Luckily my friend Mike has the knowledge, the tools and the lift that we will need to make this happen. This is several large projects all about to happen. The motor is back, the Muncie case came back today (had to send it out to the have the counter shaft hole in the case Nurreled(s) because it had a slight leak). So the motor needs to go in, the 4-speed conv. has to happen, the new posi unit and gears need to be done, the 4-wheel disc conv. has to be installed. Oh boy, this is gonna be a serious undertaking!
The motor is back from the machine shop and going back together. In addition to the new rotating assembly we did a fair amount of work on the top end. A complete valve job was done with bronze guides, stainless valves & some port work. In addition, we are installing a set of Harland Sharp full roller rockers, one piece push rods and a new HEI plug and play dist. (looks totally stock).
Then, we have a brand new Ram clutch, pressure plate and flywheel. Ram just came out with all of this and it is really for higher HP race engines, but we figured it should work well with my new combo.
This motor ran very stron right up to the very day we pulled it. With all of the above, we are hoping for 425HP.
Thanks, we had a slight delay with a few parts. Had a heck of a time getting the correct valve springs for my Crane roller cam. With Crane going out of business, and then back in business again, it took some time to get a new full set of springs for my old Crane roller cam.
Anyway, we now have everything we need and the motor is being picked up from the shop where it is being assembled on Tues. We are going to install the new 400, do the 4-wheel disc. conv., the 4-speed conv., and install a posi rear all at the same time! Car will likely be down for about a week. I'll be sure to take several pics and post them...
Yes, bought by S&S (company that makes all cams for Harley Davidson). We actually went to their new facility and met the new owners/operators etc. They are now back up and running in their new place and production is almost 100%. They are putting out an entire new line of ignition products. We also met some of their engineers that have now gone off on their own and producing a competitor product of their own mainly ignition products.
Unfortunately I could not wait for eith of them to begin production on their ignition products so I went with a brand new product from MSD. They are making a completely self contained HEI iginition that looks 100% stock, black cap and all (although the black cap option is another $30) on top of the $349 price tag. Then their matching coil is another $50 and their totaly stock appearing plug wires (black with correct plug ends and correct looking straight cap ends) are yet antother $99.
So all in all the brand new MSD plug & play Pontiac ignition system is not cheap, but said to be as close to stock appearing and best performing HEI system ever built. I'll let you know just how well this thing is once it is in the car...
We have high hopes of this new engine being quite potent and quite the performer. Knowing this will be my last chance to build the car I always wanted the Bird to be, we have pretty much gone all out on this beast. This LeMans should be quite the sleeper (looks wise). She will now sound like a sleeper. Went with the GTO/H.O. manifolds from R.A.R.E. along with their 2-1/2" mandrel bent system front to back with their loudest mufflers they offer. LOL So all in all, this car should bark and should move to match it's bark. Time will tell. Well, off to Daytona for the last night of Bike Week. Going to Boot Hill for a few sodas!
So you don't reeeally care if it's all stock numbers matching as long as it looks like it, hmmmm? LOL. Even the all original king slips to the dark side some(sorry, no pun intended).
Actually, I've pretty much always been that even with the bird. IMO there is nothing better than a classic muscle car that appears all stock/original and if you can hide some extra muscle and not have it look goofy, I love it! Especially when using stock/original performance parts that were offered from the mfg. like long branch/H.O. monifolds etc. opposed to slapping a set of headers under the hood etc.
Along this same topic, did anyone read the article in this months Pontiac Enthusiast? There is an article called "show field faux pas". I couldn't have written it any better myself as they talk about when they (the Pontiac Gods) walk through a show field and see horrendous things people do to their Pontiacs ie: master cylinders painted black, Corvette wheels, goofy rims/wheels/tires, nicknames painted on cars, closed hoods, ribbed-universal radiator hoses or worse yet the braided ones with red & blue ends, painted brake drums, random acts of chrome under the hood (stuff you buy off the shelf at AutoZone or Pep Boys), and my all time personal favorite- gauges screwed to the bottom of the dash and or console or even cowl vents.
Twice a year our little Pontiac group of guys get together and walk the show field at the Daytona Speedway. Once for the spring show (coming up at the end of this month) and then again on Thanksgiving Day. This exact topic comes up every time we walk the field and we see some really nice classic muscle cars and almost every one of them have one of two things, HUGE rims and tires or hacked up interiors. And every time, we all look at each other and all we do is say "why". LOL It's become somewhat of a sport at this point to walk the show field and look for cars that are actually stock appearing or not horrendously butchered and or "ghettoed out". It's becoming more and more difficuly every show and our fearless Pontiac leader always says, oh well, your names not on the title is it?
