I am trying to take out the phillips head screws that fasten the side radiator baffles to the fenders. What a stupid place to put that type of fastener. I don't see that these baffles are repo. so I need to save them. The screws are rusted solid in place. Any tricks out there to get them out?

Thanks
Eldon

I heard a lot of people swear by PB Blaster so I got some. It works pretty well, but then my car was from California so I don't have the nasty rust problems others may have.

If that does not work, you may have to drill out the screw heads. I had to do that to one of the screws your talking about

I guess if I drill them out I can retap them or just put a new bolt on the baffle after grinding them off.
I have two front clips and both have all four screws rusted solid.
I have used the PB Blaster on them but you just can't get any grip on the screw to break it loose.

Here is what I did..

PB blaster is what I used. Soaked for a few days.

I got the biggest phillips I had that properly fit the head. I then found a 1/2 inch drive socket that fit on top of the screwdriver. I then hooked up a 1/2" drive ratchet to the socket and screwdriver and took out the bolt/screw.

Heat up the surrounding metal..NO heat to bolt/screw if above does not work first.

first of all ,they arent Philips screws, thats probably also why your philips head screw driver doesnt work well...they are Posidrivs (if they are original)...but PB blaster them ,let sit for awhile... and 2) dont destroy them, they are very hard to find!
3) the reason they are there is to not damage the paint on the hood...put in a square head bolt there and you`ll see!

also, YES save , take care of those gusset plates ,not reproed either! Hard to find!

These are original on both cars. I have not heard of "Posidrivs"
I will check into that. I have soaked them for a day now and will soak them again. Thanks for the help from everybody. I will let you know how it goes. If it goes well I will have an extra set of those gusset plate if someone needs some.

Thanks
Eldon
Texas

A #4 Pozidrive from SnapOn Tools works better than a Phillips.

read up some on Posidrivs....
http://justbrits.com/pozi/pozidriv.html

Can You tell I used to own a British car? lol

Stuck bolts...

-PB Blaster...as mentioned
-hand held impact wrench (the kind you hammer and it reverses)
-torch (hand held propane)
-drill
-dremel tool with small grinding disc

While some are saying to try and save the bolt/screw...sorry, but if its badly rusted and pitted or a stripped head, do whatever you can to get it out and replace it with something new. Because odds are you'll be taking it back off again sometime in the near future and you'll be back down this same alley again...

As WiscBird say ,if they are damaged or you damage them , you CAN replace them with Philps Screws...for the head issue! just hard to find the right size...
John M. in Boston had some and was giving away ,but he`s all out!

Ames sells replacements that are Phillips head I believe. Part Number FB703K

What do you mean, The kind you hammer". I have a impact wrench.
Do you mean you hit it with a hammer?

I am looking for a Snapon guy (or girl) to get one of the sockets I need.

I will continue to soak it down until then.
Let you know how it goes and how far down Wiscbird's list I had to go.
Thanks
Eldon

If it gets totally stripped and you have welding skills you can weld a hex nut to the head and turn it out with a wrench.

Impact Driver-cheap-very effective

Rick,
Are you talking about an air impact wrench, like the kind used for lug nuts?
Eldon

No, it's a non-powered tool, similar to an oversized screw driver with exchangable heads.

As you strike the back of it with a hammer, the force of the blow pushes the driver into the screw or bolt and it ratchets either clockwise or counterclockwise.

The object is to push the driver into the screw/bolt to prevent it from slipping out and put some real torque on it at the same time.

Here are a few tips. PB blast let sit. Go raid the cleaning supplies for a little Ajax's cleaner, or any dry household cleaner that has grit in it. Use liquid medium of choise on end of screwdriver. I use spit. Apply cleaner to screwdriver tip and work into screw head. Try tightning the screw just a little, dont snap the head off, but try and get it to turn a little. If it moves reapply spit and cleaner and slowly work screw in and out. If all that fails heat, grind, destroy as nessecary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_driver

Thank you all for the help. I have located a impact driver, soaked the bolt for several days and have ordered a posidriver that will not be here until next week.
I think it will work with all of that.
I will let you know.
Thanks
Eldon

hopefully you havent destroyed the posidriv fittings/threads in them by now...

I have only destroyed one bolt so far. I have three left in the first front end and I have only sprayed PB Blaster on the other one.

Make sure you read the destructions,LOL seriously tho make sure you set the tool to turn the right direction when you hit it. You should find this cheap tool priceless for screws.

Update on the posi drive. I doubted the screws were pois drive because a #4 Phillips fits the hole perfectly. Before opening my piehole, I always try to do some homework even if I know I'm correct because we can get in trouble when we think.

I have asked around about the posi drive and have ran into a couple of people who are familiar with the fasteners. One person is the elevator mechanic who has been working on the elevators my building. He knew what a posi drive was and what they looked like.

