Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Body Dampener Mounting

I don’t beleive it… I go to bolt these things into the trunk; now hard can that be? They don’t fit??? They seem to tall?

A) Since I’ve never seen rear ones I was sold the wrong ones? Looked thru the 1968 Fisher Body book and could’nt find a diagram. Are the front and rear cans the same size with just different brackets welded to them? Or are the rear ones shorter to fit in the trunk?

B) Do they mount inward tucked into the inside of the fender or are they mounted outwards to the interior of the trunk compartment?

A: If I’m not mistaken, the rear shakers bolt onto the rail at the bottom edge of the gutter. If there is no welded nut on the shaker, I think they lay against the rail on the opening side. It they still do not line up examine the trunk floor for rust swelling (?).

A: In the 1967 Firebird Service Manual figure 2-3 shows how the “Body Dampeners” bolt into the 1967 convertible. The 1967 rear dampener is different then the 1968. On the 1968 the top mounting tabs (2) point up and are higher then the dampener itself. These bolt to the rail as mentioned above. In 1967 there’s only 1 tab, it comes off the side of the dampener near the top and bolts to the “vertical quarter panel brace” that’s near the back of the trunk. I have a pair from a 1968. They look very original and are mostly semigloss black with spatter overspray on one side only.

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Q: Body Dampener Paint

How should the Body Dampeners (Cocktail Shakers) be painted?

A: My 1969 Convert. shakers have the same spatter paint treatment the trunk has, they blend in perfectly. This is original, the three previous owners all live within a short distance and do confirm this.

A: Mine are already out of the car. If I get home early enough tonight, I’ll try it. My shakers are original and have never been repainted. They are black (unknown gloss level as it has dulled through the years) and they have trunk overspray.

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Q: Body Dampers

What are the body dampers (cocktail shakers) use for found in the trunks of 1967s and 1968s?

A: I heard an interesting history of the cocktail shakers:

When Pontiac was given the Camaro chassis to make their Firebird from, their engineers were unhappy with the way the Camaro convertable would shake around at speed. It was late in the development cycle for 1967 so they had to make a quick fix. They used a classical mechanical engineers solution of putting in dampers. They are a weight penalty, but worked very well. I think Chevy saw that solution and started putting them in Camaros too. I quess that today these little known canisters with weights and springs stand as a tribute to the superiority of Firebird over Camaro!

A: Concerning vibration dampers. Front dampers weight 25 pounds while the rear dampers weight 50 pounds each and are attached by three bolts. In the trunk there is a support brace between the trunk floor and the trunk gutter (there is re-enforcing frame work under the edge that the brace welds to. One bolt goes through the support brace and the other two go through the trunk floor. Under the trunk floor there is a thick steel plate the has nuts welded to it for damper attachment…usually the nuts are rusted away. Im not sure if the 1968 mountings are different.

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Q: Canisters/Body dampers – revisited

I have a 1968 Firebird Conv with a 350 and 2-speed Powerglide. I have discovered a canister behind the drivers side headlights in the fender. It is a steel cylinder weighing about 20-30 lbs, possibly fluid filled. It is about 10 inches high with a diameter of about 4 inches. It is sealed with no external connections going anywhere. It has brackets that make it look like it was mounted there from the factory. It does have a bolt in a hole in the center of the top that may be plugging a past connection. Any ideas?

A: The device you are describing is known as a “Vibration Dampener” or “cocktail shaker”. There are actually four of them, one for each corner of the vehicle. They are only used with convertibles and help counteract vibrations with the body. Suppositly inside there is a spring and lead ball with fluid. I have expericed convertible rides with and without them and it does, in my opinion, make a difference in ride. Pontiac added these devices to the Firebird first and then Chevy followed suit with the Camaro. I do not believe that the Camaro shakers are compatable with the Firebird. So if you are missing ones, they can only be replaced with Firebird ones. Hope this explains your new find.

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Q: Body Mount Selection

Now it’s time to restore my front suspension, my question is what bushings to use. Plain rubber, urethane, PST-Polygraphite, nylon bushings??

It would be very interesting to hear your experience regarding road noise, squeaks and stiffness.

A: My horrendous experience with polyurethane dictates that I never try THAT again! The car was almost as stiff as a hard-tailed motorcycle, and squeaked like crazy. I also drove that 66 GTO that MuscleCar Review did a restification on using polyurethane, same problem there. To convince me that the graphite loaded product works is going to be a VERY hard sell!

