch.
Posted By: Hammered Re: EFI install - 04/13/18 12:00 AM
Adjust your IAC first. If the counts or percent (depends on how your system measures) is too low, you'll completely cut the air off when you let of the accelerator and the engine cannot compensate in time to avoid stalling.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/13/18 03:46 AM
Just got out today and adjusted the IAC. Saw a YouTube on how( gotta love YouTube). Nowhere in the intstallation or setup instructions did it say anything about how to do it( lame). It was way out of wack. It's in the ballpark now so I'm hoping that will take care of some of those issues I was having. That's for the advice John.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 04/15/18 01:07 PM
do you have a link to that u tube video? I seem to be having the same issues.. I cant find any tuning specs in the directions... it shows the read outs on the tablet but doesn't say if that's good or not..
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/15/18 03:29 PM
I don't think this is the one but this guy kind of shows how to change the setting. https://youtu.be/f4WPiAloYtA
You basically screw in the idle screw to lower the IAC setting and then cycle the key off and back on again to save it and re-set your TPS to 0. It took a couple of cycles to get mine down under 10%. The instruction say you want between 2 and 10. I have taken it out yet to see if it changed anything but at least it's set correctly now. So that's got to be better.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 04/20/18 09:58 AM
does your fuel pressure bleed off? mine done within a minute or 2 of shutting off the car....
I'm beginning to think the universal sump was a huge mistake..
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/21/18 02:43 AM
I don't have a FP gauge on it. I guess I am depending on the ECU to give me accurate readings. Doesn't it prime again every time you key on anyway?
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 04/21/18 10:00 AM
it does prime.. if I turn the key on.. wait 5 seconds for the pump to shut off.. key off.. back on, wait 5 more seconds.. .off.. on.. then start...it starts easier... when I had the tablet on watching the fuel pressure I noticed it bleeds off quickly.. I'm just assuming that if it held pressure I wouldnt be having the start issue with waiting. I'm in maine.. its 20 degrees this morning and it'll be 65 in 4 hours... this whole upgrade was centered around easy starts no matter what the weather.... I see they sell tanks set up for efi.. I originally didn't go that route because it said 70 plus psi and the efi was saying 58.... I'm wondering if the bleed off is the sump kit.. or the efi itself...
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/21/18 02:01 PM
You should be able to dial up the prime shot with more fuel if you need it. I know mine has a provision for it. I'm sure all of them do. Of course if you get too much then you run the risk of flooding the engine but it sounds like you might need more fuel initially.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/23/18 03:23 AM
Aw crap. I was going to drive my car to work yesterday. Pulled it out and shut it down to get my stuff. Restarted and got as far as the end of the driveway and she died. Restart, died again. Crap, out of gas. Well ok, so won't take it today. Put five gallons in it today and she fired up. Idled for awhile while I adjusted a couple of things. Then she died again. WTH? Started back up and the thing was freaking out. Started acting like I sucked up several valves or my timing chain jumped a couple of teeth. Knocking and backfiring and all hell. Tried several things and checked several others. Everything looked good. Decided I'd pull the distributor and go back to my regular HEI with no timing control. Half an hour later she's purring again( well as close as she gets to purring). Don't know what happened. Maybe like the ECU freaked out and the timing control feature retarded timing a butt load or something. Maybe one of the times it died the comp reset itself to some other off the wall settings. Not sure. Scared the hell out of me though. Was like the motor blew up or something. Going to try going a different angle at this thing see what I can do. The other dist was a kind of experiment. Seems that may have been a $75 fail.
Posted By: Hammered Re: EFI install - 04/26/18 02:08 AM
Regarding losing prime, mine does the same, but I don't know how quickly. If you fuel pressure regulator works while the car is running, than it should bypass only enough fuel to reach the target pressure after shutting down. Most likely it's the fuel pump which should have a check valve. Mine takes only one key on cycle and probably three seconds to reprime so you must have something strange going on. Perhaps a leaking injector or bad regulator which could be causing your timing issue. Most EFI systems use timing as the primary means to control the idle speed and if you watch your diagnostics, the timing varies greatly even when the car is idling as it should. Perhaps a fuel problem was causing the timing to retard or advance too much in order to control timing.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/26/18 01:46 PM
I hadn't considered that the timing control feature is what is used to control idle speed. I would've thought it was an increase or decrease in fuel flow or somehow self adjusting the TPS position.
Posted By: Hammered Re: EFI install - 04/28/18 12:46 AM
It's both, but the timing is used to smooth out the short term spikes and fuel is used over longer periods of time. I believe this is because idle speed reacts more quickly to timing changes. With it idling, look at your timing and you should see it moving up and down quite a bit.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/28/18 04:09 AM
Well I got my new doohickey in the mail yesterday so tomorrow I'm going to make another run at hooking up the timing control. We'll see if there are any lingering effects of last weeks episode. Going to hook up the laptop via the CANBUS cable and see if I can fine tune a couple other areas as well. Should be an interesting day.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 04/29/18 10:10 PM
I spoke with edelbrock... they told me that cycling the key on will reprime the system... and that the sump would not hold pressure.. its just frustrating theres no " normal" settings for cold starts... like a base setting.. I'm not sure where to start with cold start enrichment or crank fuel.. its completely trial and error... also there seems to be a lot of debate with timing... 18 initial.. 12 initial... ?.. I guess I was expecting a more detailed set up/instructions..
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 04/30/18 03:33 PM
I think they do that on purpose. Deniable accountability.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 05/18/18 10:53 PM
on goes the battle here... still fighting with starting issues.. its getting warmer now so its not as bad but only because its 50-60 instead of 10-20...runs pretty good when its warm although it does stumble a few times at idle here and there...
anyways... the radio wont work when the car is running.. I'm assuming there is interference with the dizzy or new efi... it was working fine before I started this.. it plays perfect with the key on and the engine off.. but when its running it cuts in and out...
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 05/21/18 01:08 AM
Weird.

