I've noticed a 'difference' in terms used on the board from what I'm used to. I've noticed that a few noted engine builders on the board refering to machinists building engines...
I've been working in the auto industry for a long time. I've worked in 9 GM plants. One thing about GM is they have definite 'lines of demarcation' between the trades. There are machinists(tool makers), machine repairmen(mechanics), welders(welders), electricians(electricians), pipefitters(plumbing assembly and repair), tinsmiths(sheetmetal fabricating). These are the main groups of 'tradesmen'. The machinists(toolmakers) just machine. Once in a while they partially assembly things. The machine repairmen, they do all the real assembly. They also go through training to be able to run all the machine tools. They have basic machine tools in their department(mills, lathes, grinders, ect.) This is so they can do any final machining before assembly or machine parts themselves to fix machines. I'm a journeyman machine repairman by trade. So I know the 'lines of demarcation' very well. You wouldn't ever see a machinist do any assembly at all in the plants. If you did see a machinist doing assembly then you would call the union committeeman and he would put a stop to it...
This is where some of the posts on the board are 'going against the grain' of what I've been taught. All I can think is that in the world of small shops and non-union people, the machinists are assemblers too? I see posts saying "Good machinists assembly engines this way". I'm thinking that a good machinist just machines. A good repairman(mechanic) is the one that should be assembling. After all, there are a world of difference in skills used in these two trades... I think that this posting could be an enlightenment for some who haven't worked in the industry and think that the machinists are the ones doing all the assembly. Comments please...

I'm a plastic surgeon by trade, and if I see a nurse doing a boob-job, hell, I'ld call somebody to!

the one machinist I know 'piddles' with (restores) Studebakers as a hobby , but does not build engines

I want to make sure that any reader knows that I'm not calling into question anyone's credentials. What I have been reading on a few threads is 'leading' readers to believe that 'machinists' are the 'assemblers'. It's not always the case. And in some shops, it's never the case.

I machine AND build complete motors. I am a machinist and an engine builder. I run every machine in the shop, so I am a machinist.

Since we are in an AUTO forum, I would conclude, without calling anyone ignorant, that "they" know what a machinist is, referring again to the topic at hand.

For future reference MOST engine builders also machine their own engines and outsource very little (balancing, crank grinding)

Same with respect to the local shop I do business with. The owner builds and races IHRA cars, but just because he is a driver and a mechanic does not mean he is also not a machinist with an incredibly well equipped fabrication shop, and an engine balancer without par, and assembler as well.

Some people are more versatile and do not fit into a single niche in life. The crank grinding work falls under "machinist", last time I checked.

If you're not limited to a union-defined role, you can go a lot farther if you have the inclination and work ethic.

Let me rephrase that..most good, reputable and successful engine builders do all their machine work in house. There are some that do not machine, but have a very close relationship with one, maybe two machinists.

Agreed, a reputable builder won't shop for the cheapest rates of the day.

I ran/run every machine in GM Central Tool Room. From the most lowly lathe to the most automated CNC milling machine. I don't consider myself a machinist. Although I have all the credentials a machinist would have. And more than some that call themselves machinists. A good mechanic or engine builder would have machining knowledge but let a machinist do the tedious/intricate work. That's the way it works in the big shops...

Yep, that's the difference between Union labor and non Union labor. Contract labor has clearly defined job categories. Unions are here to preserve and protect jobs.

With the Teamsters contract, there's a clause in artical 22.3 I'm under, "work as directed". Some management try to get away with putting us in a job that's not ours per definition of our bid job. That's when we contact the Union steward to resolve the issue. If it's not, that's when a grievance is filed.

Then it goes to a local hearing. If it can't be resolved at the local, then it goes to the State. If not State, then it goes to the National. Most all grievance are settled at the local and State.

Union labor has it's pros'n'cons. I'm glad it's here, but hate payin' my dues.

My friend Rolf , a Volvo engineer by trade since early 60`s, also a former dirt racer here...builds engines, but never does the machine work ,he sends them out....most "small " places I dealt with in Houston sends their stuff out...maybe its different up north vs south? only the big rebuilders here have in house machine shops

Common sense isn't lost as you go north! Most places understand that machines like horizontal boring machines are expensive and operators are highly skilled. In the big shops(union or non-union) that have these machines, they only have a couple operators that run them. And these highly prized operators do not build engines. They machine.