In fact, there was a large group of guys at last night's car cruise here in town and this was the main topic. Funny because this topic and the old vs. new (classics vs. new muscle) car showing up at car shows etc. seems to always come up and often become fairly heated conversations. It's kinda fun to hear and watch people's opinions.
Funny because this topic and the old vs. new (classics vs. new muscle) car showing up at car shows etc. seems to always come up and often become fairly heated conversations. It's kinda fun to hear and watch people's opinions.
My opinion is pretty much anyone can buy a new muscle car and throw some rims on it, but it takes a lot of time, money and work to bring a classic back to life.....
For me the difference is minimal. I have a Pontiac 400 in a car that was originaly a 6 banger. If you add a factory tilt wheel or ram air package to a car that never had those options you are not doing anything different than a person adding after market parts. Put a car with "pontiac" or "factory correct" parts added and display the PHS documents saying the car never had those parts and then let someone make judgements on the car. I'm not trying to pass my car off as something it never was. My "modified" clone car allows me to enjoy cruising. At every car cruise I go to, there is a person that looks upon my car negatively, but rest assured a few seconds later I will get ten fold in compliments. You can look at a car see aftermarket rims, but before judgement is passed think about all of the non-original stuff is on your own car. I love both original and modified cars.... Keep them coming.
[quote=SethMast] If you add a factory tilt wheel or ram air package to a car that never had those options you are not doing anything different than a person adding after market parts./quote]
IMO I dissagree with this part of your comment. If someone adds OEM parts/options to a car that did not come with them originally, it often will add value opposed to walking into AutoZone and buying a 3-gauge cluster and screwing it to the bottom of the dash for a couple of reasons. One, an OEM part fits, looks and works better than something off the shelf. Second, installing store bought parts usually requires "rigging" stuff to fit or work. Using the gauge example, in order to screw the gauges to the bottom of the dash one would then ruin the dash or console thus reducing the value of that original part not too mention how botched it will most often look.
Another example, if you install an OEM tilt wheel into your non tilt wheel car, that will not detract from it's value. However, you install a billet after market unit that requires drilling out the original holes etc. this will not add value.
I typically look at classic cars from an investment aspect. The funny thing is most people will say, I am building this car my way, the way I want it not for investment purposes, so I don't care about value etc. Then, this same person once they get 3/4 of the way done with the car either looses intrest and or runs out of money. Then, they try and sell this "project" and try to get all of their money out of it and realize because they hacked up the car and did it "their way" they can't get a third of their money back etc. I've seen this happen time and time again.
So for me, I usually try to always make improvements/upgrades with resale in the back of my mind and how it may impact the car's value. In the case of our LeMans, swaping out the engine, I will keep the numbers matching engine, trans & console. This way, if I need to sell the car, the new owner will have the option. Not too mention the new motor will be installed and dressed to look totally stock and the four speed conversion will be done 100% correct using all correct parts. The four wheel disc brake conversion is 100% bolt on and the ONLY reason I am doing it is for safety. The drums on the LeMans are terrible unlike the ones on the Bird, they were excellent.
My wife will ultimately be the one driving the LeMans in the very near future so I want the car to handle and stop the best it can.
Not sure how you figure that one, but to each his own right?
Another order arrived today. Now I know I'll get beat up on this one, however, just wait til I post pics once installed. For example, the billet MSD dist. will be painted cast grey, Taylor plug wires in this pic will have the boots on both ends removed and stock ones installed in their place and the white lettering on the plug wires will also be removed.
My goal is to hide these few upgraded components as much as possible. If I wasn't trying to get this car into the low 13's and maybe even high 12's I wouldn't use any of these newer parts. I have a very specific goal of beating a certain 65 Tempest that we just put a brand new 400 motor in this past Friday.
I need every edge I can as my friend had this motor built with the goal of beating the Firebird. What he nor I ever expected was the Firebird being hit and my motor going in to the same shop that built his for a complete rebuild! LOL So the race is on, so to speak!
Joe, personally I can't fault anybody for making upgrades to their car. I think the issue is what people consider an "upgrade". I used to do alot of shows with my son and it got to the point where I stopped saying anything outloud about somebody elses decisions. My son started getting to where he would walk up to a car with me and say "ok what's wrong with this one?" I started to see where it was affecting the way he looked at cars. He's a very smart and creative kid and I didn't want it to effect the way he looked at things. Much as I hate to see some of the things people do to their cars I have the option to walk away.
