Couldn't help myself. I get bored easy. Simple minds are easily entertained.

That was funny.

Back in the bad old days, resizing pistons consisted of either knurling the skirts or squeezing the pin bosses together to move the skirts out a bit; neither is recommended, so you might want to clarify exactly what was done to the pistons.

Ahhh crap. Resized pistons. Wow.

Resized connecting rods... cleaned up pistons

Extreme typo

Drivetrain went in yesterday.

I've had this car for a year. There is really no telling how the engine ran for that year, as this is my first Pontiac/first muscle car... so I had nothing to compare it to.

Still anxious to get in and take it for a spin!

The saga continues...

$3000 budget and mech thought it would be 3 weeks.

9.5 weeks later - $4700 to mech + machine shop and $2500 to Monster Transmissions...

and it is getting ugly.

Car was "ready" on Friday.
- No more powerful than before (even though my engine was trashed before rebuild and 200-4R has deeper 1st & 2nd)
- Automatic shifting not working right - manual shifting OK
- Bottom end noise... wtf?!?!?!?

Drove car for about 10 min and it is back at the mechanic. He thinks the noise was the fuel pump and will be replacing it. If it really is an engine noise, I'm going to lose it. It sounded the same as before the rebuild!


Transmission wise... This has been very frustrating.
200-4R w/torque converter & complete kit is supposed to be fairly plug and play.
- Cross member didn't fit - mech had to cut it down in the middle
- Torque converter 1 didn't fit transmission
- Torque converter 2 didn't fit flywheel
- New flywheel sent - doesn't have the anti-crack plate (they say it is heavy duty and doesn't need it)
- Very loud clanging (not grinding) noise when starting car. Figured this is just a starter/shim thing but mech says something about teeth
- Very improper shifting points, getting stuck in gears, etc. Monster says TV cable needs adjustment. Mechanic says they adjusted it so much that the cable is now worn... and that they believe it is a stuck throttle body, not the cable.
Monster says that is probably not the case and that they probably didn't adjust correctly then drove it too much, destroying parts of the transmission and voiding the warranty on it.



The mix-ups from Monster cost me about $650 in additional labor (all of the trans/tq/flywheel install/remove/install/remove/etc).

Transmission might be busted and not covered by warranty... (it has been in my car less than a week - brand new build! It isn't even being driven)

This, to me, is a situation where monster should consider themselves into me for $650 for the labor costs on their screwups.... and the mechanic is into me for whatever it takes to get the transmission going.

But it's not that simple. Monster folks are being patient and nice - though I have to push them a little bit to get them to be helpful.
My mechanic, however... (who has my car just because of a friend-of-a-friend situation)... is a hot tempered, finger pointing redneck who goes from buddy to enemy when I so much as mention that something may have not been adjusted properly.

Clearly I need to be away from this mechanic. But clearly he is responsible for any damage he may have done...

I think the battle to extract dollars out of this guy would be epic and dangerous. Literally.
The guy brags about stories of violence... then when my girlfriend and I dropped off my new Diamondback red line tires, some guy came in complaining about the ball joints on his truck being "bone dry." The mech and the guy immediately escalated... while a couple of other guys opened drawers for supplies - one drawer had long wrenches and the other had a handgun... and just about ran the guy out of there.

My car is at his shop now. Monster has offered whatever labor is required to get things going again, short of a transmission rebuild if the mech destroyed it.
So hopefully today or tomorrow he'll have completed the fuel pump switch and I can have it towed to monster.

Whether or not the mech has done good work, I'm not comfortable leaving my car there anymore.

Soooo....

Step 1. Tow car from mech to Monster
Step 2. Flywheel/starter noise situation
Step 3. Determine the adjustments required (or extend of damage to transmission)
Step 4. If the transmission or something is damaged and requires work, I'll consider myself as having a $650 tab at monster... If it is a bad piece of equipment, I'll consider that to be Monster warranty. If there are no costs associated, I need to pursue Monster for $$$. If there are costs and they are significant, I need to find a way to pursue the mechanic without endangering the car or humans... If they aren't significant, I'll probably let them come off the 'tab' and not create enemies over it.



Ugh.

Sorry to hear it...and that's why I don't do business with "friends of friends"

WOW!!! Sorry to hear all of the bad news. I hope it all works out in the end. A improperly adjusted TV cable can wreck a transmission pretty quick.

hope everything works out, I don't envy your situation.