The original rubber works best for all-around comfort; I didn’t mind giving up a little for the steel/nylon bushings to get a noticable handling gain. Good luck.

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Q: Front Spring Removal

How do I remove my front springs? Do I need a spring compressor and/or other equipment?

A: Hey guys, I was a technician and did a lot of front end work, and never needed a spring compressor on a GM F car (first gen) or GM A car (second gen – 68-72) unless it was too much spring. The spring can relax to the point where you can jockey it out with a prybar (very big!), and pop it back in with a push from the heels of both feet (spring needs to be lined up well at bottom). Spring compressors get in the way, unless you get the one that goes inside the spring with each end having 2 hinged hooks. I can’t remember who makes that one though!

A: Once I figured out how to finagle the compressor up through the lower control arm and adequately compress the spring, it was all very easy after that. The second side went much faster than the first. Safety was my prime motivator here, that’s why I used the chain. I’m not sure I like the idea of fooling with that spring the way you describe. I’d sure hate to see it jump out and tear someone up. I’m sure there might of been an easier way of doing it the way I did, but you weren’t around last year. 🙂 The local parts store “rented” the spring compressor to me for free for the weekend.

A: With all that i ll tell you a short story about springs. While a friend was doing a frame off resto to a certain triple black 1968 400 convert. ( see the calander shot someone sent in) he was removing the front springs and one got away from him…. It landed on the nextdoor neighbors roof!!! Keep in mind that a compressed spring has alot of stored energy I like to use a floor jack to help and also throw a heavy blanket over the spring until its complety uncompressed.

A: I have been busy for a while, and actually am still busy, but I wanted to respond to this one. Be very careful with this method!!! I tried it on my Catalina over the summer, and it worked great till when I put the spring back in. I actually used a spring compressor for the job, but I had the frame on jack stands, and the jack under the control arm. Slowly jacked the control arm until I could attach the night for the ball joint…didn’t realize the car was being jacked up, not the control arm. Promptly dropped a two ton car in the driveway. Only thing bruised was my ego.

Be very careful. In my case, the combination of the spring and the location of the jack caused the whole car to lift, not the control arm. Thought I would pass that hard learned lesson on.

A: To put your coils back in you have two options (both require compressing them).

Warning: You must use a safety device like chains to keep an accidental release from killing, maming or destroying someone (maybe youself). I am not the source of safety, so read up on safety somewhere else.

That being said, here are the options:

1. Utilizing a spring compressor (the type that goes in the middle of the spring), simply compress it and then place it between the “A” arms. Bolt up the ball joints an you are done.

2. The spindle must already be bolted in place to the upper ball joint. Put the uncompressed spring in place. Jack up the lower A-arm slowly, using the weight of the vehicle to compress the spring. Carefully bolt in the lower ball joint.

Finish up with tie rod ends, etc and you are done. Bye the way, once upon a time, I used the wrong type of spring compressor when removing a spring (a cheapo third world country job). In the process, the compressor bolt broke. Fortunately, I had tied everything up with aircraft cable and chains. When the compressor broke, the spring did not fly out, but it did slam the A-Arm into the concrete and put a deep gouge in the floor of my brand new garage. Safety is oohhhh sooo important….

A: On another note. A few months ago some of you were discussing the best method of removing the front springs. My mechanic neighbor told me how he does it but I wanted to try it before I reported to you all. Well I did it the other day and it went great. No special tools or spring compressors are needed. I don’t think that it is any more dangerous than any other method. First remove the wheel, drum/disk assy., brake line, shock and cotter pins. The car should be jacked up as high as possible so you will have all of the ground clearance you can get. Loosen the upper and lower ball joint castle nuts but leave them threaded on completely. This is where it gets weird-but works. Use a small sledge hammer to deliver a few brisk strikes to the ball joint knuckle casting (don’t know what the correct name for this is.) The ball joint should just pop loose because of the spring pressure. I suppose that after a few hits if it doesn’t work you should use a fork to separate the joint so you don’t crack the casting. Use this method until both the upper and lower ball joints are loose. Once this is done then place a floor jack under the lower A-arm, jack it up enough so that you can remove the lower castle nut then with a chain wrapped around the spring and frame (for safety) lower the A-arm until the spring falls out. Installation is reverse of removal. Please let me know if this is a bad method because it is the only time that I have done it.