Another person is a coworker who works at our UK location and happened to be in the US this week. It seems that a pois drive is a dominant fastener in the UK. He explained what one looks like, and sent me this link

http://www.wissen-elektrowerkzeuge.de/mdb/data/en/lexika/eopt/pozidriv_application_to.html

To make sure, I showed both people an origional screw and one of the replacments. They both instanlty said that these were simply #4 Phillips fasteners not posi drives. (Soemone eles who says that these aren't pois drives are #4 phillips head drivers.)

In a debate is the one who makes the postive statement is obligated to substanciate the claim. In other words, it has to be proven to be a posi drive fastener--something that has yet to have been done--not someone proving it isn't a posi drive fastener.

I have never seen a fastener that is even remotly close looking to the description of a posi drive. Since everyone is so gungho on the posi drive, why not post a picture of a #4 phillips head for comparison.

I've got a few coming from Ames. I'll post a picture of what they are selling when they get here.

I have 3 unmolested originals. (I can barely come to the board when logged on at home without getting booted offline. Try to write something or post a picture? Forget it! Wrote this off line with my word processor, boot, and copy paste. It doesn‘t help solve problems when I can take care of whatever board business at work).

One of them came out of my current car and removed with a #4 Phillips on a 3/8 th drive. The other 3 were trashed removing them. It wasn’t a case of improper tool; instead, it was a case of the tension exceeded my ability to twist a half-inch breaker bar. The easy way to remove them is to drill them out, using a bit just a tad larger than the thread diameter. The head will fall off; then, snatch the backside with vice grips. So easy it isn’t funny, and it ain’t worth the effort applied to break them loose.

The other 2 originals are not only unmolested, but they are also virgin bolts. They are on a fender I bought in 1979 (for an outrageous price of $15) when someone trashed the fender on my other bird. Had already hammer and mudded the fender before buying the replacement fender and never got around to installing the fender.

Half of the board, including myself, got replacement bolts from John. These bolts are so close to the original that one would be hard pressed to claim that they aren’t. The point is that the total of 11 bolts in my possession--ain’t mine, but I got my chit scrapers on an 8 too--are all #4 Phillips head blots. The 11 bolts in my hands would require you to hammer a posi drive into them.

I think the big problem is that the #4 Phillips screwdriver and/or socket drive--the tool you need to remove the bolts--are in short supply in a shade tree mechanic’s toolbox.

Nice documentary.

The end of the bits are slightly different. You would think it wouldn't matter, but as those pictures show it does. That's why these posi drive fasteners get so buggered up using a phillips bit. The posi drive are deeper into the slots.

I have evidence that shows otherwise, but I do not have the technology to get a better shot





The hardware shown is merely a an old, chewed up pos. It is more than obvious that something has been jammed into the fastener. I've played this game for a long time, and I have twisted wrenches for living just as long. It's pretty sad if someone cannot see that this fastener has been wallowed out, not machiened with the additonal slots. Then again, many people making comments have never even pulled out one of these fasteners let along done anything other than oil changes.

Sits deeper? It's a more shallow driving tool.


It's hard to see, but the one I posted is an exact fit; in fact, the drive will bite hard enough to hold the fastener. If a posi drive were insterted, it would fit just like the left fastner in the second set of photos

The point of the matter is that people are sent out to spend ten times the amount of replacment screws. The posi might give a better bite, but it will mangle the fastener if it's unmolested.

More important the the main reason for my comments: People are going to buy a tool that won't solve the problem. The problem is that the tension of the fastener exceeds the heads ability to hold up inder the required torque. It doesn't matter what type of tool you use when the drive on the fastener will fail befor the tension of the fastner will fail.

Eldon, seeing that it's a trend to follow googleers advice around here rather than that of which comes from real, not playing-a-game experaince. As a result, I doubt that you'll cancle your order. It's fine with me because it's your money.

Just make sure that you post the results after you get them out; also, post pictures of the fasteners because "they should still be quality parts after removing them; after all, you're spending $50 or whatever amount of money to remove a $5 set of screws.

In other words... Buy the tool that matches your fastener. And with the excellent pictures above, anyone can tell what they have. I still haven't received my new fasteners from Ames. But when I do, I'll post an 'up to date' picture of what is available as a replacement.

I heart PB Blaster... and metal chisels... and cut-off wheels... and leather gloves... and most of my left index finger.

I tried to take pictures with the old one in its natural color, but I couldn’t make it “jump” without a flash. The flash, however, washed out the replacement fastener bad enough so that it was a huge glare, making it impossible to do a side-by-side comparison. (The one on the left is the replacement; the one on the right is the original.) As a compromise, I wiped the old one with a silver paint pen, and took the shot without a flash. As you can see, minus the ever so slight distortion from removal, there is no question that the drive is identical on the new and original fasteners.





I wish to could fly at this speed at home!

