Hey guys, new to the forum but here is my dilema. I bought a rust free california 67 firebird without an engine or transmission. It was originally a sprint ohc and powerglide car. I am wanting to put something troublefree and economical in the car to use it for a commutter in nice weather and a first car eventually for my son. I have found a 1 barrel ohc engine for $300 but I will have to find alot of the accessories like alt, ps pump, starter, air cleaner, etc. Is the 1 barrel ohc engine very economical? I was considering putting a cheverolet 250 6cyl in it but I know that is cheesy and I don't want to be embarrassed everytime I open the hood. I wanted to find a "complete" ohc engine setup but nothing so far in my area has popped up. What do you guys think? Also are the engine mounts different amongst years of ohc cars. Does it have to be firebird mounts for the ohc engine? Would a Powerglide for a 326 be the same as a powerglide for a ohc motor? would the torque converter be different? As you can see I have lots of questions but nothing but time to work with since my son is only 10yrs old right now. Thanks in advance Jeff
You found the right place to get all your questions answered. There's no shortage of knowledgeable and helpful enthusiasts. I can't help you on your questions other than to suggest you stay Pontiac!
I'm sure you'll get a lot of helpful posts soon. Trevor
Brett L. is up in Seattle...he took these pics a few years ago up there...see what you can do with a OHC6?!
And Quenton and THOCan has that Primatech bus. , and both are on this site... I`d stay 6 cyl and Pontiac.....I`m not a "origiunal" type guy ,but I think there are so few 6`s left, and they can be 'done' really nice...so why not?
Hi Jeff, yes, welcome! I'm a member of the Western Washington Firebird Club and also involved in the NW Legends GTO's... I know of a few people in the area who have some sprint stuff, and may know some one who at least had an extra sprint motor etc...
I'll check around to see what I can find. I'm kind of partial to the Sprint-6 cars myself as that was my first car. a 67 Sprint-6.
Let me know where you are at and get in touch with me and we can go from there. I'm also friends with Quenton & Brent who started Primatech... so there are LOTS of possibilities!
Hi Jeff, welcome to the site! I don't know the answers to your questions but I'm sure others with OHC6s will answer sometime today or tomorrow. Personally, I think stay with the Pontiac OHC6. I've been considering the OHC6 myself. Here's another link you might find helpful although there are many here who can help too.
I suggest that if you want to stay with the OHC Pontiac engine (and you should!) that you put a 200-4r behind it instead of the ST-300 (Powerglide). The OHC engine works very well and isn't seen very much and usually gets more attention than a built V-8 at a show & shine.
An easy improvement is to bolt on the Sprint intake and exhaust manifolds to get it back to Sprint status. You'll be very happy with the combination of power and economy.
The engine mounts are the same for all years of Firebird, so if you have them you're good.
Thanks everyone for your input. I now have a couple of lines on engines that are local. One of the engines is a 66 tempest 230cu in ohc for $200. I am waiting for the owner to get back to me. Another guy has a pretty complete package with 4barrel intake/exhaust as well as the 1 barrel stock stuff but its in pieces and he wants $800 for it. I am in no big rush since I am currently spending all my free time trying to put all new sheet metal on the back of my 67 camaro convertible that I started before I bought the firebird. If the right deal comes along I will snatch it up. The main thing I am after is a complete package so I don't get nickeled and dimed for every little piece that I am missing. Thanks again. Jeff
Welcome aboard Jeff! The 3.8L (230) OHC6 uses the same bottom end as the Chevy in line 6. '68-9 4.1L cammers are all Pontiac. Either mill is a dependable choice. There is more of a market for the Sprint parts, patience is the key for most of the humble base motor parts. There out there since most OHCers get swapped for V8's.
Your lucky to be on the west coast. You have better access to the cammer gurus Quenton and Brent. Good to know the Pontiac OHC L6 isn't scaring you off.
Actually, there's almost no commonality between the Chevy 230 OHV six and the Pontiac 230 OHC six. The bearings and the bore spacing are about the only things that are the same; even the rods are different. Come to think of it, even the rear main bearing of the OHC is different than the OHV. There's an oil hole missing and a groove should be added for better oiling when you used OHV bearings in an OHC.
I guess the rod bearings are the same.
The Pontiac OHC rods are a much higher quality rod than the OHV. The forging and heat treating that went into them was different. MAny circle track racers used the Pontiac forged rod in place of the Chevy rod for their racing engines.
The flywheels are different, as are the balancers. The list goes on.
What is true about lower end commonality is that the Sprint version and the 1-Bbl version both used identical short blocks with the exception of the harmonic balancer. The 250 Sprint harmonic Balancer is hard to come by.
The main problem with the OHC is the cost of building one. For the same money, you can build a very streetable 455 with a lot more power and tons of torque. But - as mentioned - the curb appeal of an OHC car with the hood open is without compare.