Don't feel bad things aren't going that great here either. I finally gave up trying to run timing control with one of these big body HEI's. I broke down and bought the summit branded pro billet knock off and adjustable rotor. Getting delivered on Tuesday. Now if this doesn't get me there the unit is going back to Holley for a checkup.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 05/29/18 01:42 AM
So the new pro billet dist didn't do the trick either. Installed it just like the instructions say. Same as it was. Started reading some info on the net about one thing and another. Called Holley and their tech said it sounds like RFI issues. Says two ways to go, run without timing control or buy their Dual Sync distributor because the Hall effect design isn't affected by EMI/RFI . I have a hard time believing something I can't see or touch so I figure he's just blowing smoke up my skirt to get me to spend the bucks for their dist. Read one article where the guy was having similar issues and he removed the alt belt and thing changed drastically. I figure WTH? Don't cost nothing. So I drop the belt off the alt and miracle of miracles the car starts and actually runs pretty well. Belt on, no run. Belt off, runs. WTF??? Ok so now I'm starting to believe there may be something to this " electronic noise" they keep talking about.
So as of right now the pro billet is gong back, the car is going back to no timing control and I'm saving up another $150 to pay their blood money for the Holley distributor to manage these made up gremlins. I'm really hating electrical stuff right about now.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 05/29/18 10:44 PM
im not running timing control but I did change to a hall effect chip in my hei dizzy.. I have the car running pretty good.. I changed the radio and solved the cutting in and out issue... it was the radio.. all the wiring is exactly the same.. it was getting interference from the efi install... the retro sound had leads for the aux im thinking was acting like an antenna.. I don't think I solved the cold start issue either.. its just gotten warmer and the car is starting better.... still not what I was expecting... I was expecting it to start like a new car... If im being honest, atleast at this point im sorry I spent the money.. doesn't really start better or easier than a good tuned q jet
Posted By: bigchief Re: EFI install - 05/30/18 03:16 AM
I have heard the horror stories from friends that made the switch to EFI. One friend even had to send the system back to the manufacturer. These friends are pretty technical and handy but couldn't get the car to run as good as it should. It sure is an expensive and time consuming venture and not the primrose path as it's advertised.
The thing that gets me is I have a 1995 jeep with obd1 and it has never given any problems other than I had to change the crank sensor at 300,000 miles.
Why can't an expensive aftermarket EFI system be made to be reliable and simple as an OEM system ?
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 05/30/18 04:05 AM
We'll if you hop on one foot while mumbling the mechanics prayer and all the planets are aligned it will probably work like it's supposed to. I consider myself to be fairly handy in the garage but it's like trying to teach an old dog a new trick. Everything tends to be a struggle. Partially it's my lack of understanding and partially it's the lack of available information. Every new thing that comes up takes a week of searching to find out why it's happening and another week to find out there is something that can be done to fix it...or not. Lots of people are running these things now and presumably some are operating the way they were designed to. Some, like me, are struggling every step. I love learning something new but there quickly comes a point of diminishing returns. When the tech at Holley said, " you could just run without timing control" I was thinking I could've bought a pretty dam nice carb for a lot less than I spent on this gadget if that's all I wanted.