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Q: Koni Shocks

I am wondering if someone out there has Part #s handy for front and rear Koni Shocks to fit my 1968 Firebird. It’s going to be a daily driver.

A: I know that PST ( 800-247-2288 ) has KYB’s You get all four for $119 – Free shipping too.

A: These are the ones (I still have the boxes from 10 years ago) Front – 80-1914; Rear – 80-1915SPA1. The rear number is for 60 Camaro, there was no listing for 1969 ‘bird, but they work fine.

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Q: Leaf Spring Bushing Removal

I am replacing the leaf spring bushings on my 68. I was wondering if anyone knew an easy way to remove the old front leaf spring press in bushings. I would rather not take the springs anywhere to have the bushings removed. thanks

A: The rubber bonds it self to the metal, so that its impossible to press or beat them out. Heating them to the point of burning is smelly and dangerous.

Try this.. Use a round hacksaw blade and insert thru the bolt hole. Reassemble the hacksaw frame with the blade inside the bushing and spring eyelet. Cut from the inside of bolt hole outward until you almost hit the steel. (dont knick or cut the steel as the spring eyelet could later fracture in this spot.) Do this in 2 spots near each other so as to make a triangular shaped piece that can be removed by prying out. The entire piece thats left can be removed by grasping the outer lip with a pair of Channellocks and twisting.It also helps to remove the lip on the backside by cutting with a flat hacksaw blade. Its tough but after the first,you can have them out in a matter of minutes. Make sure to polish the inside of eyelet with wire brush and sandpaper before installing new bushings.

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Q: Rear Spring Replacement

I’m about to start upgrading my rear springs. I was wondering if buying direct from Eaton was the best way to go. I’ve heard about springs raising the rear end too high. What about shackles, bolts and other stuff. My can is not a rust bucket, so most of my stuff is in good shape.

A: I bought my springs from ESPO Springs `n’ Things, and was quite happy with the results. Along with the springs, I got new ubolts, pads, shackles, bushings, and t-bolts. Everything arrived on time or even early, was not at all expensive, and worked fine.

One of the better aspects was that the springs could be ordered with either stock height, lower, or higher than stock by what ever amount you specify. The ride is good and I believe that they get their springs from Eaton.

As I’ve pointed out in the past, some spring suppliers will send you a generic spring that’s really meant for a Nova which has a different ride height and spring rate than our cars. ESPO offers much better variety of options.

Keep in mind that your present springs may have sagged a fair amount over the years. If you specify a lower than stock spring, don’t be too suprised if you find that once the new springs are in place, your car will sit higher than before.

http://www.espo.com/

http://www.eatonsprings.com/

With either ESPO, or Eaton themselved, you’ll save quite a bit of money versus buying from one of the usual restoration parts retailers.

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Q: Rear Springs for 1967

Does anyone know if there is such a thing as aftermarket multi-leaf springs that will directly bolt with a 1967 mono-leaf rear end? My mono-leafs seem to have sagged a bit over winter, or I didn’t notice before I put it in storage. I would much rather have multi-leafs than replacing the inferior mono set-up. Any leads would be appreciated.

A: All the “re-pop” companies sell replacement springs and the multi-leaf springs will bolt to car with a few problems. The problem is when you go to bolt the multi-leaf to the mono-leaf rear-end. The multi-leaf have a centering bolt the hold all the leafs together. The mono-leaf rear-end have no provision for this bolt. You can install a set of spacers between the perch and the spring to remedy this problem. Otherwise, with new longer U-bolts they will bolt right up.

A: The perches are about one inch deeper on cars that came with multileaf springs than monoplate equipped cars.

A: Having done this swap (from mono to multi) I can verify that the perches are different. The reason being is the through bolt at the center of the springs. This bolts holds all the leaves together. The bolt head sticks out of the bottom and there is no provision for this on a mono leaf perch. You can buy a spacer to slip under the spring that has a hole in it for the bolt. Otherwise, you’ll have to remove the old perches and weld in new ones.

A: No stock or aftermarket spring is made that uses the mono-leaf hardware.