I stand corrected. My information on the 3.8L is limited. So true about curb appeal of the OHC at car shows. I had both of mine side by side at a couple of shows. The cammer drew more finger pointing and the comment, "I didn't know Pontiac had a six cylinder."
Tom - I didn't mean to hassle you directly. Sorry if I came across a little strong. I have been a consistent contributor as a member of another board dedicated to the OHC. Over the last year or more I have seen a lot of misinformation float across it, and it has irked me more than I can tell you.
One of the worst contributors to the "myth" of the OHC is Wikipedia. Though the concept of the OHC was originally based on commonality to the Chevy OHV, the end product was far from it. There is actually much, much more commonality between the 230 and the 250 than between the OHC and the OHV.
My preferred combination for building the OHC is to use a 250 crank in a 230 block with a 230 1-Bbl. head. We have pistons made to our own specs, we have cams ground to our own specs, and we use rods that are longer (and beefier) than factory rods. The block needs a little grinding and some custom sheet-metal work as a result, but the block skirt on the 230 is actually stronger than the 250. That, and it has cross-bolted main bosses already cast in to the #2 through #6 mains.
Anyway, I digress ... keep your cammer on the road and enjoy the attention it gets!
Ok guys, it looks like I finally found my engine. Its a sprint ohc 6 (250 4barrel) engine from a 67 firebird for $250. Its mostly complete, no guarantees on conditions so it will be coming apart for poor mans rebuild at least. Its missing the air cleaner assembly, fan, and has no p/s pump. How hard are these parts to come by? Are the engine mounts very specific for the ohc engines into a firebird? Do any of the camaro mounts work for this application? I found a powerglide from a 67 firebird 326 for $50 that works great but is it a direct bolt up for the sprint 6? Do you know if a powerglide crossmember for a 67 camaro would be the same as a 67 firebird powerglide crossmember? Any help would be appreciated. Jeff
If it is "from" a 1967 Firebird, it's a 230. If it's "in" a '67 Firebird, it could be a 230 or a 250. There is no such thing as a poor man's rebuild on the OHC. Plan to rebuild the entire engine, not just the top end or bottom end only.
The fan is easy to find. The PS pump is like every other Saginaw pump. The bracketry is OHC-specific.
The engine mounts are VERY specific to the OHC Firebird and will set you back about $150 for the pair.
Camaro mounts will NOT work.
The OHC ST300 (not Powerglide) in the '67 is air cooled, and has two large holes in the case, and the torque converter has a heat sink. You will have to locate a '68 or '69 radiator with cooling line fittings if you want to use the 326 ST300. It is a direct bolt-up otherwise.
The cross member for the ST300 is the same as the TH350. Not sure if the Camaro cross member is the same.
Quenton, I can't tell you how much your advice is appreciated. You don't think I can get away with rings,bearings, and gasket set to make this thing run again? I guess I won't really know what I have until I get it apart and start specing all the parts. Whos the best source for the OHC parts? How do I tell if the engine is a 250 or 230 cu in without having it apart? The engine does have a four barrel and dual exh manifold which would be the 250 sprint if they are orginal? right? I suppose someone could have taken a 230 and put the goodies on it? The owner claims it is out of a 67 sprint firebird and that was the only reason he bought it for a backup for his 67 sprint bird. I have set next friday to go look at it since he is 2hours north of me and we are expecting some crappy weather (yet again). I think I am going to stuff a 67 Camaro 6cyl and poweglide in the car for awhile until I have the time and funds to overhaul and restore the sprint engine. I like the idea of a economical 1barrel motor to get it around for awhile, and since it won't require any permanent changes it should be easy to swap back once I have gathered all the parts. The engine does have the engine mounts on the block but I will need the mounts that bolt to the subframe. I am going to start looking around for those. Jeff
For starters, both the 230 Sprint and the 250 Sprint used those manifolds, so that doesn't mean anything. The best way to tell the displacement of the short block is by the block's date code.
Each year's OHC is unique in one way or another, but it's easier to identify each one when you have another one to compare it to. You can almost always tell the year of the short block - and therefor the displacement - by the block date code. But it's easy and possible to make a 230 into a 250 by swapping out the crank. (They have the same bore.) The head's date code is under the cam cover, so unless the motor is apart you won't be able to exactly tell the year of the head, but there are ways to immediately tell the size (230 vs. 250).
For a quick check of the short block, the balancer is unique to each displacement and each type. (230 vs. 250 and 1-Bbl. vs. Sprint.) If there is no balancer, the crank snout is 1-1/4" for a 230 and 1-3/16" for a 250. The short block is completely the same between a Sprint and a 1-Bbl other than the balancer. The engine code will tell you whether the engine had (not has) a 1-Bbl head or a Sprint head.