Wow what a mess.

The only plus side is if you can get the tranny fixed your half way there.

You should post up a video of the engine running. There are a few things the engine clang might be.

That brain dead redneck should not be allowed to get away with crappy work. Sounds like you should play it safe but at least report it to the better business bureau.

It is sad when you pay good money for a service and get poor service plus attitude when questioning problems. A good mechanic will never make promises he cannot keep. PERIOD. Good mechanic can figure out what is wrong with a basic combustion engine.PERIOD. Same goes with the transmission. Most here are not mechanics but know how to do almost any building-tuning of classic cars. It is car mechanics at it's basics..... Get that car out of his shop!!!!! PERIOD....

Agreed. Most fixes are done by judicious application of common sense, assisted by moderate technical skill (mostly using the right tools for the job at hand and a manual or forum for information) and a measure of money for the right parts. Experience comes by doing, not by paying, and you have a vested interest in your car that no one else has.

Plus you can't beat the satisfaction of a job well done!

Sorry to hear the nightmare continues.

Did you have your rods turned to match the crank? Engine balanced?

Crank was turned an additional 10/10, resulting in 10/20 or 20/10 (had been turned in 1978 I found out).
Rods were sized.
All new bearings.
New Cam.
etc etc etc.


Mechanic did the disassembly before sending back to the machine shop.
#4 cyl (rod?) bearing was trashed.

Must have been too small of a bearing, bad sizing of connecting rod, or uneven turn of the crank.


Engine went to the machine shop today. Still need to find a way to spend hours getting the transmission to the transmission people. Nobody thinks it is their fault, so nobody wants to make the 2 x 2hr round trips to get the trans moved around. Ugh.

Hang in there.

I wonder if it might be better to get the motor working first then haul the whole car and tranny to monster to get fixed. They could make sure the TV cable is adjusted perfectly.

Engine is going back in the car this week.

Mechanic will be physically mounting the transmission but not connecting cables.
The car will be towed to Monster for final connections and adjustments, so that is already in the plan Rohrt.

That tow should happen Friday or early next week.

Monster has a dyno and all kinds of transmission know-how... so hopefully the transmission was not damaged by the mechanic... and hopefully she is running strong!

Today is the 14 week anniversary of my car going into the shop. (From daily driver to dead in a minute...ugh)

If they have a test stand they could test & break in the engine before installing in the car.

17 weeks and 5 days since my car has gone into the shop.

Recent updates - mechanic got everything installed again - I had the car towed to Monster Transmission to check it out.

Monster said all trans clutches and the fluid were burnt. Transmission destroyed, non-warranty fix. $2500 replacement.... Or... they'll "do me a solid" and I would have to forget about the $650 I've been hitting them up for. (3 of the extra uninstall/reinstalls of the transmission were due to Monster sending the wrong parts - consistently).

They built a new transmission, tested in test car (good), installed in my car... No good. Stack shifting, etc - just like on the previous transmission under my mechanic's watch!
They try in test car again - no problems. My car - problems.
They said they had to make two changes (throttle valve or body and something else). They mentioned some combination of rear end + torque... ugh... I don't even know anymore.


I then said that they provided a factory bad transmission, knowing the details of my car, and still want me to surrender $$ owed. Their position is that a mechanic or owner needs to immediately stop when a problem occurs. I think everyone is right here... or all wrong.. I just want it done.


Somehow, my new t-stat has failed and my electric fan relay has burnt (spare me the lectures on that one today).
Car is over an hour away. Called a mechanic near the transmission folks who is going to pick up the car, do the t-stat and check out the fan wiring.


Might have my car back today.

I am not excited. Not even remotely happy. I've been so beaten up on this, financially, communication & logistics wise, etc... that there isn't any excitement to be found right now.
All I know is that, even if no new problems are found by the mechanic, me getting the car back means I'll find the next dozen issues.

Right now...
I don't trust the mechanic (that was involved till this point).
I don't trust the machine shop (that botched the rebuild).
I don't trust the transmission shop.

Hoping the car is at least safe, working well, etc.


All I keep wondering is...
Will I make it home or be waiting on the side of the road for a flatbed this evening?
Will it overheat?
Will the brakes be busted?
Will the A/C be broken?
Will the timing be severely off?
Will the transmission not behave?
Will there be damage to the engine somehow, yet again?
Will the tires be messed up?
Alignment?
etc.


