I think the market is in the toilet! I recently tried to sell my 69. It's not a high-end show car but a very nice head-turning driver with some nice factory options.

You may have seen it here. I started off at 18k (which was high, I admit) but I dropped it down to 13k fairly quickly. 2 auctions on e-bay and local exposure as well. It didn't even bring 5 figures! That's crazy when I see project cars getting 5k-6k.

So, I've decided to just hang onto it for now. But I'm curious about what others are seeing out there and your experiences...

Are you seeing the economy and election having an affect? I just took a look at the Google site Vikki found and it seems all the listings are quite high. Are people really getting those prices?

Thanks,

John

My friend just bought a 67 w/ 350. The car was completely redone from floor pans to engine rebuild. The ONLY thing this car needs desperately is a complete paint. It is red on red and the interior is all original and very very nice. He paid 12k for the car about 2 months ago and is now trying to sell it for 14k as he did finish a few things on the car. Again, it desperately needs a complete paint but so far no bites on the car...

Another way to look at it and I'd also be interested in getting opinions on this as well: what kind of FGF would you expect to get for 12k?

I basically think that now in order to get money for a car it has to be numbers matching and an original car (4spd a plus) to get a high price.... My buddy says on all the cars he owns "whats the value in it ?" Original, big block,4spd,color, amd milage those are what he uses to buy... oh and options... I think once a car has been modified, in order to get some money for it it has to hit the right person....Add on the Firebird factor, thats sometimes hurts... Don't get me wrong I love the Birds but at all the shows I go to the C's seem to get more respect....

If you read the paper, internet, local news, etc. ALL cars have dropped in price.

No one is buying cars, period. As many as 1/3 of all car dealerships will close between 2008-2009 combined.

So I think cars across the board are not selling, so it makes sense that fgf's aren't selling either.

Parts prices and activity on Epay have dropped considerably this year as well.

The easy answer is the car has to appeal to people with mega bucks. You have to attract the 'B'illionaire. The car needs to be 100% complete/finished and nearly perfect in every aspect. Perfect paint is a must. Numbers matching is a definite plus but not entirely necessary. A tastefully done, modified car will attract a sporty rich person. Maybe if the country votes in the right direction the 'regular guy' will have money to spend on extras in the future. Just my opinion and many others that I talk to.... Vote right and keep your car until the middle class is healthy again.

It's a buyer's market for anyone who has cash to buy. This is a great time to get a great deal on any car, new or old. Convertibles can be found for less than $10K again (low option driver), and nice low option Firebirds under $20K. This set pricing back 5 years, but prices should recover completely in 3 years or less. I am not bringing politics into it, as it wasn't politics that caused it. It was the easy credit dished out by just about every bank in the country. It's easy to pay more for something you want when it's not your money, and now that wages and lifestyles have taken a hit, there is a glut of cars on the market and not a lot of buyers.

If you built your Firebird for your own enjoyment, then the cash value is irrelevant. Hang on to it, prices will go back up. If you have to sell now, you'll take a hit. Even the export market is soft now. If you can afford to wait, market your car like houses are now marketed, use perfect staging, clean it up so it looks perfect.

I sold my surplus cars ahead of the dip.

Politics is the cause for just about everything from laws to taxes to wars.... It's what our economy is all about. To think that politics has nothing to do with the car market is like thinking one move ahead in a chess match. You do that and you lose.....

Favorite quote:
"Discussing Politics with someone is pointless, they're either agreeing with you or saying stupid stuff"

Collector car market is down, prices lower, but pretty much a correction IMO. Back where it should have been.
When businesses started making money of restorations that's when you knew prices were high. Before only individuals with talent stood a chance to make any money. That's where it's getting back to at the moment.

That's a great quote and it definitely applies to most conversations when you are trying to explain a different way of thinking.

The people who buy most of the cars that you see being sold here and on eBay are bought by people who have less money/income right now. People who make more than $250K a year have MORE money right now.... Yes, there are actually people out there that have made a ton of money in the last 8 years. And if they were the type to buy the 'average cars' then the market would be stronger than ever. So you see who is hurting and you also see who buys our cars when they go up for sale....

