i was sitting back wondering why a pos camaro is bringing so much more than a firebird.and i came up with a theory.we,us firebird owners don't put the value on them.we are the ones that are devalueing out own cars by paying so little for them.and by selling them so cheap.if we profess they are worth less than the junkmaro,than it will become reality.i would never in this lifetime pay more for any junkmaro than i would pay for a firebird

TY Terry. This board is the biggest insult to a bird being anything other than birdshit. Look at the members! That much for that car? That's too much money.

The bird experts around here want to make me puke! Picked up a bird a few months ago, googled around, and the next thing you know, they are the world's foremost expert.

Why is it that the cars sell for the prices that eveyone around here screams are too high? Oh yeah, 100% of the consumers are idiots. The 3 to 5 people here are the know it alls.

Terry, you need to come around here. The chitmaro goes for more, but the bird goes for a bunch more around here than what the experts around here would like to see as fair market value.

For instance, a guy had a 9 with some issues. Brought it to a cruise and was asking $12k. Didn't come back the next week. A few weeks before, a guy had an 8 that looked as if done well. Asking $22k for it. It didn't come back the next week.

The problem is that you're hanging out with the wrong crowd. Notice my hangout has wayned? The market around here, governed by however many thousand idiot consumers, doesn't agrew with couple of know it alls here. But I will add that the fgf board members do eveything in their power to destroy the bird's worth.

The reason Camaros sell for more than a Firebird?

Firebird was a mid year release with limited production, about 60% less than Camaro. 81,000 Firebirds were produced in 1967 wheras 210,000 Camaros were produced.

Camaros were involved with Trans Am circuit racing.

Camaros were identical (body platform) but cheaper than the Firebird.

So with that being said, you have well over 550,000 Camaros on the market from 1967-9. In that same timeframe, 278,000 Firebirds were produced. There was more affinity for the Camaro as it is today. GM did offer more drivetrain options (and higher HP) than did Pontiac, yet the Firebird still was faster than any factory Camaro.

Cloning or RS, RS/SS and Z/28 without the ability to cross reference the clone (PHS) has a part to play in the Camaro market.

Any first gen Camaro in the same condition will always outsell the Firebird in any market 90% of the time. The way it is and will always be...it is called "Camaro"...

I bought my first Bird in 1988, when I was 17. Have owned 15 since then and only one "parts car" that was incidentally a 326 HO and eventually restored.

Like I have heard, value is what one is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to sell for. I paid $11k for my 68 HO and want to sell it for 20k to buy another 68 HO or a RAI. Is 20k worth it? Depends on who you ask and who wants a numbers matching, low production Firebird in great condition.

If one thinks that the 67-9 Firebird market is devalued or otherwise impacted by a board with 4100 members, and if each one, in fact owned (1) Firebird, I should sell all mine right now. There were 280,000 Firebirds produced, likely 200,000 survive. I doubt 2% is enough to crash the Firebird market. And of those 2% on this board, 95% of us have not sold our cars or caused "devaluation". That leaves us with roughly 250 members selling their cars or a car per annum. I have not seen 250 cars for sale on this board over the past 8 years of this boards existance

I know what your saying about some of the "values" being put out by some members are lower than reality. But I can't see a handful of people on a website affecting the whole market unless you're talking just the buying/selling in this website.

It really comes down to supply/demand. The Camaro is just much more popular and therefore brings in higher value. Sad, but true.

I'm not in this for the value anyways. I just love the hobby and I love Firebirds. Works out nice for me because if I was into Camaros I doubt I could afford one. I will never sell my car, so if someone tells me tomorrow the value dropped to half I could care less. As a matter of fact I'll go buy a second one. That way I always have one to drive while I work on the other.

As far as my reflections on cars that are presented for peer review, the last thing I look at is price. People presenting these cars are looking for an opinion. I would turn down a free car if it was not "worth" restoring. Let someone else take it on. I won't advise anyone who has not rebuilt a car to purchase one that needs far more work than other similarly priced cars, or that has issues that are beyond the scope of the owner or local service facilities to repair at reasonable cost. Those cars are more suited for the resto-modder or restorer who has the time and skill to do his or her own work.

I regularly pass on cars that are far better than those other members are or have been restoring. That's my personal preference, I have a 185 year old house that is a money pit, I do not need a fleet of money pit cars. Work on them, fix them, fine but bringing them back from the grave is not something I care to do.

In my opinion you cannot pay too much for a desirable, rare option, low production, numbers matching car in rust-free condition. If properly preserved, the market will eventually catch up to it, whatever you paid. The same cannot be said for rotted out cars.

Boy, A-freaking-men!! (That means amen!)

Here is my solution to the above valuation issue:

FOR SALE: Numbers matching '68 Firebird 'vert. Will provide PHS documentation.
Engine modified but, all original parts come with car.



$50,000(will deliver)

And you might just find a buyer. But if someone offered you the cash, would you be a willing seller?

