Stick to your own ideas. When I present a build idea it's either something I have done personally or something I've seen a close aquaintance do successfully.
Ah, so your opinions are the only "good" ones? You are a hobbyist, but you have elevated privileges? Or are you somehow more qualified than people who do this for a living, or do you have divine insight?
One thing is for certain, you have too much time on your hands.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
Stick to your own ideas. When I present a build idea it's either something I have done personally or something I've seen a close aquaintance do successfully.
Ah, so your opinions are the only "good" ones? You are a hobbyist, but you have elevated privileges? Or are you somehow more qualified than people who do this for a living, or do you have divine insight?
One thing is for certain, you have too much time on your hands.
My opinions are my opinions. Look back over the thread and show where I attacked anyone elses ideas. Right, I didn't.... I only back up my own ideas. I've been a machine repairman and an auto mechanic my whole life! This was my day job. I have diplomas from trade schools and colleges that show where I have strived to fine tune my skills. I have a lot of time to do whatever I want because I have earned it and retired....
The heads had .010 taken off a few years back, so now that's .020 total, plus the block now has .028 off one side and .024 taken off the other to even them, the pistons should all be .010 in the hole now. During mock up the engine was unbalanced left to right. I didn't go zero deck to give me some wiggle room in case I change pistons later. We cleaned the head intake sides up but they also needed it since so much was taken off the block and head face. I still may have intake and port match issues, I won't know until final mock up. I still have to re-cc the heads. I'd have gone aluminum if not for the cost. I'll have about $500 in these when I'm done. I still may go with KRE's in a year or so, but this is a race engine anyway.
Wanting a Custom fit in an off the rack world.
I don't have time for a job, I just need the money.
When the heads and block are milled you may find that you may need shorter pushrods for correct valvetrain geometry, and make sure you have an adjustable rocker set-up.
When the heads and block are milled you may find that you may need shorter pushrods for correct valvetrain geometry, and make sure you have an adjustable rocker set-up.
Excellent point! And to get to the important part, "Have you determined how much milled off the head surface gets you into this area of where the pushrods need to be shorter"?
ok, ok , dont get a heated discussion...just keep calm...
LOL Thanks Bjorn! How much did you have those heads milled again?
\ when I got my help from Quenton on "how to", he suggested the 5 C heads , because less "known' so they were easier to get for a lesser price on EBay...less bidders...these had been redone a few years earlier then not used ,so they sat some , got a little surface rust on them...got from NY for $150 , plus $90 shipping for the two...not sure what they were 'origuinally' cc wise ,but they were about 97,98 when we checked them...had them milled to 88, (Q suggessted 86-90, if I remember correctly).then we got new push rods ,and redrilled the pushrod holes to 5/8", added the 1.65 rockers (bought from Mad Dog), and it runs great...I have run 'regular' a few times with no detonation...
When the heads and block are milled you may find that you may need shorter pushrods for correct valvetrain geometry, and make sure you have an adjustable rocker set-up.
I'm getting a set of Scorpion 1.6 roller rockers. I enlarged the push rod holes already but yeah, I might need shorter push rods. These are #17 heads, ported, port matched and milled. I've got a lot of time in them but not much money, so far
Wanting a Custom fit in an off the rack world.
I don't have time for a job, I just need the money.
Fact: my first perf build on a Pontiac 400 in 1978 resulted in several open valves because of the decking and head milling. It might have been fine if I hadn't used RA IV lifters (only .040" travel) as well, but it was fine once I put in BBC rocker studs and poly-locks so I could adjust the rockers.
Opinions: don't use RA IV lifters without adjustable rockers. Don't mill the heads and/or block more than needed to true up the surfaces. Find a head that will get your compression ratio in the 8-9:1 range and you'll be able to run on any swill that comes out of a gas pump for years to come. Low compression engines don't necessarily produce low power or get bad gas mileage. If you get your compression too high you'll have to run premium gas or retard your timing, resulting in more fuel cost and maybe less power than a low compression engine. Get the best parts that your budget will allow. Make sure that all the parts make sense as a package.
Low compression engines don't necessarily produce low power or get bad gas mileage. Get the best parts that your budget will allow. Make sure that all the parts make sense as a package.
I have first hand experience with this part. I had a 428 that was only at about 8.5 to 1. Which is where milling would get you. I bought the Edelbrock performer package for it and it really screamed. Performance parts packages and large displacement can overcome most low(relatively) compression problems. Keep in mind that back when your 455 was produced the 4X heads were on it and they ran fairly good. So some small changes can only make it run better.
I just had my block decked .028 and both heads milled .010 and the intake sides .010, total bill was $250
Those are clean up cuts. We were referring to (and pricing) taking 70 thou. off the head deck and 35 thou. off the intake side AND zero decking the block. There is a difference here.