Any work I send out, from basic machining to full assembly and balancing, is done and certified by one person, start to finish. Boring, honing with torque plates, milling, porting, head rebuilds, CNC milling...

And that one person is more qualified that a shop full of hourly specialists to understand the implications of a tolerance here, a variance there. Assembly line can only go by a checklist of tolerances, and all that can add up one way or another to be other than the intended result.

Nice thing is that the shop rate is only 10% more than the work done on worn out, uncalibrated equipment used by the local auto parts store.

Now that is definitely a matter of opinion and easily disputed. My highly specialized people will easily out perform your 'Jack of all trades'. For example, a man running a boring machine all day will be better equiped than one that visits one once a month. And I really doubt that a small time guy with his own machine tools will have the level of equipment that a shop that does a multi million dollar a year business. You can say what you like but the better machines and dedicated employees will win hands down. Of course you will need a 'builder' that has the plan. He knows which 'machinists' are best for each portion of the job.

i am a "machinist" by trade and a card carring IAM. but at the place i work the railroad we do little machining anymore, the wheel machine is about it, back in the day our shop use to tear the locomotives down to the frame rails and rebuild them, now we scab everything out that needs rebuilt.

and our managements favorite term is "awabf"= all work assigned by foreman.

i think we are more mechanic then machinist by far. altho some times i have to make a part here and there for some locomotives cuase they dont make them anymore.

Jim are you guys in the IAM also? of course we are without a contract right now, all the other labor groups caved in and took what the carriers gave them except us.

My builder HAS the equipment. And the knowledge. And the experience. And the careful attention to equipment, and pride in a job done right. As does Banshee's shop. Don't knock what you don't know.

An automotive or engine machine shop is different than what is traditionally called a machine shop. Most of the operations involve grinding or honing processes rather than cutting tools because of the final precision and surface finish required.

A machinist is not necessarily an engine builder, and an engine builder isn't necessarily a machinist. I know many machinists that I wouldn't let near an engine, and engine builders that I wouldn't let near moving machinery.



I also know quite a few people that do a very good job of both. The key is knowing what the final product should be and how to get it. An engine builder's job is to make sure the engine parts are machined properly whether they do it or someone else does it.

I buy equipment for my shop as I can afford it so that I can do the job my way, to my standards, and on my schedule. Meanwhile I farm out work to people that I know can do the work the way I want it. They aren't usually the fastest either!

I was talking in general terms.... If you have seen a real machine shop then you would agree about the differences.

UAW

I know every backyard shop has one of these, right? http://www.fadal.com/products/vertical-machining-centers/vmc-4020-fx.html

That's the nice thing with dealing with an established business, he is not taking work to pay off equipment, he buys equipment, pays cash, because it improves his workflow.

As half of my work comes from the auto industry, I work in the shops. I've worked for many of the Tier 2 and Tier 3 supplier shops in the area. I even service some of the EDM machines when necessary, and network the CNC mills and benders and config the CMMs.

Nah, I've never seen a "real" shop...

I had the opportunity to acquire essentially a complete crank grinding shop with established customers and room for growth - but that's all I would have had time for for the next ten years while paying it off.

I've been told the best way to buy good shop equipment is third hand...wood shop or otherwise, all the same.

First owner buys it a piece at a time, uses it, pays for it, retires and sells the shop.
Second owner buys, all at once, loses his family, house, cars trying to pay for it all and sells the shop contents 10 cents on the dollar.
Third owner (usually an auction house, but you can beat them to it...or here in Michigan it's a buyer's market) gets a good price, just have to make sure it's good equipment.

Is someone bored or is someone pissed that they spent $$$$ on machine work and a rebuild?

I do not get the jist of this BS.