I have a stock 68 Sprint and people have asked me if I wished that I had bought a Camaro instead. I tell them that no, Camaros are too common. I prefer a rarer car and I love driving an OHC. After driving a 4 cyl soccer mom van for years, the stick shift 'hot rod' is a lot of fun. I can't wait to take it to a show and end up being the only cammer there. I didn't have my car restored in order to re-sell it so its market value isn't important to me. I think it's worth half a mil in enjoyment and spectator awe.
Liz

Vikki, I think I'd have to consider a sale at that level. I'd start over again with another FGF...probably 2!!!

well, amazingly enough I ALSO HAVE AN OPINION...
ITS Not THE CARS , ITS THE PEOPLE , THAT SET THE VALUES...

In my opinion (better say that) its that because there were so many more Camaros out there ,and cheaper , that made for many more buyers.in late 60`s,...the people that bring these values up are the ones that in those days either
1) had those cars ,
or
2) wanted those cars that evberybody had..

so at 'midlife' crisis...what do most buyers remember?? those many Camaros that "others had" or you wanted and never got, or you had and want again...many more buyers = brings the price up...just like any other commodity...


and remember this, that I told you this year, 15_+ yrs from now houses are going to go dirt cheap!
why? baby boomers...will be selling homes or die out from them, and then...more sellers than buyers...b/c generation after is less number of people....= less buyers ,market goes down...

anyway , just my opinion....for whatever its worth...

Bjorn, the more houses than buyers is here and now in Michigan. But now you can buy those baby boomer houses nearly new, as so many owners have moved away to find work, or to smaller houses that they can marginally afford instead of the McMansions of 2000-2003 when the auto industry was booming. For Sale signs everywhere, nice houses sit on the market for up to a year.

Chevy has always had more market share than Pontiac. More people have memories of Chevys. That accounts for the popularity and price increase of Chevy products. But that does not explain the price boom of Mopars, which are FAR lower production. All the years of 'Cuda and Challenger production would not add up to one year of Camaro production. So there is more to it than familiarity.

It's all about what the people who have disposable income want. With all the new musclecar and complete reproduction 2nd gen TAs, tri-5 Chevys, and '69 Camaros, the real thing will have to compete with the copies. Firebirds, for now, are only available in "the real thing".

Everytime I go to a car show, someone asks if it's for sale. My response is always...why yes it's always for sale, make an offer... No one has ever offered a number on the spot, but there is always plenty of interest because you don't see firebirds as often as camaros.

I have had offers on the spot for my '69, from people who are regular buyers at the local shows. Though very tempted, I haven't bit yet. Offers are more than double my investment in the car, but it will take more than that to pry it away from me.

Hey, if we don't sell our cars when offered high sums, we are depressing the market! Does that mean Camaro owners aren't as attached to their cars as we are?

We've been offered a lot of money for our Bird and we've had people pushing us to sell our Bird. We keep tellin them no and they keep pushing. They always have the comment...everything has a price. Not our car. We've also had some dumb offers...like 2 motorcycles that were junkers...$200.00. Yeah, right...dream on. LOL. Nevada has a market for all muscle cars. Could be because of Hot August Nights. Our Bird isn't for sale no matter how much money.

Same here. There is no amount of money that would sway me. This Bird has been mine for 97% of it's life and almost 2/3 of mine.

now for sale... any car for the right price! just how much do you want to spend? most will pony up the cash if your willing to sell. if they want it, they'll pay for it! i however want double what mines worth and its cut up right now. its going back together slowly but im doing a frame off and will do it to the quality of a $50,000 camaro. ill probably get half that when i sell but i will still make money on it after i'm done using up the "fun" factor from it. and even then i'll still have a hard time selling!

andy

I have finally come to the realization that I will have 40K into mine by the time I am done. I am sure I would take quite a hit if I sold it right away, but that is just not going to happen.

true, we had that here in the early /mid 80`s too, but I`m talking of a nation wide thing ,which will happen when baby boomers retire , die off... more sellers than buyers...not because of mortgage problems or other local things, but real people numbers

Hate to dis-agree with you Bjorn, but that is just not going not happen. Over time, real estate will always increase in value. (With specific area exceptions of course. i.e. Detroit, etc.)

ok, hold your breath....been to seminars on this too...they just dont want the 'market' to hear about it...'real estate' "usually" goes up, mainly meaning land...

not houses....

when there are more sellers than buyers , price goes down....

its going to be the same situation as social secrurity ,unless fixed... less paying in than receiving...

just to give you some info ...
I`m an architect...my wife real estate agent, my brother in law is a home builder (I work for him ,we are no 28 in the country) , and he is dealing land as part of our companys businnes, I`m involved in land deals too as part of my retirement fund...so I DO check this...