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
1967 Starlight black PMD Engineering 400 Auto 1968 Alpine Blue 400 4 speed 1968 Verdoro Green 400 HO 4 speed 2013 1LE 2SS/RS Inferno Orange Camaro.
I just had my block decked .028 and both heads milled .010 and the intake sides .010, total bill was $250
Those are clean up cuts. We were referring to (and pricing) taking 70 thou. off the head deck and 35 thou. off the intake side AND zero decking the block. There is a difference here.
To keep this in context. What I/We suggested was just a cut, .025 off the heads, and a zero deck on the block. Which Gordon has pointed out cost him $250. It could cost just slightly more than he quoted for the extra .015 off the heads. And you can see from his realistic figures that you can gain over .050 doing both. Which will get you in a good compression range for an Edelbrock peformance package. Just make sure you tell the Edelbrock rep exactly what you have to stay away from being 'overcammed' or other non compatibility problems.
To keep this in context. What I/We suggested was just a cut, .025 off the heads, and a zero deck on the block. Which Gordon has pointed out cost him $250.
To keep it in context? you blew that out of the water a few days ago with your fuzzy engine mechanic math which I still have not received a response from.
Secondly, show me exactly what post you said that? ".025 off the heads".
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
1967 Starlight black PMD Engineering 400 Auto 1968 Alpine Blue 400 4 speed 1968 Verdoro Green 400 HO 4 speed 2013 1LE 2SS/RS Inferno Orange Camaro.
To keep this in context. What I/We suggested was just a cut, .025 off the heads, and a zero deck on the block. Which Gordon has pointed out cost him $250.
To keep it in context? you blew that out of the water a few days ago with your fuzzy engine mechanic math which I still have not received a response from.
Secondly, show me exactly what post you said that? ".025 off the heads".
I just had my block decked .028 and both heads milled .010 and the intake sides .010, total bill was $250
Gordon did not have the block zero decked nor did he have 25 thou. taken off the deck. There is quite bit more work to do on a true zero deck block than a block as Gordons 10 thou in the hole.
NOT as you suggested.
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
1967 Starlight black PMD Engineering 400 Auto 1968 Alpine Blue 400 4 speed 1968 Verdoro Green 400 HO 4 speed 2013 1LE 2SS/RS Inferno Orange Camaro.
Then it works out to somewhere just above 100 cc's to burn the regular pump gas. You could have a machinist mill some off your 4x heads(@114cc) and you will be good to go... Or leave them be for a very mild build.
We charge $50 to clean up or true the deck..up to 10 thousandths. After 25 thousandths, you have to mill the corresponding intake surface for proper head to intake geometry. For laymans sake, he needs 70 thousandths removed. According to the rule, 5 thousandths is 1 cc. He is going to need 14 cc's removed. That is $350-400 a head ($750 total) for machine labor for both the intake and deck milling alone WITHOUT rebuilding these 4X heads (valve job, valves, springs, disassembly, guides, locks, retainers etc.) Add another $5-800 for rebuilding the heads. Milling 14 cc's off a head is a total waste of money. And if he was bringing them to me? I would not mill them and waste his cash.
You say he 'needs' .070 milled. I disagree. He could leave them be and still have good power for what he wants. Or he could get a small amount, say .020-.030 milled for a little more 'zip'. I really don't think they would charge all that much for that. And he says he has a good budget to work with....
Here's one. And there's one that specifically says .025. Just a sec....
If the 4X are usable as is with no work, use them. If they need any work, replace them. There is no shortage of good heads, and matching numbers does not matter, just the right specs.
Agreed. Have a shop check them for cracks, ect. And just for kicks, ask them what they would charge to mill them .o25. It will help the grin factor.
Here's the milling chart. Taking .070 would be redicules, taking .025 would be a help though. I took mine .020 total, .010 before, .010 this time. I should end up around 70 cc and 10:1 which is where I wanted to be. If he decked the 455 to zero, bored to .030 if it needs it and took .025 off the 114 cc 4X heads, he'd be around 8.9:1 with a .040 crush head gasket. Valve relief is app 2cc Not bad, but I'd still build the 400.
Here's the milling chart. Taking .070 would be redicules, taking .025 would be a help though. I took mine .020 total, .010 before, .010 this time. I should end up around 70 cc and 10:1 which is where I wanted to be. If he decked the 455 to zero, bored to .030 if it needs it and took .025 off the 114 cc 4X heads, he'd be around 8.9:1 with a .040 crush head gasket. Valve relief is app 2cc Not bad, but I'd still build the 400.
In Jim Hand's book, there is a section in the rear that shows several builder's suggested engine builds. I think its listed by expected 1/4 mile times. Why don't we(ya'll) put together a few "builds" that we can keep on file? I think this would be a good point of reference for those of us who don't do this stuff everyday and need the knowledge base of others...
...and it may save time(and excess verbage)later.
I'm a hobbyist. Not a professional. Don't be hatin'!
Us machinists (solely Pontiac) are not permitted to tell Jim he is wrong (not his opinion, rather his logic and math).