In order to use multi-leaf springs on a mono-leaf car, you need the following:

`

• leaf spring and shock anchor plate-2 ea. (these plates differ from the mono-spring type)

• leaf spring U bolts-4 inches wide-2 pair (longer, obvously, to bolt the thicker multi-leaf springs)

• rear shock extenders-2 ea. (multi-leaf type shocks are 2 inches longer, due to the new spring and shock anchor plate)

• spring shackle bolts-4 ea. (yours are probably rusted and will break when you remove them)

• leaf spring pads-2 ea.

Classic Industries sells a complete kit with all of the above parts for $69.95. This does not include the springs, which are $179.00 (on sale) a pair for 4 leaf, and $129.00 for 5 leaf. Some people have reported a stiff ride, and a taller than expected ride height with 5 leaf springs.

In addition, I’d suggest new bushings and possibly shackles as well.

A: I was just talking to the owner of a local Pontiac speed shop about my sagging rear leaf springs. He recommended that I look into a set of fiberglass mono-leafs instead of retrofitting my 1967 rear end with the Classic Industries multi-leaf kit. He couldn’t remember who the manufacturer(s) were but said that “they advertise in various Pontiac magazines from time-to-time”. Does anyone know where to get them, and has anyone had any experience with them?

A: Check out www.vettebrakes.com and look under camaro suspension.

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Q: Refurbishing Suspensions

Since there seemed to be others interested in refurbishing their suspensions, I am posting my experience in working on mine and a question about a noise problem.

Over the past few days I worked on both the front and rear suspensions of my 1968 Firebird 400. I replaced the 30-year-old springs and 16-year-old bushings and, in the case of the front-end, the ball-joints, along with a few sundry items. Below is a description of what I did, the results, and a plea for help with one problem.

Front: I used standard MOOG bushings and ball-joints, just like last time, and Classic Industries’ coil-springs and bumpers. A local machine-shop did the actual control-arm work. This was long-overdue maintenance (the upper bushings were missing large chunks of rubber). Getting the lower control-arms to line up with the frame (re-assembly) was even less fun than I remembered it being the last time I did this. I would LOVE to have the original GM tool for this step.

Rear: I used Classic Industries’ leaf-springs and mounting kit. The old springs had 5 leaves. The new springs had 5 leaves and a thick mounting plate on the bottom side. The combined thickness was too much for the mounting hardware, so I removed the plate (which made the new spring look more like the old spring) and mounted the remaining assembly.

The mounting kit came with two U-bolts per leaf, but the original assembly had one U-bolt and two smaller bolts per side. The new U-bolts were longer than the originals and extended closer to the ground, so I used all of the original bolts.

The mounting kit also came with new shackles and hardware, which I used, with the exception of the shackle nuts and the front eye bracket-to-frame press-nuts. The old shackle nuts were the more-secure cinch type (like a castle-nut, but the slots aren’t big enough to accomodate cotter pins); the new ones were plain. The old bracket-to-frame nuts were more substantial than the new ones.

The hardest part was the requirement that all the bolts be torqued after the car is on the ground. I definitely could have used a lift or a service pit.

Results: The ride height increased by roughly an inch, both front and back. The suspension once again has life to it, and the car no longer bottoms out during normal driving (haven’t tried getting airborne yet). The steering is tight again. Thanks for all of the advice/information I received here. The project was a definite improvement.

Problem: However, between 30 and 40 MPH, VERY low-frequency road noise is amazingly loud inside the car. Until now I’d never had this problem. Does anyone know what this is? Are the new mounting pads to blame, or perhaps removing the spring mounting plates? Will the sound lessen over time? It’s really loud, and very low frequency. I’d appreciate any input.

A: Did you use/replace the rubber isolators on the new rear springs? Mounting them solidly is OK for road racing or drag racing but not good for street cruising. Also what kind of spring and a-arm bushings were used /replaced? forget the urethane for the same reasons. Stick with the GM stuff for the nicest package.

A: The problem turned out to be the shackles rubbing on the body. The bolt holes on the new shackles in the installation kit were about a quarter inch farther apart center-to-center than the old ones. The added length made the bottom edge contact the body panel below the rear bumper.

Thanks for the suggestion. All bushings are plain rubber. The new springs came with new stock rubber bushings. After this experience, I don’t even want to think about solid mounts.