Having worked at GM over the years I've seen many revisions with fasteners used on cars and parts. It may have been a brilliant idea for a job setter on a line to come up with using the posi drives. They could have used both phillips and posi drive bolts at different times during production. You don't see a lot of these type of bolts in that time period at GM. They were a special thing just to have clearance for the hood. We didn't have these in the bolt bins near the parts cribs. Not a standard fastener in the US auto industry.... These days there would have been a socket button head used.

Posidrive screws are often used in military and government electronics where damaging the screw head or liberating metal fragments from the screw head isn't acceptable. They are identified by four tick marks at a 45 degree offset to the head. Here's an example of a number six posidrive screw (magnified for visibility) from an old HP spectrum analyzer that I have.



The advantage of posidrive head and driver is that the rotational force does not "cam" the driver bit out of the fastener head like happens with a philips head. The screw head and the driver have a unique design to the flanks that makes the engagement of the driver and head positive This allows proper torque to be applied without any damage to the head and without liberating metal fragments. In military hardware, flight hardware etc. it can be inconvenient for random fragments broken off of screwdrivers or screw heads to become loose in the electronics.

Here's an article showing different fastener heads. I've never seen a posidrive screw that wasn't identified with the hatch marks, but I suppose it's possible.

Screwdrivers - what's the difference

These old screws are easy to remove if you don't need to save the fastener. As mentioned earlier, soak it with PB blaster. Heating the head with a torch and spraying it with PB will help it draw oil in. After that has soaked a few days, take a die grinder with an .040 cut-off wheel and slice a deep screwdriver slot in the fastener. Match the width of the slot to your falt screwdriver. Use a large square shank flat screwdrive with a wrench on the flat to apply torque. (That is why some screwdrivers have square shanks, btw) If someone had tried to remove this fastener with a #2 philips driver, you're unlikely to salvage the screw anyway. (Don't ask how I know)

I still don't have my posidrive bit to try. Hope it comes in this week so I can get this apart.

Eldon

Here's what Ames has for you. I have to say, because it's not all that common anymore, that Ames is the 'top notch' supplier in the parts industry. They go out of their way to help.

Eldon,

You'll do just as well if not bette with a #4 Phllips on a 3/8th drive, but you can follow whatever path; after all, what would I know? My only contribution around here is spending almost 2 decades as an automotive mechanic. And if you think condridicting advice from people who don't even do basic mechanical work on their vehicle--let alone full blown restos--go for it. The only vested intererst I have with this issue is letting people know that they shouldn't squander their money because they have been misinformed.

This isn't to have a posi drive share the platform; instead, it's to completly discredit the posi drive as a fastener used on the car. As for it being a non common fastner, it's was a super common fastner in its era. Half of the Chevy/GMc trucks--maybe others--had the beds assembled with them.


My best guess is the additional pois slots have been wallowed into the head. Sometimes it can be hard to tell.

Here's a good example of it being impossible to tell:




http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mvc010sfz7.jpg

On this port, some ports have casting markings, for instance, GM 12 would be a good cantidate for a casting mark. On other identical ports, some heads don't have the casting mark.

Did this head have a casting number? Many people have studied it carefully, and you cannot tell whether or not the port had a casting mark--you something like GM12. (The second picture relats more to did they wear off or removed because it's obious that the center ports aren't marked as they should be.) How would I know the answer--dayt bee like dat when I got them;)

Just like trying to determine what's up with the heads it's impossible to determine what's up with the internal area. The red flag is the way the posi driver fits the head compared to the Phillips.

Unlike the Phillips filling the slot at all 4 corners, the posi drive is wallows around in the hole, not filling it up on all 4 corners. The reason it doesn't fill it up on all 4 corners is that it isn't the correct drive for the fastener.

Perhaps overlooked on a casual glance, if one looks closely that the pictuers, it's obvious to anyone with strong mechanical aptidude.

Here is a photo of my Wiha # 1 posidrive screwdriver bit.



Notice the facets are squared off and not sloped and there are four additional tiny facets that relate to the four unique tick marks on a posidrive fastener that relate the screw and driver for posidrive fasteners. In other words, the edges that grip the screw are ground square and not sloped like a philips driver or screw. That is the improvement of the posidrive invention. The tightening or loosening effort doesn't push the posidrive driver out of the fastener.

I don't see any evidence of those four marks on Amervo's example fasteners and I don't recall any such markings on the four I removed.

If you use a square facet posidrive on a #4 philips with ramped facets the results won't be any better than using a number 2 philips on the screw, because the driver won't fit the fastener properly.

Otherwise use vice grips, grinder, fire wrench or weld a hex nut on the end. None of those approaches save the original fastener.

I am still waiting for my Posi driver bit. Mac guy didn't call.

It looks like it is still in good shape on mine just rusted in place.
Eldon

Drilled mine out and replced with button head allen screws (lots of Permatex Anti-Seize).