People who make more than $250K do not have more money right now. Not overall, anyhow. Prices on food and energy, the basics of life, have gone up. Interest rates on consumer credit (credit cards) has gone up. Of course someone who makes $250K has more money than the person who makes $80K, they always did, it's simple math. And depending on lifestyle, the portion of their income not going to housing, food, and utilities may be higher, and the standard of living higher. But a lot of people who make $250K and a desire for toys set their sights a bit higher than a Firebird, restored or not, when buying classic cars.

I do agree it is a correction, exaggerated a bit. I think prices are a little lower than they would be in a positive economic climate.

The bad thing about the correction is that the prices of restoration parts is still going up, so there may be fewer marginal cars saved as those who are restoring for sale won't be able to recoup their investment. That will help bolster the price for the remaining cars. The other bad thing is that insurance values will go down, we could potentially lose money if our cars are damaged or destroyed while the book value/market value is lower than the investment. Check your policy, I use an agreed value policy that allows me to adjust for market conditions if desired.

if the car has been modified,that will hurt the value alot.i have friends with the money and they cringe when they see a car that has been modified.if you modify your car you better plan on keeping it forever or giving it away when you go to sell.just my .o2

People who make more than $250K a year absolutely DO have more more since Bush passed the tax cuts for them.....

You say; But a lot of people who make $250K and a desire for toys set their sights a bit higher than a Firebird, restored or not, when buying classic cars.
This is dead on. So vote to take away their tax breaks. Let them keep their huge bank accounts, just take 3% of their income back the way it was in the 90's when our cars were increasing in value every year.

I`m agreeing with Vikki, it was not politics what did it...yes the people involved were also involved in politics , but politics itself didnt cause it...lots of greed did...

anyway , down here in Texas..it seems a little better than the rest of the country...I read in the paper today that from a poll Houstonians have a good feeling for the economy.....
as for cars I have not checked Firebirds lately ,but I have for the last 4-5 yrs checked Alfas and Triumph Tr6`s...and it doenst look to me that those two brands have gone down much if any....I was hoping they did...to get a second car (where I would keep it is a different story??), but they seem to stay up high...I have not noticed a drastic drop for those....for whatever thats worth..

but of course both those are not using as much gas...
and since I just brought that up...maybe the Firebird market dropped because of the $4/gal gas? maybe now its better or will get better?

I am not speaking for anybody else, but the price of gas verses my Firebird is pretty much irrelevent. I don't drive my 'bird much, and if gas was $10 a gallon, I would still drive it about the same amount that I do now. (600 miles a year +/-)

Now gas prices for my daily driver, thats a whole different story... (40k miles a year)

So with high gas prices, I try to curb my everyday driving, but I don't curb driving my 'bird much at all.

The fuel prices don't seem to impact the classic market much, since the majority only see a few thousand miles a year. Gas prices at 4.00 a gallon costs 16 cents more per mile than at 2.50 at 11 mpg. The enjoyment of that mile is worth it at any price. I buy 110, which is even more expensive. I put more miles on my car this summer than I did since the first year I had it.

Sport Jaguar, Porsche, BMW and exotic prices don't fluctuate much either. And good fuel economy is not on their list of primary features.

This is totally correct and the exact reason that 'Trickle Down Economics' doesn't work. If you want your 1st gen Firebird value to go up you shouldn't vote for 'Trickle Down Economics' again. The only thing that trickle down works on is what goes down your plumbing...

I'll always disagree on an original restored being more valuable than a Modified as a blanket statement. There's a whole lot more to factor in. I'd say it's a case by case basis.

A restored base low option car will probably never bring more than a nicely done modified. And the build cost is about the same.
Add options and rarity and yes, the original restoration will or should always bring more, but even that has exceptions.

I'm with 69firebirdman, the more stock/original the more you can get for just about any car.