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Q: Removing Struts Problem

I’m dismantling my front suspension for painting. The problem is the shocks don’t fit thru the holes in the lower control arms, so I can’t remove them. Anyone had this problem ?? Is there a safe way to dismantle everything without pulling out the shocks and springs first. I should say that the subframe is off the car.

A: Normally just rotating the shock so that the flats line up with the flats in the control arm opening is enough to do it. I had a frame with “road leveler” shocks that had helper springs over the shocks. If you have those, you could find the end of the spring, get it started through the control arm, and rotate the entire helper spring through the control arm opening. Not fun. I was able to release the C clip at that top that held the two halves of the helper spring perch to the shock, and then remove the shock without the helper spring. If do you have the helper springs it may be easier to cut them apart in place.

A: The typical way to remove shocks is through the hole at the bottom of the lower control arm. I’ve never had a shock that would not fit through that hole. Unless somebody’s added a shock larger than that hole, you should be able to pop the clip nuts off the bottom of the lower control arm, then it should fit.

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Q: Ride and Handling Package

My 1969 Convert. came w/ the Ralleye Pkg. The ride and handling pkg. came w/ that. What is the ride and handling pkg? Include?

A: There were two Ride and Handling packages available. One cost $4.21 (with all 400s) and the other was $9.48 (with 6 cyl and 350s). Unfortunately, I can’t find any details, only mention of springs and shocks.

A: Basically, they are the same package, but cost differently since the 400 cars were already upgraded in that area. When I went to the spring section of the parts book, it referred you to the spring charts in the illustrations section. All the price lists and the original car order form just state “ride and handling package – springs and shocks”. I got my sales folders out, and in the accesories catalog it states “Ride and Handling Package (Code 621 – UPC Y96) For improved cornering and handling – extra-firm front and rear springs and shocks, for all Pontiac models. Heavier stabilizer bar for Tempest and Pontiac series.”

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Q: Ride Height too High

I have 14×6 Rally II’s all around I have rebuilt the front end but it seems WAY to height using the original springs!!!!!!!!!! So I don’t quite know what I did!

The second thing is should I get 5 or 4 leaf rear springs? which are better if there is much of a difference…I’m not good with planning ride height at all!

A: When you assembled the front suspension, did you leave the control arm bolts (through the bushings) loose until the car sat down on the wheels to tighten them? If not, the twist in the bushings could hold the car too high. Either that, or the tops of the front springs are not properly seated in the upper perch. Or maybe both conditions exist.

A: A mistake a lot of newbies make is to torque the front control arm bolts down while the car is still in the air, and the suspension is unloaded. This introduces bind, and also results in excessive ride height and lousy ride.

Raise your car with the suspension unloaded, then loosen the bolts. Now put some jack stands under the control arms and let the car rest on the suspension. Torque the bolts down according to spec.

Once the car is back on the ground, it should be back to the ride height you started out with.

Another thing to check on is to make sure that the bottom of the coil spring (pigtail) is in the molded in pocket in the lower control arm. Not getting it into this pocket will raise the can about an inch or so. If it’s out of place, you’ll need to compress the springs, seperate the upper ball joint, and reseat the spring.

But my money is on the control arm bolts.

Rear Leaf Springs Some spring suppliers sell 5 leaf springs, which are often Nova springs that they pawn off on the unsuspecting. Nova, Camaro, and Firebird leaf springs will all fit, but not necessarily result in the desired ride height. First gen Firebirds left the factory with lower ride heights than their Camaro cousins. The Fisher Body Guide lists the measuring points and expected dimensions for those with stock sized tires restoring to the factory settings.

Many of us have has very good luck with springs from ESPO Springs -n-Things, or Eaton Springs (ESPO sources their springs from Eaton). They offer stock height, lower, or raised ride height springs. Both have web pages that you can locate by company name in a good search engine. Much better pricing than the restoration houses.

Planning ride height is a matter of determining what you want. Duplicate the factory settings? Get the stock replacement springs. Want to lower or raise the car? Determine how much, and then talk to their order desk help. Keep in mind that as your car ages, the factory springs will settle, and the car will sit lower than original. Some buyers have been suprised to order new stock type springs, and have a car sitting higher than before they made the swap.

Also, new springs need some time/miles to settle to the correct ride height. Usually a couple hundred miles is all it takes.

So, once you get the springs in, the car settles as much as it’s going to, then take some measurements to see what needs to change, if at all. You may have to make changes because each car is different, and there is some chance that your car will still not be at the expected ride height after installation.