For the most part I try to make "upgrades" to my car that can be reversed if need be. But I wouldn't want to put limits on my efforts either. I mean if I could afford the new fuel injection unit and I thought it would be a cost effective improvement, I don't think I would hesitate. I'll bet there would be 10 people that would say that's a cool setup but there would be one or two that would say that's not the way it should be. I just installed a Vintage Air kit in my non ac car. Is that bad? It's a bolt on. It's not a factory ac. Will I enjoy it just as much when it hits 100* in the summer, hell yeah!!! And I'll make no apoligies for it either. Same with the panhard rod I just put on the rear or the rear swaybar(they never came stock). Same with my 400 in a 350 car. IMO it's a judgement call an who's to say my judgement is better than anyone elses but me?
That's the cool thing about owning a classic, people can do whatever they want to them and we all have different opinions etc. I am also not saying my ideas are the better way or the only way etc. I just base my thoughts on what I have seen in the past as mentioned above when it comes to resale.
Given your example above with regards to adding a/c to a non a/c car, I would do the same if I wanted air, but I would do it with OEM/stock/original parts vs. the vintage air option. There again, different ways to approach the same result...
Agreed. My improvements usually run to the side of the most weight savings/efficency/cost if there is a choice, not necessarily OEM parts. To each his own. It all depends on your own vision for your car. The VA system is about 1/3 the total weight and the compressor is about half of the original. Since it's mounted highest point in my center of gravity it made sense for me to go as light as I could.
I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, I'm just a little touchy when someone (not anyone here) would make a comment slighting anyones car. Your right Joe, to each his own. I like your car, especially with all, here it goes, the modifications that you're making. And yes, my car does have the camaro spoiler on the back, but it was added before I had the car. I'll eventually switch to the TA spoiler once I can trust that the kids won't bang their bikes into a new paint job. But I don't hate the current spoiler either.
Funny thing is, I am really having a hard time excepting the mods I am making, but what keeps me sane is knowing I will keep every single part to put the car back and the ONLY thing that is truly being modified will be the hole in the floor for the 4-speed. But even that, the cut out piece will be saved and can always be welded back in, ground down etc. I will feel better once it is all done, installed and everything painted correctly etc. I have gone out of my way to round up the correct parts so hopefully it look 100% stock when compelted...
I have done the same thing. I now have two 350 hoods in storage, an automatic trans under my work bench and numerous other stock parts stashed in the attic and basement just in case, someday, somebody says "your car would be worth more if it was a plain jane column shift automatic instead of a nicely optioned manual with a console". I still can't bring myself to sell all of those extra parts though. Anyone need a clock delete plate?
Ok, the 4-wheel power disc brake conversion is under way! The fronts WILL clear the 14" Rally I rims, ONLY because they are not originals, they are new repops. Most disc. conv. will NOT clear most 14" original rims as there is not enough clearence. So far, it looks like the backs are going to be VERY close, won't know for sure until we get further into the rears (tomorrow).
Also, we found the car had it's original upper and lower ball joints, shocks, springs, brake lines etc. ALL of which are now replaced. In addition, the rear axle bearings were shot as well and being replaced. Some of this we expected, some we did not. Nonetheless, we are now heading into day 3 tomorrow...
Are you staying within your budget..? Sounds pretty expensive to me, this engine-tranny-swap-suspension-resto in just a few weeks! Nice though, must be a nice ride this spring!
LOL, that's true. That being said (or should I say sad?), my pockets have limits. I know Joe as as well, but it looks like no expense is saved to make this one h$ll of a ride! And that is a good thing of course. So it sounds like that parting out the Bird and getting the insurance money? You deserve it, happy that you've found a good replacement for your Bird Joe!
Thanks guys. If the 400 would not have needed to be rebuilt I would have been right on with budget. However, two things have gone by the way side, for now. One, posi rear is going to have to wait. Based on the fact that a new carrier, ring & pinion and install pack is about $900 all total. And, the H.O. manifolds and a complete exhaust system is about $1100, there went the 2k that ended up going into just the machining alone on the 400 and the labor was waived by the engine builder (good friend to say the least).