I've had the job of repairing machine shop equipment for about a year. There's plenty of maintainance on these old machines. You could easily buy machines that wouldn't perform at an acceptable level. Repairs are tedious and expensive. I have found that the older machines much more rigid. And the slightly newer machines more convenient to run. The cream of the crop would be older high tech equipment. I had the opportunity to run Cincinnati Milicron CNC mills and lathes. Just program, set up tooling and watch them work. They switch tooling automatically. Sweat machines! We had three of each at GM CTR. They were always busy. I did get to design my own part and make a small production run on it. The part I designed was a cartridge you can put in your rifle to use it as a muzzle loader. With the cartridge you could legally use your regular rifle during muzzle loader season. I couldn't bring any of my engine parts in at all. Would have been fired for that. I did make a few parts out of stainless as novelty items. Made a nice set of punches that I heat treated myself. There are about 100 machinists machining at all times. Any assembly was done by machine repairmen. These machinists didn't get into that form of work. They are highly prized at what they do and wouldn't be caught wrenching. I doubt they even worked on their own cars.

That's right on the money, Vikki! I'm trying to be the third owner, not the second!

It was a very large engine rebuilding facility with about a hundred specialized machinists. They were getting out of the $1495 SBC rebuild market and decided to concentrate on the truck and industrial market instead by selling their "small crank" shop. Lots of oil field work here right now.

I couldn't compete with them for cheap engine rebuilds, and they couldn't match the output of my "personalized" engines. Two different markets, two different engine shops.

Tom, I think Jim is touting the virtues of a person that runs a dedicated machine all day to maximize efficiency and minimize cost. I feel that definitely has a place in the work force, as do more generalized workers. So far some of my job descriptions have been machinist (both traditional and automotive), fabricator, engine builder, mechanic, draftsman, project and team manager, shop foreman, and janitor (still am at my shop!). All have prepared me for what I always wanted to do and now do, build hot rods, customs, race cars and engines - in my shop. I'll gladly say that I'm a jack of all (automotive) trades and master of none, because that's what I want to do. I'm getting close to 50 years old and I have a lot left to learn, so I can't sit behind a machine all day and expect to get closer to my goal. But that's me.

The trades are a learning tool. Once you are in a trade you understand how much more talented a professional is than a layman. You see a line in the sand. That line usually lies around 7 years of constant working(at least 40 hours a week) at the same job. People who have many jobs or 'hobbies' do not ever get to the line. They can do the job but not at the performance level of the pro. You see this in all the trades. A machinist is one of the trades that it shows up the most. That's why that just being able to run every machine in a shop doesn't make you a machinist. After you serve as an apprentice for about 4 years and put 4 more under your belt then you will/can be a decent machinist. Same with all the skilled trades....

I challenged my journeyman ticket for auto service technician and was going to do the same for machinist for which I have a lot more hours (production line as well as short runs) but my path led elsewhere. Still regret not getting it and a few more things along the way but that's life.

Most of my jobs have been steps along the way, not an end of the journey. It all started out as a way to get into racing! I sometimes regret not doing the "sensible" thing, getting a job that pays well and has good benefits (like a retirement plan!) and staying there for twenty or thirty years - but not often. I had several opportunities for that over the years but I choose my way for my reasons. I've been apprenticing for 25 years so far! No ticket or union protection for what I'm doing. No one tradesperson could do what I do without the experience I have.

It's good to have a card... Then when stooges challenge what you know they can eat their words. One thing about getting your card through GM, it's not just a compilation of proven hours on a trade, you have to go to college and learn the background sciences. I had to go to night schools for a couple years to fully qualify for my card. Even though I already had an associates degree in applied science, they made me retake the courses as an update. Although having a card doesn't stop people from 'calling you out' as not knowing a thing. It does throw weight with people who actually know what it takes to get one.

Having credentials is sometimes key to getting a job. I don't like that and feel that the proof should be in the work. That's the main regret for not getting things along the way.

I've also had people fall back on their credentials as a defense rather than address the issue. I don't agree with doing that, I feel if someone knows what they're talking about they should be able to prove it. I've had quite a few discussions with engineers for example that abruptly stopped because they assumed that because I didn't go past first year I didn't know anything. I'm sure that if I had P.Eng. behind my name things would have been different even if the facts weren't. Sometimes an equation in a textbook doesn't apply to a specific application even though it does to a more general one, especially if the "accepted" explanation isn't quite right.