If the rear is too low, you can add another leaf or get the springs re-arched. This can be done at a shop that specializes in 4 wheel drive suspensions.

If too high, take a leaf out, get the springs re-arched, or as some spacers between the spring pack and axle tube. For the front, if too high, cut a coil or change to another spring. If too low, the only good choice is to replace the spring. Spacers and such are just a poor crutch and are not a good long term fix.

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Q: Spiral Shocks for 1968

I’m looking for a set of original correct 1968 Firebird spiral shocks.

A: …I too have been chasing ‘Sprial’ Shocks for a few years now. I have found a couple of NOS shocks (1 rear, 1 front) as well as some used one’s. Still trying to find the correct, part numbered units for a 1968 Firebird (I know, that seems a bit ridiculous since this basic configuration was used on all 1967-1969 Firebirds, Camaros and ’68-’72 Novas, etc.. but, I enjoy the hunt 😉 Anyhow, there are a couple of people selling NOS/OEM Spiral Shocks in Hemmings…. Jim Shiro, Jim Stubbings (Heartbeat City) and this other guy…. cwfoods@ix.netcom.com (R.V.A… Ross). They are all from the same ‘find’ and are front only. Date codes are in the mid to late 70s but application is basically the same. These have been selling for around $120 pr or so. They are not exact replacements for a 1968 Firebird as far as numbers matching. Not sure how they compare to originals as far as performance or ride.

Have you found a source for rebuilding these shocks ? Once upon a time, there was a place that claimed to be able to rebuild them but I’ve not heard anymore about them in quite sometime. Seems there would be a huge demand for a reproduction of the original Delco Sprial Shocks considering the wide-range of applications. If they made enough of them, the price would be low enough for even the everyday-drivers to buy them. Obviously, the internals would be upgraded. Which brings up the issue of finding NOS shocks. What do you suppose the condition is of the seals in 30+ year old shocks ? Same as with old decals, rubber floor mats, weather seals, Hoses, Belts. Be careful when buying these types of NOS parts…. just because something is NOS does not make it the better part.

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Q: Suspension Parts for Rebuild

I am rebuilding my front end, were is the best place to buy all the suspension parts ,Ball Jounts,tie rods,control arm bushings etc.

A: I’ve done some $$ comparison (as of January 2000):

PST (800-247-2288) has an KIT for – $149 (rubber) – $219 (polygraphite) it includes:

2 upper and lower ball joints
4 upper inner control arm bushings
2 or 4 Lower inner control arm bushings
2 strut rod bushings (if needed)
2 outer tie rod ends
2 stabilizer links
2 sway bar bushings (gotta measure the bar, I think Its either 1.375 or 1.625)
Control arm bushings

They also have a kit for – $289.00(rubber) – $359 (polygraphite) that includes the above as well as:

1 idler arm
2 innner tie rod ends
2 tie rod adjusting sleeves
2 upper innner shafts

Year One (800-YEAR-ONE) doenst give a complete kit ya gotta buy them seperatly – Classic Industries (800-854-1280) claims to carry (polyurethane suspension kit) “everything you’ll need”, that includes everything but no sway bar bushings for $189.95.

As far as shocks go – i dunno. I do know however you can get a set of 4 KYB gas shocks for $119.00 from PST. i’ll probably buy from PST just because they seem to have it together. I havnt ordered any of this yet I’m waiting on something. I dont know what – but I’m waiting. Good luck let me know.

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Q: Traction Bars for 1967 and 1968

I was recently browsing the archives and seen information about what firebirds came with traction bars. I am confused to what models got what type of traction bar.

I have a 1967 Firebird convertible with a 326 two barrel but I have two traction bars. This car is not a high output model. And to my knowledge this car is original.

A: 68s didnt have traction bars.

1967s breakdown:

• OHC-6 1bbl auto. none (exception is rear end ratio 323 or higher) OHC-6 1bbl man. RH side

• OHC-6 4bbl. auto. RH side

• OHC-6 4bbl. man. both sides

• V-8 2&4bbl. auto. RH side

• V-8 2&4bbl. man. both

I also found that the rear end ratio or type in this case determined the option of one or two bars or radius rods. i.e. if a car has a 4 pinion rear end it will have both bars. this is for posi and open 4 pinion rears.

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