As for gas. Well, since moving to FL a year ago we have put 10k miles on our bird!!!! More than the 8 years we have owned the car! We actually drive the bird as our daily driver as our other daily driver is an 07 Dodge Ram 1500 w/ Hemi that only gets 12mpg. So that being said, if I am going to get crap milage, I'd rather drive the bird. Once I can no longer drive we will save money on gas.

#1 Not nicely done.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-Manu...1QQcmdZViewItem

#2 Nicely done.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4-Speed-1...1QQcmdZViewItem

Huge difference in both Modifieds. But if #2 were a factory 400 4 speed car, it should probably be worth a little more without the modified parts. If number #1 were done as well as #2 it would be worth more than a base 350 vert restored, and probably a bigger customer base. As #1 is now though, it would be worth more original.

I appreciate the replies all...

It definitely seems to be a buyers market out there. I certainly don't have to sell so I'll just hang onto it.

Vikki, you make a very good point:

"The bad thing about the correction is that the prices of restoration parts is still going up, so there may be fewer marginal cars saved as those who are restoring for sale won't be able to recoup their investment. That will help bolster the price for the remaining cars."

I don't think we'll see prices for parts going down anytime soon.

I didn't count on a political angle when I started the thread. However, since it was brought up, all I'll say is if you think the "Bush tax cuts" only benefited the rich, watch your pay check get a LOT smaller when they expire in 2010. A person making $75,000 will see their taxes go up about 3k. Ouch.

I wouldn't really rate either one of those as "modified" as it's all easily reversible. The panel alignment on the second car is excellent. Overall it's a super car. It's worth watching to see what it fetches.

The second one has been re-listed a couple of times on Ebay with no takers.

That first auction will be interesting. 10k for a manual vert? That's pretty low in my estimation.

Vikki, not sure what you would call modified then as in almost everything can be replaced easily except sheetmetal.

On #2 I'd ditch the cragers for II's, maybe the headers for LB's and the exhaust tips and paint the intake or get an oem. The subframe connectors are iffy, depends on how you'd drive it. Rough gear banging or cruiser.

#1 I just love those pedals and console, gotta get some of those the shifter hole is way off, must have used a GTO shifter. Might have been an auto to man swap.
It's not real real bad but if I was trying to maximize money I'd clean that sucker up, and I don't mean washing.

That's true about nearly everything being easily replaceable. If I was shopping for a concours car I wouldn't be looking at either one of these. But if I was looking for a show and cruise car that looked stock, the second one would definitely appeal to me. Other than the Cragars (not my preference) I'd pretty much just drive it and enjoy it.

To me, modified is pretty much a wildly custom brand new paint job that affects the price, a drivetrain transplant from another make, cut or custom dash and panels, tubs and roll cages, hood scoops and side flares and scoops, altered grilles and tail panels...things that visibly make the car much different than original.

This is simply not true. It's one of the "untruths" that have been passed around as scare tactics. Your taxes will go down if you earn less than $250K IF the republicans get voted OUT.

Ah yeah, now you're talking about the latest fad, "Pro-touring"

Gotta admit I think those guys are making huge mistakes with some of the mods they do. Some look really good now but won't hold up to the test of time.
But as long as they sell while the fad is still hot I guess they'll do ok. The ones that really loose are poorly done cars or those that hang on to it to long. Kind of like the steam roller tire Pro Street fad. It's still around but a much smaller market.

Yep, that or the George Barris cars. If it wasn't for the name, most of those cars would be laughed at today.

How many 'birds and 'maros have been listed on eBay with huge fiberglass flares and didn't catch a bid? Or those stupid looking (IMO) scoop add ons...like one '69 I saw with both '69 T/A fiberglass fender scoops plus second gen fender scoops cut in...

Uh, yeah. I'm trying to "scare" people. Ooooh! LOL

You didn't get a significant tax cut when those got passed? Of course you did. Everybody did. If not, then you're not paying much in the way of taxes in the first place.

Are you saying Obama and the dems will keep those tax cuts?

Obama has to somehow pay for all the new government he is going to create...