I keep telling friends that if you want to use your one time exclusion on real estate profits , do so during the next 10 yrs...

but, just my opinion...of course...no pressure

After working on Wall Street all summer trading commodities, i learned quite a few things about everything in the market.
My boss who is market wizard i Chit you not specifically stated and i quote: "Michigan is the place to buy real estate." within a few years, hopefully not too many, you'll be able to make a least 200-300% profit on your investment. imagine that.

Well, I know this is off the original topic, but talk about a realestate maess- FL! We just purchased a home that sold 50 months ago for $249k and we just paid $159k. And it took us 4 weeks to get a committment from the lender due to the disaster in the state of FL housing market. A real mess that's for sure. Nonetheless, I feel we bought well and at a great price. We locked in at 6.75% and even that is pretty good from what I see. We ar moving the weekend of Spet. 15th

where in florida my friend?

"Michigan is the place to buy real estate." within a few years,


ok I buy that...ask the wizard about 15 yrs from now...what does HE think about Baby Boomers time to sell?

I for one plan to sell within 10 yrs..

As I went thru the "local" market early 80`s , I know it can be bad...bought a 250k house in 83 ,while still holding on to the old , thinking I`d refinance (I took a "temporary" ARMs note)after I sold the old...well after I sold the 8 mo later , my house had gone down to 150k, had to come up with 100K to refinance! took 7 yrs until market came back and I could get back 97% of what I paid for it...

Ditto! I get offers all the time. Had one for $50,000 for my convertible. But I called the guy's bluff. I've had a $10,000 offer for the cammer... I should have taken that one. I could find a much better base coupe for that money. But I love this car for what it is, low 'bird in the pecking order.

So nope... they're NOT for sale.

DeBary, FL

don.t tell me about the real estate crisis here in florida.i am stuck here for who knows how much longer.maybe if i am lucky a cat 5 will take everything away and i can just start over somewhere else with the insurance money.it would probably take a cat 6 to level this place due to it's concrete construction

69Firebirdman, with the bubble bursting in FL two things have happened for sure. Either people loose their house or they are now stuck there for the long haul. For someone like myself, it is definately a buyer's market. I'll be down to visit you soon after we make the move. We'll take a drive down and visit you and you can see our bird in person!

It's now a buyers market in FL, that's for sure.

I gotta agree with Bjorn. When the boomers all start retiring and selling their homes up north, there will be far more sellers than buyers and the market prices will nose-dive. That's why I got an early jump

On the Firebird values: all I can say is it would take an incredibly unreasonable amount for me to sell.

John

What I don't understand is the high dollar amount wanted for the POS when a running car ain't that much more.

not just up north...the WHOLE country!

I`d not sell mine for what I have in it for sure ($25k)...but maybe in a few years...when old age sets in...lol

so far I`ve only owened 4 classics I`ve sold, never "made" any $ on any of them ,but didnt loose too much either....I would call that 'loss' , 1) eagerness to sell (to get another) or 2) having had lots of fun for that money (the loss), so it was worth it!

Yeah the Bird market is certainly strange. Although the entire classic car market is strange if you really watch it closely. Cars that you would think pull big money don't, the one's that shouldn't do. It's really weird to scroll through Ebay as well. You just don't know what's legit and what isn't. Just confuses me just as a "watcher" let alone trying to be a buyer or seller...

Not that I would sell my (RA428HO)? coupe but it would take over $50K to get me thinking about it.
The vert? Considering I've seen rusty, no engine, no int, no top frame, POS's sell for up to 5K on epay, I'd have to have a $25K offer just to consider selling it.
Will I get either offer? Doubful, but I'm not selling anyway.

Ebay seems to be the general public standard for setting prices, not sure why, if you get onto other internet sites you can general find them 15-25% cheaper.
So yeah, some people are selling cheaper than they should, but probably not for any more money than they could. If that makes any sense.

The RA428HO is a (I don't know what to call it yet, name) Think I'll start a thread for name that engine.

I like the fact that birds are cheaper than camaros.

More chances to buy a cool car for a little less cash ..


If I wanted to have a car as an investment, I would restore a 'cuda or make one of those expensive 'clone' cars.

-I'd vacuum pack it and wait 5, 10 or 15 years -then sell

and in the meantime , no fun!

I put too much value on fun....as I think most of us on this site do...the car is for fun ,not really an investment...

one of my clients had a 67 Camaro convertible, he sold it to do the addition to his house I designed 3 yrs ago... this year I was there again to do a kit remodel...they miss that car..."wish we never sold it"..."should have taken a remodel loan"...

yeah,it looks like i am stuck here.i wanted to move to a rural area where i can expand my business but it looks like i am going to have to maintain the status quo for a long time now.i wanted to expand my business but i have to play the waiting game.

if you beleive the Global warming experts (and who doesnt,,LOL)
hurricanes are going to be sooo bad this year, you may be bought out soon by FEMA...

How the hell did this get to housing and stocks?

Probably about the same time cars got to be as expensive as houses used to be, and NOW you can spend the price of a car to get a television.
Just to be a part of the crowd, my 'bird is not for sale at any price either.