Ran into this problem I'd kinda forgot about. I've always had this issue, 3 different engine and tranny combo's over the years.
New motor mounts now.
What I'd done years ago was weld an extension onto the Z bar, I'd like to just fix it now.
I have 2 Z bars and 2 pivot balls, they're all the same. Is there a longer Z or longer block ball?
Any ideas here?

How much thread is there on the other end of the z bar, you might be able to shim the bar over towards the ball and still get a nut on the threads? I looked at mine and there is about a half inch of the ball shaft showing although I do not have any shims on the other end...

simple solution,put an automatic in there.and you can make a small fortune selling that stick shift set up

Not an option Terry. And jeez man, it wouldn't be original then.
Can't believe you'd suggest such a thing.

But I would really like to figure this one out, it stumped me 25 years ago and I just forgot about it until now.
I could space the block ball out, but it doesn't have that much extra thread. The frame ball is sitting about right, the unthreaded flats are in the bracket.
The YO catalog list a ball for the 6, not the 8. Ames says disc. PY list 8 cyl parts.

Jim could probably trace down if there is a difference between them.

It does show a different part number(ball assembly) for 6 and 8's.

One possibility is that you have a small block Chevy Z bar. I don't own a manual shift first gen Firebird or Camaro right now or I would measure the bar for you.... I do see that all the z bar is the same for 6 and 8 cylinder Firebirds.

Possible but, I have two more, both pulled from salvage Firebirds all the same length.

What shows different Jim, the Z bar or block pivot ball?

My car was originally an OHC 6, was changed over before I got it in '76. I have another original stick 6 in the Vert, I'll measure it tonight, pretty sure it's the same Z bar I have 2 more of.

Anyone here have an original V8 stick they can measure a Z bar length? Check how deep it goes over the block ball?

The ball is the same for 67-69 V8(of course). And then they have 67-73 6 cylinder with a different part number. Sounds like with you having that original 6 cylinder car to measure you will have your answer tonight.
I've had a few v8 manual cars and I remember the ball totally inside the bar.

Maybe, but I bought another pivot ball last week, suppisdly for a V8, I measured it this morning, it was the same as I have in the V8 block now.

Another possibility is that you have 2nd gen z bars. Since your 6 car is original and it seems that the bars are all the same for all 1st gen Firebirds then you are just a few hours and a tape measure from your answer.

Did some looking and your ball stud is too short.
LINK: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CLUTCH-LI...sspagenameZWD1V

That's what my wifes says.

I had Ames pull one off the shelf, it measures 1 3/4" from block to outside the ball. That's what I have.
Wonder what others are out there?

Just went out and looked at mine. The "tube" just barely covers the ball itself. I thought the ball went much further into the tube/bar...

Look at that link I posted and you can actually see the difference..... You need the one in the link.

Here's another. You can see it's longer. The part number says it's correct for 67 all.
LINK: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/67-69-81-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Mine is also 1-3/4" in legnth. Man, that just doesn't sound good. LOL I tried to measure the bar length but it's too hard to get at. I wonder if the bar legnths vary? Seems that would be more likely than ball legnth...

Ames measured the Z bar tube they had in stock, 9"
I'll check it tonight.

I can't believe you guys can't compare the two(three) pictures of the ball studs and see the difference? You can't believe your eyes or what? LOL There's quite a bit of difference. See Gordon's pic at the top and see that the ball stud he has doesn't resembly the correct on it the eBay auction links. I'll do a side by side to help you see it. Just a sec....

OK I can't see a shoulder on Gordon's.

Gordon's


NOS

Jim, that second looks exactly like both of mine, the first is a tough call on the picture.

So you just can't see the shoulder because of the picture angle?(on the installed one)

Yep, the shoulder sits in a little machined pocket on the block.

I'm stumped unless the Z bar is different, and I seriously doubt that.
Another guy suggested maybe my frame was tweaked at some point. Not since I've owned it but who knows?
I could always make another frame mount with more offset, or just put my extended Z bar back on.

Maybe that pocket was a block repair???

I've had the same problem with 3 different engines installed.

A year or so back I asked how much the Firebird engine is offset, I think Vikki said 1" off center to the passenger side. Maybe mines off more than that?
Not sure how, but I'd like to know the cause even if I can't fix this problem.

The only way I can think of to help you now is another reference for stock engine location. I just measured mine. I have 1 1/4" clearance between the closest point on my stock valve cover to the vacuum booster. That should give you an idea of frame, engine and body relative locations.

Nothing is stock under mine. Aftermarket booster and valve covers. A knat's hair wouldn't fit between them.

Trying to look at this picture and find a good spot for you. I was thinking maybe the PS frame to something. Waterpump, timing cover?

Appreciate all the effort here though.

# for eng side is 9786072.
# for frm side is 3935289.

3866568 is for A bodies, 1st gen 6 cyl FB's, and 2nd gen v8 FB's.

Do you have the nylon seats in the countershaft?
Will look for my original 67 cntrsfht and studs tonight and get measurements.

1" sounds right.

Yep, got the nylon seats in, at least on the frame side. I assume it gets one on the engine side, 3 came with a package. But until I get the depth right I saw no need to install it yet.

Thanks.

Just wantef to make sure.
Cant tell by the pic.

Been trying to get you a reference distance between a point on the engine and the subframe. What I came up with is a measurement of 4 5/8 " between the edge of the head and the weld/edge of the subframe extension. Hopefully this picture will make it clear where the measurement was taken;

yes, its about 1 - 1.5 " offset to the pas side

Can someone find the exploded assembly of this?

Thanks
I was hoping it would show me the "missing mink" so to speak.
I did see I have the wrong Z to fork link though, been running the 6 one for years.

This might be a record, 4 pages in one day in the Tech section.

I think I got it. Best I can figure is something you don't run into often. Progressive tolerances.
The engine measures about the same, maybe an 1/8" over Jims but I do have new urethane mounts. All the parts measure correct. Z=9" Stud= 1 3/4"
I pulled the bracket off the frame and put a straight edge on it, it had a slight crown and some high spots, the bracket had a slight crown as well so I pulled another bracket off the race car, it was better but I still put it in the vice and made it flat and straight, I then took a BAH and knocked in the high spots on the frame, mainly where the threads were pulled outward creating the high spots, probably from impact wrench assembly way back when.
I drilled out some .120 shims, one behind the block stud and one between the bracket and Z-bar stud. Got it all back. Still not sure where that much distance came from but it should be fine now.
I have to take it apart to paint but I think it'll be fine.

That reminds me of the 'slash and burn' engine pulls I did in my earlier years. When you do a quick and ugly pull you sometimes miss things. Like unbolting the end of the z bar..... You don't have to unbolt it. You can use brute force to pop the engine out. I bet a previous owner did this. Either that or a wreck. One way or the other it's great you figured it out. Not often you can use a hammer instead of $$$ to fix something right! And something just dawned on me, we just proved both of our cars are in 'spec'. Less than an 1/8 inch difference between engine location on our two cars....

Good job

Here is my pivot ball. Removed my motor Monday for refreshening.

the z-bar can be different as well!! i have an ohc6 car and a 400 was in the car when i got it. different z-bars between the 2. another solution would have been to shim the pivot ball with a washer behind the ball to block mounting surface. it looks like it should be out a bit more but its better than what it was!!!

Book says; 0.852 Countershaft 67-69 All Firebirds with manual trans #3899013

had the same problem, . solved it, the z bars are different with the 6 to an 8. the same goes with the adjusting rod.


68 400 h.o 4 spd to go!