It has a long-standing unscheduled appointment at the interior shop, among other things.


Man, I need some beers.

I feel your pain. These old cars take a lot of TLC and maintenence to keep them running well. And yes, lots of $$.

Just pretend you live in the upper midwest. Most of us have our cars tucked away for winter, and can't wait for spring when it will all be new again. (one could argue either way)

It will all work out. I'd recommend you check out some local car shows and start asking around about good mechanics. I was able to get the name of 'a friend of a friend of a friend' years ago and now can consider him 'my friend' after working on my cars a lot. He has done all of my E/T rebuilds, and after five years I've only had one small issue with something he did (which he fixed right away). So there are good people out there, you just need to find them via word of mouth.

Geez, I just read this thread from start to finish...what a total bummer for you. It would be nice to hear an update that everything is working great, but you'll more than likely find something along the way.

I don't mean to offend, and I'm sure there's a good reason for you taking your car to various service providers, but have you considered joining a car club, buying some books, and doing most of this work yourself?

My story is far from complete, but I'm a software development geek with precious little restoration experience. I bought my first Firebird about 7 months ago and plan to do as much in my garage as humanly possible. When that is impossible (for lack of proper machines), I have a semi-local Pontiac expert machinist that does discreet tasks (so far, a crank grind) but is not involved in removal/disassembly/cleaning/installation.

I spend a crapload of time reading these forums and searching for questions I have. I've posted several stupid questions in hindsight, but at the time they seemed super important.

There are at least 2 really good books out there for rebuilding Pontiac engines. They are both on my nightstand and I usually drift off to sleep with cam specifications going through my head.

There is only one car-club in my area (a pretty remote part of Cali) but that network is indispensable. I'm sure you have several in Tampa.

And finally, perhaps you have a friend who is a gear-head and lean on him/her for lots of little questions?

I guess I'm suggesting that nobody cares about your car as much as you do and, if you want it done right, do it yourself. Everything seems impossible at the start, but then you realize it's pretty much common-sense applied. And you'll love your car even more knowing that you've touched every square inch of it.

Anywho, I wish you the best of luck.

Tom! What a bummer you read it all
I picked up a couple Pontiac engine books, but don't really plan on doing anything more than gaining an understanding of the engine.

My patience and perfection vary, and my time is typically better used in other ways, so I do like to outsource annoying or significant tasks.




Latest update:

Had a new local mechanic up near Monster Transmissions pick the car up to check out the t-stat and electric fan relay. Oh boy...

T-stat side:
New t-stat and still poor water flow. I had strong water flow after switching to a 69 style water pump & TC cover, so this is a new mystery.

210 degrees (w/either new or old 180/185 t-stats) and the upper hose is still collapsable.... wtf? (verified with handheld temp reader in addition to water temp gauge)


On the electrical side:
Installed new fan relay & 30 amp fuse in-line - both melted in 10 minutes.
Mechanic discovered that the engine wasn't ground to the chassis, and all other grounds were ground to paint. He ran a new ground and ground paint away at other connection points.

Also found that the little power distro block was running on a 12g wire. He ran a separate 8g wire for the fans. (The pair draws 22amps)

Wires still heat up but do not get insanely hot.

New discoveries:
- Numerous coolant leaks along driver's side head. Not sure if it is gasket or head itself.

- Oil leak at sending unit.

- Drive shaft makes "clunk" at differential when downshifting or shifting to reverse.

- Removal of spark plug wire from any 7 of the plugs results in change in behavior. 1 of them does not.


This current mechanic suspects possible overheating during break-in under the hands of the mechanic that had my car until now (through both engine rebuilds, etc.).
That (prior) mechanic is a hot-tempered defensive redneck who just swears and points fingers, then says to have the car brought back to him. He blames the transmission people.
Naturally, the transmission people say they barely had the car on, only drove a few miles, and stopped at 210 degrees because they didn't know what the max was.

Redneck mechanic has warranty responsibilities - but I don't trust his work, the safety of his shop, etc.
The machine shop, if they didn't plane the head evenly, has warranty responsibilities as well. I do not trust them, either (they are the ones who killed the engine the second time).

If this is anything more than a gasket (for the coolant leak), I am at a loss as to what to do....
The transmission, engine rebuild, paint, bottom detailing, etc added up to $7200 - over budget by $3500.
Car has been gone for 172 days.