Maybe I should move to Missouri!

You don't like credentials for proof? LOL That reminds me of those comercials where a good night sleep makes you a heart surgeon. I'll take credentials any day. I would want to know where they got their credentials. Once I see that they are good credentials I feel that the people with credentials are better to trust than someone who has a 'good line of BS'. The good line of BS will only take you so far until someone with credentials figures out you are full of BS.

i hope my doctor slept at a holiday inn express last night

I don't accept credentials in place of facts. "Because I say so" doesn't cut any ice. I find that people who rely on credentials to prove a point are the ones who don't have anything else. Like I said, the proof should be in the work or in the facts, not the back pocket.

If you have the proper training and abilities, why would you not have the right answer? If you don't but still protest that you're qualified to render an opinion and not be questioned, maybe the qualification process needs to be examined.

But I'm glad to hear you say that, Jim, because I am a certified Automotive Service Technician (journeyman) so I'll expect you to accept whatever I say about cars since you're not.

In your own words: "The good line of BS will only take you so far until someone with credentials figures out you are full of BS."

Like I said, the people that understand what it takes to get the credentials will give them the appropriate respect. Those who think that they are wallpaper will always be skeptics. Although some credentials are just wallpaper, others are 'hard earned' and deserve consideration. Even someone with credentials will undoubtably have 'wrong answers' a small amount of the time. But they will always have the background, education and skills to get it right.

so when people ask an architectural question , I should be able to answer...
got credentials...registration in Texas 1972 and Sweden 1968...degree in constr. engineering in Sweden 1968...practiced architecture since 1969 (with a hiatus in the Car bus. 83-90), but STILL my wife always knows more about architecture than I do!

My point is that credentials are nice but don't guarantee being right. Not having credentials doesn't automatically prove someone wrong either. It's not black and white in either direction. To change your wording slightly, they should have the background, education and skills to get it right.

I listen to whomever sounds like they know what they're talking about and can explain why when asked. I will even accept good information from crazy people!

I was going to say the same..though I haven't had much done myself at our local "machining shop", I've worked on projects with a few friends at that shop that went through the whole process, from "basics" to "ready to crank" using the same team of folks and one team lead/inspector. Seems to go well using that process, since if there are any issues the team figures it out very quickly.

Not to imply that they are all hanging out together through the whole process, but they are all within Shouting distance of eachother!

I have just under 10 years in my trade and still learn new things all the time. I guess just like any trade there are new innovations, changing regulations, and equipment that needs to be learned. My company has sent me to 6 semesters of college and numerous technical classes over the years and I have taken many state and national tests. We are broken up into separate departments, each specialized for different jobs. So, for example, it makes sense to me to choose a specialist over a general practice doctor if I wanted to be "fixed" properly. There are some that are inherently good at a broad range of things, but I would prefer someone that knew everything about that one thing instead of someone that knows something about everything. I think it takes a combination of credentials and OJT to make someone good at what they do, a balance of ying and yang.

I have over 20 years in my trade and it is constantly evolving. If I want to be employed, I cannot afford to be a specialist. Thousands of "specialists", also known as "one trick wonders", graduate every year and enter the job market at a fraction of my rates. And they do get work. But businesses get tired of calling in six different people, each billing an hour's time, to get the same results they do by calling me and in less time and for less total cost and with less hassle. Another point is the finger-pointing when someone goes wrong; whether it's the "software guy" saying it's a hardware problem or the "hardware guy" saying it's a software problem, neither are resolving the problem. I analyze it and fix it, I don't care whose problem it once was, it's mine to fix.

Having general knowledge allows you to look at the bigger picture, how things are supposed to be and what to do if they are not that way. There are times when a generalist will call in a specialist for a particular facet of an assignment, but it is rare that a specialist can handle a whole major project alone.

Think in construction terms. A general contractor is usually also a skilled builder, even if no longer actively swinging a hammer. And a general contractor will know how the trades interact, the proper sequence of steps, and how to get the job from start to finish with good results.

ok great,now lets stop fighting and move on.we all have our own opinions based on their own personel experience and we all need to do what works for them."there are many different ways to skin a cat."