Jman, I have never heard of a Hall effect chip. Can you send me any info on it? Inquiring minds want to know.
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 05/31/18 01:29 AM
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-83647


I replaced the one in my dizzy with this one... something about it would not run right with out it..
Posted By: Bjorn Sefeldt Re: EFI install - 05/31/18 02:36 PM
Had a friend do this 6 years ago...tok several years to get it right...one main issue was gas tank....the pick up from it didn't like the original tank set up...on hills it would cut out...not enough baffles intank etc...after he installed in tank fuel pump , it got better..now finally its good. but he had all kinds of problems inititally


worst time was when we came back from the first FGF meeting in Estes Park...he got stuck in a long uphill in south Colorado....while were standing there (when someone went for gas to fill up tank so it could pick up..)...we noticed a sign :" Warning, bear crossing" !
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 06/01/18 10:32 AM
im thinking that's one of my problems too.... the tank.. the sump kit bleeds off fuel pressure so its always fighting to get the pressure .. I don't think the in tank set up bleeds off... im gonna run it for a few weeks and see how it goes.... over all its just not what I was expecting.. they kinda market these things as quick and easy with no cold start issues... not the case so far..
Posted By: Bjorn Sefeldt Re: EFI install - 06/01/18 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by jman01
im thinking that's one of my problems too.... the tank.. the sump kit bleeds off fuel pressure so its always fighting to get the pressure .. I don't think the in tank set up bleeds off... im gonna run it for a few weeks and see how it goes.... over all its just not what I was expecting.. they kinda market these things as quick and easy with no cold start issues... not the case so far..
If you got stock tank, I think its very well an issue
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 06/04/18 01:04 AM
That's not a Hall effect. That's a high energy module.
Posted By: jusride Re: EFI install - 06/06/18 12:59 AM
So after being dormant on this list for several years...like 7-10..I'm finally reviving my 1968 Firebird. I recently purchased the Tanks Inc. fuel tank (255 lph internal pump) along with the Sniper EFI system. Following this thread closely since I will be installing it at the end of this month (Firebird is getting bodywork and paint done currently).
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 06/06/18 10:26 AM
Option 1 - Pin A - NEGATIVE SIDE OF COIL (non CDI Ignition) With standard inductive ignitions, the negative post on the coil can be used as a RPM Trigger Input Source. If using the Negative Side of the coil as an RPM Trigger Input, use only the Tan/Yel lead provided in Pin A of the tach input connector. This is the only wire used and connects to the negative side of the coil. DO NOT USE THIS SOURCE IF RUNNING A CDI BOX OR ANY TYPE OF IGNITION AMPLIFIER, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED. Option 2 - Pin B - CDI BOX IGNITION Hall type signal input. If using a Capacitive Ignition Box (CDI) or any type of ignition amplifier with a designated hall type tach output signal, remove the Tan/Yel wire and insert only the Wht/Blk wire into Pin B. The Wht/Blk wire is the only wire used; it connects to the Tach Output pin or wire on a CDI Box. NEVER CONNECT PIN B TO THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF COIL WHEN RUNNING A CDI BOX OR ANY AMPLIFIED IGNITION, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED. DO NOT CONNECT TACH PIN ON HEI TO PIN B, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED.

