hi i'm a new 68 convertible owner and new to the group. i have a automatic column shift car and want to swap in a 4 speed. a couple of things i don't know... do i need a porch floor insert, or is cutting a hole good enough? are the consoles the same for auto and 4 speed differing by only the bezel insert? is there wiring to be considered?

thanks for any help - i appreciate it

sean

I don't know about the hole, but the consoles are different because the manual shifter is offset towards the driver verses the automatic.

4 speed consoles are fairly hard to find in nice condition.

You need to cut a hole in the floor and you require a 4sp console. There is wire harness I believe in order to facilitate the reverse lights. All the bolt holes etc. in the frame are there waiting for you. You jut need to get the pedals linkage pieces from a donor car or buy new.

What kind of 4sp are you thinking of putting it? Stock M21/22 or T-10?

The Firebird does not use a porch as does the "A"-body cars. Most of the companies out there ie: Ames, NPD etc. offer a "4-speed" conv. kit and also sell the pedals as well.

My advise to you is to print out the manual trans section from the assembly manual and be sure to round up ALL of the CORRECT parts before starting the conv.

Also, just to give you an idea, this is not an inexpensive undertaking. Just the parts alone, NOT including the transmission & shifter, shifter body etc. you are looking at $1500. Then the transmission itself can range from $1500 for a rebuilt Muncie to $3000 for a 5/6 speed of your choice.

So all in all, there are TONS of parts and a fair amount of cash to make this transmission. I would be very cautious using "used" parts. If you do, be sure they are the right parts and they are in very good condition. I've seen people make these conversions using incorrect, beaten & battered used parts and end up with a terrible conversion.

Bottom line IMO, do your homework and be sure to round up the right stuff. Good luck...

I have a 400 auto with console and will be converting to manual also. After looking into this for a couple of months, I have put this project on hold until I have the $ to get a Keisler TKO500 perfect fit kit. I actually got to drive a Camaro that used this kit and talked to the shop that did it. In their opinion, it's the most complete kit available and was the easiest conversion they ever did. Not cheap, but not that much more than piecing everything together on it's own.

I personally know 3 guys with "f"-bodies who have done conversions. I too just recently converted my 67 LeMans. In all cases, the total cost was more than any of us calculated. Lucky for me, I bought EVERYTHING back when our Bird as hit and we parted it out. Otherwise, I'd never have been able to come up with the cash for such a project. Not to mention, I had my completely rebuilt M21/22 from the Bird along with the bellhousing.

Another thing to keep in mind when installing one of the newer trans out there, either a 5 speed or 6 speed etc. in the event you go to sell the car, something other than an original 4 speed may not be as desireable.

Two of my friends who did the 5/6 speed conversions on their "f"-body cars did so thinking it would enable them to drive the car more often and or further distances. Now that the conversions are completed BOTH of them wish they had gone the OEM 4-speed route.

What they found is that even with the 5/6 speed they still don't drive their cars any more or any further than they would have if they had gone with a 4-speed. They also claim the newer style trans don't have the feel of an "old school 4-speed muscle car". In addition, there were several mods required to make the newer trans work and neither of them were able to use their stock consoles. The one guy went without one, the other butchered an OEM console to the point it looks horrendous.

I personally have driven the one, it's a second gen T/A, he used the Tremac 5 speed. Although it shifts really smooth and it does drop the RPMs considerably, I wouldn't want one if it was given to me for free. IMO the car totally loses it's overall feel. Just something to keep in mind...

thanks to all for the reply - i really appreciate it! when i bought the car, it came with a chevy 400 from a 75 caprice - runs like a bat outta hell. the dude also gave me a '69 b-body 400 and 2 muncie 4-speeds, both m21s. one was rebuilt with chevy bellhousing, one has broken dogear with BOP bell housing. he also gave me the manual pedals. i acquired a manual/console steering column, and recently i bought an auto console, but i didn't know if the auto and manual were the same.

i have a 70 grand prix that i've collected 4 speed parts for for years and i can appreciate that the correct parts make all the difference. the frame bracket on a grand prix is not reproduced. the pot-metal console insert for manual trans is not reproduced. i spent big $$$ buying both to get a correct conversion. i've learned the f-bodies are more easily acquired, but i can appreciate that the correct parts make all the difference. i may make the conversion to auto console, then to 4 speed, but we'll see.

i also very much appreciate that rowing 4 muscle car gears is not the same as an updated manual. the sound of a muncie 4 speed...the feel of being connected to the driving experience...that's why i have to convert auto to manual thanks again for the replys

sean

I also have the muncie and have thought about the 5/6 speed conversion about everytime I get on the freeway but unless I was going to make it my daily driver, I don't think I ever would. It just sounds different because we're all used to driving quiet cars all day long. She cruises just fine at 75mph. Just makes a bit more noise is all.
How long is it going to take make up that couple of miles to the gallon advantage enough to cover the $3500 conversion cost?

Good point Firebob. In fact, my friend who has an 80 T/A just went through this whole conv. from the original 4-speed to a 6 speed. The car is finished however, he makes the same point. He would have to drive the car 12k miles per year for the next 5 years to make up the difference etc. All in all, he is not happy with the conv. and the money spent to do so...

I agree with those who say that going with all new parts is the the way to go but having said that here's my story. Wanted a manual car when I was looking for my convertible but setteled for an automatic. I came across a box of parts at a swap meet including bell housing, pedals, z-bar and other parts for the swap (pretty much everything except the trans and clutch) for $75. That started the wheels in motion. Found a 4-speed and clutch. Hardest thing to find was the flywheel which I ended up buying from a guy walking distance from my home. Found a console on E-bay. Put new bushings in the pedal assy. and put everything together and loved the results but, having other cars with 5-speeds, missed that overdrive gear. So, after a couple of years with the 4-spd, I switched to a t-5 five speed. Now I know that the t-5 can't handle real hard driving, but for my style of use, it is just fine. The original console works and looks just fine (it is moved back approx. 2 1/2 "). Over-all cost has been under $1,000. Actually sold the 4-spd for more than I paid for it. For me the car is much more drivable than the original. I did however keep all of the original parts "just in case". I usually put on between 3 and 4k miles a year .

are we really talking gas milage. lol. love my 4 speed

Gas mileage was never an issue for me. I feel like I'm driving a manual shift car and just riding in an automatic.

If I wanted good gas milage and a 6 speed, I'd buy a 4th gen R/A T/A! But I prefer old school muscle and a 4 speed!

Grandpa used to always say....be happy with what you have...nothing like all original...just sayin..

Who could be "happy" driving a muscle car that has an auto trans? j/k IMO I could never own any car that is considered to be a muscle car and not have it be a 4-speed. To me they are one in the same, muscle car/4-speed. Sorry auto guys, just my personal preference/opinion...

I love the 4 speed in the bird. It really makes it feel like a 60's muscle car to me. The new camaro has a 6 speed and it's a smooth as silk but that's not why I built a 1968 muscle car. It's supposed to be a little noisy and unrefined. Just my .02.