For the head, there is at least one subtle difference for each specific displacement and year. Again, this is a lot easier to manage when you have another to compare it to, but from the outside you have ZERO chance of identifying the head as a Sprint head vs. a 1-Bbl. head. Along with the date code, the heads casting number is under the cam cover. You MUST remove the cam cover to determine if you have a Sprint head.
But, for the sake of argument, the cylinder head can tell you a lot about the size of the motor it came from:
1966 Only (and therefor a 230): Used less material around the freeze plugs on the head.
1966 and 1967 (230): The temp switch / sending unit is a 3/8" pipe thread. Unfortunately, this sender is almost impossible to find, so we ALWAYS open the threads up to a 1/2" pipe thread so that we can use the V-8 switch or sending unit.
1968 (250) used a 1/2" sending unit and the water pump bypass is external.
1969 (250) used an internal water pump bypass, a different water pump, and a different water pump pulley. Almost no one goes through all the trouble (except us) of converting an engine from external to internal bypass. Most people would simply eliminate the bypass which helps cooling and shortens the warm-up time.
Because these motors have been out there for 40+ years, it's impossible to tell whether any of the parts are original. You will have to have the cylinder head's casting number to be certain you have a Sprint head. However, all is not lost. It turns out that the 230 1-Bbl. head is remarkably similar to the 250 Sprint head.
I sent you a PM so that we can take this off-line and not bore the rest of the crowd here.
Tom - I didn't mean to hassle you directly. Sorry if I came across a little strong.
No harm done. I guess I know enough to be dangerous. I wish I could build a killer OHC motor, for that matter I wish I could keep my cammer. I'm outa space, time and money to keep two 'birds going. The purchace of a 2010 Camaro may be pushing my cammer out of the nest.
I saw a 230 with a trans on Ebay today, check it out. I have to beat the drum for sticking with the same engine as what came in your car. You may have to change springs front and rear, rear end ratios and I'm a tech guy anyway and, although it's old school now, I was intrigued with the thought that an American car company would attempt that technology then. When the Firebird came out, I was too young to drive but always thought that if I had the chance, I'd order a Sprint. Well, my Uncle blessed me with an OHC 1967. Some minor engine problems but all in all a great little car but with a powerglide. I'm in the process of converting it to a T5 Borg Warner. Pretty tricky but I'll get it. Have fun with your new 'Bird!
Yes, that is exactly what it is. '67 230 1-Bbl. with A.I.R. pump. At $.01 it's quite a bargain. The motor is located about an hour from me.
My '67 Sprint Convertible is a CA car. I've got all the smog gear but the bracket is busted. I doubt I will ever return it to stock, but it would be a nice goodie to have. I won't bid on it if someone here wants it.
I love the name they gave the Smog Pump Air Injection Reactor - A.I.R
Good to see you chime in when you have the time Q. Still collecting parts for the motor swap... taking longer with money being tight and all, but got started cleaning things up at least.
Jeff, if you need a hand with anything just let me know. Sounds like I'm on your way up or back from checking out the Sprint motor... Let us know how it looked.
They named it what it is. It injects cold air into the exiting exhaust charge to reduce the amount of dissociation of Carbon Dioxide into Carbon Monoxide by reducing the temperature. The EGR valve took over this duty after the reduction of compression ratio didn't do it all in 1971 & '72.
The chamber shape change in 1967 (061 heads) allowed the motors to reduce their "smog" limits in 1968 when all of the heads were switched over to the "open" chamber design. This was combined with a reduction in dynamic compression which also reduced the combustion pressure at lower RPM, further reducing the formation of "smog" gasses.
Glad to hear you're still moving it forward, Brett. I'm busier than ever with the new company, but every once in a while I like to help out if I can.
I still have mine, and know of a few still on the cars...
Just for kick a sweet Sprint Motor... For some inspiration!
Yeah Q, still moving forward. Slowly but surely... I have a cruise event Saturday, the Firebird Club is joining the Camaro Club for a cruise to see a local car collection. So I may make that the last cruise before tearing it down for the swap... engine bay detail etc... but we'll see? I still have to get the new motor ready and don't want to have the Bird down any longer than I have to...
How is your OHC Project coming? Got her up and running? Or is it on the back burner again being so busy? Hope your able to enjoy it a bit this spring/summer... or I do I have to come down for another week-end to lend a hand? Just say the word...
Jeff welcome to the site. As u can see all the people on here are very helpfull and friendly.hope to see you on from time to time. vikki,s site is very good spend some time in it sheri,s sites she sent are good to.
Hi Brett. nice engine bay pics on the ohc.looks like a single barrell??.what year is it i ask because of the pcv line from the vent tube to the breather. the breather on my eninge the snorcle points straight out instead of down like yours. i was told mine is an earlier version for the 4 barrel sprint engine,also the carb has on tag or numbers on it same was told early or proto-type.not sure what to believe. any info worth having any help appreciated. hopfully be postin some pics soon. it is a 28 year old restoration so a litle shabby looking. thanks for the time (richard)
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