Same way W paid for all the BS he did. Seen our debt lately?

I, for one, do not want "government" looking after me. I'd much prefer to earn what I can, keep what I earn, watch after my own retirement, spend as I see fit, and keep my medical expenses under my watch. If I can't afford to self-insure for losses, I purchase insurance of my own choosing. I don't make a lot, but I try to spend wisely, and if I have to hand any more of it over so the government can spend it "more appropriately" then I may as well join the handout lines.

Taking my hard-earned money and handing it out to others, individuals and businesses and governments, because they were caught with the wrong product, had no money put aside, or were financially irresponsible does not sit well with me. Nor do a lot of the other federal aid programs that benefit foreign governments for flood, drought, earthquake or storm disasters. And it's not reciprocal, who helped pay for Katrina recovery?

I do believe that the punishment for corporate raiders, cheats and frauds is WAY too soft.

I don't think any of the candidates, or the incumbent, are prepared or capable of resolving the issues that face this country. But I do think we are close to the bottom, and pretty much anything is going to look better, and whoever is in office will get credit for a good job.

Vikki has my vote!

I didn't think you were trying to scare anyone John. I was referring to whoever told you that anyone making less than $250K a year was going to get their taxes raised. They keep saying it but it's not true. Everyone has the right to vote for who they think will make things better BUT do it for good reasons, not mis-information.
And as for you referring to my personal income; I haven't made over $70K taxable since I retired. So I do not pay as much tax as many do. I will not do better or worse with either candidate. It's other people I think about when I endorse Obama. Like future generations saddled with the dept the republicans have charged up since they have been in power. And also how close we are to having a 'draft'. The fact that if the middle class has more money that our car values will rise is only the icing on the cake.

What governemnt is he going to create? Do you have specific departments he's going to create. I think some people watching over the people betting on the stock market might help. He will need to raise revenue. There are a few obvious ways. Stop the $10 billion a month in handouts to Iraq will be a good start. And adding 3% to the tax rate of people making more that $250K will help. Just put it back how it was when we were paying down our dept in the 90's. How about a windfall profit tax on Big Oil? They just posted the largest quarterly profit ever in history, beating their own record set recently. Stimulate the economy at the consumer level and the economy will quit shinking and sales taxes will start flowing again. This 'Trickle Down Economics' has been a sham from the start.

Jim,
I dont agree....but we know that...
my feeling is that with Obama ,we`ll have pretty much a similar (socialist) state as we did have in Sweden in the 60`-80s with Olof Palme....and dont ask why I left....LOL

Naw, nothing radical like that. Just like how things were going in the 90's. People's wages going up gradually. Good health care available through your employer. Our country's dept getting paid down. And our Firebirds were going up in value. Just put it back how it was.

Most people are looking for unrestored, nearly complete, limited production cars.

As far as the sixes, 326, 350, there has been a flood of people selling, as well as some really nice restored or numbers matching 400 cars.

Hard to sell these days and all dependant of interior/exterior color, options, trans, engine size etc.

Very rarely will you find someone willing to pay asking price when market inundated with supply and the demand is relatively low due to the economy.

I have seen some really nice numbers matching 67 and 68's I would consider buying. Both were restored nicely, great options, 400 cars with 4 speeds. One was verdoro green, the other autumn bronze, correct colors and very nice repaints. Both were solid, no panel replacement, numbers matching. One had a 3.55 POSI, the other a 3.36 posi. Interiors were both 8-9's and undercarraiges were not spray canned.

Both had correct, functional hood tachs.

One was $21k, the other $26k.

Funny how people forget. The 90's boom was due to one thing and one thing only. Here is a hint, it had NOTHING to do with Clinton. It was this little thing called the internet boom. Plain and simple. We could have had a turd in the White House and the economy would have boomed. Some might argue that we there was a turd in the White House but I wouldn't be that mean to a turd. Osama gets elected we can put our hobby on hold for four years. The Dems have controlled Washington for the last two years, just wait till they run the whole board. Gonna be ugly!