Option 3 - Pin B - DESIGNATED HALL TYPE TACH SIGNAL OR TACH ADAPTERS. The Tach output pin on HEI Distributors and some other ignition systems tach sources are very dirty and cannot provide a clean tach signal to the ECU. In these situations a replacement HEI Module MSD part #83647 or tach adapter with Hall type output signal is recommended. The Hall type Signal output from either of these sources would connect to Pin B on the tach input connector. On MSD distributors this is usually a grey wire and is provided on some Ready to Run distributors also. DO NOT CONNECT TACH PIN ON HEI TO PIN B, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED. Pin C Ground - Pin C is provided for a ground source if necessary for some tach adapters and Mag or Hall type sensors. Do NOT ground to the block. Pin D - Not


that's from the directions... option 3.. they make a big deal about that part in a few places calling it a hall type tach signal...
Posted By: jman01 Re: EFI install - 06/06/18 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Bjorn Sefeldt
Had a friend do this 6 years ago...tok several years to get it right...one main issue was gas tank....the pick up from it didn't like the original tank set up...on hills it would cut out...not enough baffles intank etc...after he installed in tank fuel pump , it got better..now finally its good. but he had all kinds of problems inititally


worst time was when we came back from the first FGF meeting in Estes Park...he got stuck in a long uphill in south Colorado....while were standing there (when someone went for gas to fill up tank so it could pick up..)...we noticed a sign :" Warning, bear crossing" !


good call on this... I went back thru all the trouble shooting directions and one of the things was... older tanks causing random stalling... im gonna keep it near full and change the tank later in the season....
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 06/07/18 03:36 AM
Somebody sent me an advert awhile back that had some sort of cells that filled with fuel and connected to the pickup tube in the tank so even at times of low fuel levels there was always an available supply. I wanna say it was Holley but not sure. Looked like a good way to make sure you kept an uninterrupted supply.

After trying three different distributors I bit the bullet and ordered Holleys Dual Sync dist with the Hall effect. They are coming out with something they call Hyper Spark that is cheaper( the SBC version is out now for $279 ) but I know it will be a year or more before they offer it in Pontiac form. And then it'll be $75 more than the SBC version anyway. So we'll see if it takes care of all those nasty EMI gremlins that have been making my life harder for too long. I haven't decided if I will continue to run my 6al box or not. I have a few days to do some homework on it before the new dist arrives.
Posted By: Hammered Re: EFI install - 06/09/18 11:00 AM
I'm not sure about your system, but most EFI systems require the use of a spark box even with a dual-sync distributor.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 06/17/18 06:07 AM
Started the car up yesterday to check a few things out. Alternator unhooked( the only way it will run). It runs, not great, but it does run. It does seem to controlling the timing. I went to the wrecking yard today and picked up a cs130 alternator. Supposed to be more modern, less electronically noisy. We shall see if it makes any difference.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 06/22/18 03:35 AM
Update...
Well surprise, the cs130 didn't do the trick. Tried a few other things that didn't work either. Tried running the battery charge wire all by itself from the alt to the batt, tried a new ground wire all the way from the batt to the block. A couple other things too. No Bueno. Boxed the unit today and fedexed it to Holley for them to give it a good look over. I swear something must be broke or burned out. We'll see what they have to say in a couple weeks.

As of now I couldn't recommend buying the Sniper. It just seems too sensitive. If I was going to do it again I'd buy the FITech. They seem to be a better product.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 07/12/18 02:28 AM
Called Holley today. They tested the unit and it failed so they said they replaced the ECU. They will ship it on Friday. I'll probably get it end of next week. We'll see.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 08/07/18 11:14 PM
Quick update. After getting the unit back from Holley I finished up a few things like moving the coil away from the throttle body and running dedicated power and ground wires for the MSD and for the EFI. Got it installed back on the car and it fired right up. Have driven a few times now and all seems good except for a starter kickback issue. Not sure what that's about. Planning on making the run to Hot August Nights in Reno on Thursday( about 300 miles one way). Hoping all goes well.
Posted By: Firebob Re: EFI install - 08/21/18 01:12 PM
The latest...Back from Reno. Only problem I had associated to the Sniper was the Throttle Position Sensor went bad on me. Apparently it's been going bad for some time because replacing it has seemed to take care of the intermittent cutting out above 2600rps and also the starter kickback issue as well. It seems like I'm finally getting the bugs worked out of this thing. Still not sure why my fuel pressure is higher than its supposed to be but the Holley guys said its fine the way it is. He gave me another regulator to replace the old one if I want to.
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