Then, I also had planned on reusing my clutch, dist., rockers and a few other things. Well, one thing lead to another and I ended up buying the new RAM 500hp clutch system, Harland Sharp roller rockers, new roller timing chain & gears, the new MSD billet plug & play dist ($400 w/black cap), MSD coil ($100black), Taylor plug wires ($100 black), etc. etc. etc. so all in all I ended up 2k off budget and will have to wait for the posi rear and exhaust system.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure. I feel like I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe. 1968 400 convertible (Scarlet) 1976 T/A - 455 LE (No Burt) 1976 T/A New baby, starting full restoration. 1968 350 - 4 speed 'vert - 400 clone (the Beast!) 1968 350 convertible - Wife's car now- 400 clone (Aleutian Blue) (Blue Angel) 2008 Durango - DD 2008 GXP - New one from NH is AWESOME! 2017 Durango Citadel - Modern is nice! HEMI is amazing! 1998 Silverado Z71 - Father-daughter project 1968 400 coupe - R/A clone (Blue Pearl) (sold) 1967 326 convertible - Sold 1980 T/A SE Bandit - Sold
I guess I should run a magneto or a generator ....
I agree! Excellent suggestions!
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure. I feel like I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe. 1968 400 convertible (Scarlet) 1976 T/A - 455 LE (No Burt) 1976 T/A New baby, starting full restoration. 1968 350 - 4 speed 'vert - 400 clone (the Beast!) 1968 350 convertible - Wife's car now- 400 clone (Aleutian Blue) (Blue Angel) 2008 Durango - DD 2008 GXP - New one from NH is AWESOME! 2017 Durango Citadel - Modern is nice! HEMI is amazing! 1998 Silverado Z71 - Father-daughter project 1968 400 coupe - R/A clone (Blue Pearl) (sold) 1967 326 convertible - Sold 1980 T/A SE Bandit - Sold
LOL well that was a long day! And another tomorrow. Good thing I have good friends as I am pretty much just a helper at this point considering my vision issue. I've gotten so used to only reading on this 50" plasma TV that I use as my monitor, that trying to read the instructions that came with the brake kit is now impossible for me.
Anyway, lots of progress today. Hoping to have the entire 4-wheel disc brake conv. done tomorrow. Then we will take a break for a few days as there is a Pontiac only show coming up this w/e in Jacksonville this Saturday and there are 12 of us going up early Saturday.
Then, next week we will begin the engine swap and 4-speed conv...
Well, after SEVERAL setbacks on the 4-wheel power disc brake conv. it is finally completed. We ended up replacing all of the following which were ALL the original parts: balls joints, springs (front & rear), shocks (front & rear), endlinks, swaybar bushings, all brake lines.
I will say one thing, this wan not an easy project but the end results, WOW! Absolutely unreal!!!! This car stops like a brand new car and it's weird, almost like having anti lock brakes as they do not squal the tires when you hit them hard, they just STOP the car. Truly amazing, then to have all new springs and shocks, ball joints etc. This car drove really nice before all of this, now, it's truly like a new car.
Had I known this, I would have gone to 4-wheel disc on the Bird the day I bought it! WOW!
As you can see, I painted everything with Eastwoods spray grey. Keep in mind I am trying to keep the mods on the down low. Trying to hide them and make them blend, not jump out and say hey, look at me kinda thing. Otherwise I could have had everything powder coated bright red, gold etc.
The only thing that stands out now that indicates power, is the hood tach. Once the new motor is in, 4-speed conv. completed, this is going to be one serious sleeper. I can not wait to get her done, this car is going to be a serious street machine. You better get going Todd, and get my old Bird up and running. I want to run that ole girl down! I'm just glad you don't have my old motor, glad it's going in the LeMans. And now creekbob has a new motor as well in his Bird, my buddy Mike has a brand new motor in his 65 Tempest. I'm pretty sure I can take all of you with my brand new 461 stroker! Ooops, I mean 400!
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure. I feel like I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe. 1968 400 convertible (Scarlet) 1976 T/A - 455 LE (No Burt) 1976 T/A New baby, starting full restoration. 1968 350 - 4 speed 'vert - 400 clone (the Beast!) 1968 350 convertible - Wife's car now- 400 clone (Aleutian Blue) (Blue Angel) 2008 Durango - DD 2008 GXP - New one from NH is AWESOME! 2017 Durango Citadel - Modern is nice! HEMI is amazing! 1998 Silverado Z71 - Father-daughter project 1968 400 coupe - R/A clone (Blue Pearl) (sold) 1967 326 convertible - Sold 1980 T/A SE Bandit - Sold