If there were no other head out there than the 4X 114 cc chambered heads, I would say go ahead and mill them and spend the money. In THIS case, there is a better, more logical solution which is the 6X-4's or the 96's.
Again, not an opinion, rather a fact. You present this to any REPUTABLE Pontiac engine builder and they will agree, that based on budget, cubic inch of motor and fuel requirements that the two head choices are the best solution to his build.
If you get a builder that wants to make "stupid money" off of someone to do nothing for something, that is the argumant that I have not made, yet is continuously argued.
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
1967 Starlight black PMD Engineering 400 Auto 1968 Alpine Blue 400 4 speed 1968 Verdoro Green 400 HO 4 speed 2013 1LE 2SS/RS Inferno Orange Camaro.
Us machinists (solely Pontiac) are not permitted to tell Jim he is wrong (not his opinion, rather his logic and math).
If there were no other head out there than the 4X 114 cc chambered heads, I would say go ahead and mill them and spend the money. In THIS case, there is a better, more logical solution which is the 6X-4's or the 96's.
Again, not an opinion, rather a fact. You present this to any REPUTABLE Pontiac engine builder and they will agree, that based on budget, cubic inch of motor and fuel requirements that the two head choices are the best solution to his build.
If you get a builder that wants to make "stupid money" off of someone to do nothing for something, that is the argumant that I have not made, yet is continuously argued.
I would agree in certain situations...but not this one. The customer, in this case, isn't asking for a lot of extra HP. He asks for a driver. And since the 455 came with the 4x then they were originally suitable for it. And then with some minor performance gains in the build it would be healthier than stock. In this specific case, I would not advise a head change unless there were problems with his original castings.
It's all a matter of interpretation and what the personal interpretation of "worth it" is.
I won't pay $500 for 10 hp. I might pay $1000 for 50 hp. That's my "worth it".
If the 4X heads will bolt on and go without work, and no performance increase is desired, and the primary consideration is that it will run on low grade fuel, that's fine. But putting good money machining parts with no performance prospect is of questionable value, when the same money could go into getting a more performance oriented part to start with.
If the 4X heads are junk I'll donate a set of 114cc cores. I have no use for them. Just pay the shipping.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
Yellowbird Quote; I won't pay $500 for 10 hp. I might pay $1000 for 50 hp. That's my "worth it".
You will not find advice to waste money anywhere in the thread. If you read the words that Gordon and I wrote you will see we recommend spending around $250-$300 for 50HP gain. Maybe more than 50HP.
First error is that you are making assumptions that all reported measurements are accurate.
I'd like to see you do the math right here, based on published information from any reputable published source you choose. Wallace Racing, Jim Hand, KRE, Butler...show me where you get 50+ hp out of $500 of shop work on those parts mentioned above.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
First error is that you are making assumptions that all reported measurements are accurate.
I'd like to see you do the math right here, based on published information from any reputable published source you choose. Wallace Racing, Jim Hand, KRE, Butler...show me where you get 50+ hp out of $500 of shop work on those parts mentioned above.
OK I smell a cut down in this. Who's the rat this time Vikki?
What, nothing to back up your "opinion"? With all your experience you should be able to calc that build up in no time at all.
Of course, I'm not excluding anyone else from calculating this build for the record. And numbers will vary because sources vary. But all should be very close.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
You will not find advice to waste money anywhere in the thread. If you read the words that Gordon and I wrote you will see we recommend spending around $250-$300 for 50HP gain. Maybe more than 50HP.
Where do you say that $300 will get you 50 HP? If that is the case, I would be making money hand over fist. THERE IS NO WAY $300 in machine shop labor will net ANYONE 50 hp.
Again, stick to a topic that you KNOW FOR FACT and quit throwing unsubstantiated, incorrect junk and confusing people.
Originally Posted By Fbody69
Ok I'll play along. How much HP 'do you think' we will gain with lowering the combustion chamber by 10.5 cc's?
OK, where do you get the baseline to lower the compression? From What compression? What cubic inch motor? Heads? Solid or roller cam? duration? All of this has everything to do with your question.
Or was it that you WANTED to say "raise the compression"?
Why do you get off feeding people complete hearsay Jim? Do you get enjoyment misinforming people? Your "backyard machinist theories" have no validity or merit. Again, I challenge you to ask any reputable builder most of what you say holds water.
I agree with 1 or 2 things based on solid fact, but nothing other than that and certainly not your "opinion".
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
1967 Starlight black PMD Engineering 400 Auto 1968 Alpine Blue 400 4 speed 1968 Verdoro Green 400 HO 4 speed 2013 1LE 2SS/RS Inferno Orange Camaro.
ok, I`ll play along...a stick on sun roof, a turbo sounding extension to muffler , 2 or 3 NOS stickers...2 R stickers...a "racing" decal on top of windshield,... its got to be at least 75 hp.....