While some of these issues, especially if major and easily traceable, are warranty issues - I just don't trust anyone... and am hesitant to let my car spend days, weeks, months at those same shops over an hour from my house with people who have a bad track record and bad personalities.
On the other hand, I can't throw thousands at new shops trying to chase other people's faults.


I can't wait for this to all go away.

I was really hoping for a better update. If you were a lot closer I could set you up with a couple of people that are very trust worthy and I could help you with a lot of the smaller problems. There has to be someone on this sight that is near you that could steer you in the right direction for help. I hope things turn around quickly for you. Sorry for all of the problems that you are going through.

Dam, just keeps get'n worse.
To bad you have so much tied up with those places.
Aways done own assembly, but had to change machine shops 3 times do to incompetance.
Luckly found the guy who had worked at all 3 before i had problems.
Need 2 more engines built as $ trickles in. Hope to get machine work done before he retires.

One thing is for sure...this mechanic you were referred too doesn't know what the faaq he is doing. I don't care how mean of a redneck he is I'd go in there demand my money back and if he didn't oblige me I'd take his azz to court and when he doesn't show up or loses, he'll pay or I'd put a lien on his shop his house and any other property he owns...just think about what you could have gotten with that money if the job was done proper the first time...your interior would have been done 3 times over. Don't know if you have some type of bureau in Fla, but in Cali (although they are fairly powerless) I'd report him to the BAR as well.

Just my 2 cents.

I've made a difficult decision.


I am abandoning all warranty coverage from the mechanic and machine shop that have repeatedly damaged my vehicle.


Having the car towed to a local mechanic that will remove the heads and send them out to a machine shop that only does heads. At a minimum, a gasket is blown. Worse than that, maybe the heads are damaged - would like to investigate that possibility while the heads are off.

Water leaks down the side of my engine, out my exhaust, and one cyl doesn't even seem to fire.

Hopefully there was no severe overheating or hydrolock (which bends rods, etc.).

I think you have made the wise choice.

Painful, but wise.

Sorry your having so much trouble. Keep your receipts and try to get the "new" guys to comment on your engine issues on the work order explaining what they had to do to fix your engine as a result of the poor job done by the nutball. This is suitable evidence to bring to court should you want to.

BTW, it can be a challenge to re-install your heads while engine is in the car. Some of the head bolts could be difficult to torque. Is the transmission ok now?

If you have to pull the engine out again consider having the engine builder put engine on a test stand for testing etc so they can prove it works before you put it back in.

I would recommend you get a very experienced reputable Pontiac engine builder to complete your engine. It's never too late to get the job done right. Who knows what else could be waiting to break. And if you should decide to start a Lawsuit you have a much better chance of winning if you get it fixed by an unimpeachable engine builder.

my 2c anyway...

You know... No worries about trying to re-install the heads while the engine is in the car... because, today when I visited the car after it arrived at the new mechanic, I opened the hood and saw...


THE ENGINE IS THE WRONG F@!*#@!*ING COLOR!!!

AHHHHHH...


I bought the car with 1977 Pontiac Blue on the engine. I specifically had the engine pulled about 9 months ago JUST to paint the engine proper late 60's Pontiac blue, detail the compartment, etc.

Rebuild #1 happens with jerk mechanic - engine is painted appropriately.
Rebuild #2 jerk mechanic paints engine wrong [censored] color?!@!?? Are you kidding me?!?!
Rebuild #2 was block & rotating assembly... but I saw that he never sent out my water pump cover...
So even if the process discolored the engine block...
don't you think someone would freakin' notice that the color you're painting the engine doesn't match the correct color you painted the water pump cover a month ago!?!?!?




Wow. My mind is blown.




While we're at it... The new cam is crazy mild. Any recommendations on stepping it up a little bit??

My builder was kind enough to inform me when he needed the paint and I supplied it.

Then when I picked up - he went out of his way to point out some places where the paint I supplied was peeling a bit.

If you lived anywhere near the guy I used, I would have sent you to him.

Another unfortunate update.


Engine was turned over today.
BOTTOM END NOISE. AGAIN.

I give up. Completely. Starting from scratch.


Spoke with Danee at Ken's Speed in Brooksville, FL. I am thoroughly convinced that I should have sent my engine there to begin with. It is heading there next week.

I called the person that had originally had a less than perfect opinion about them - I must have misunderstood. He loved the quality of work, just not the turnaround time. So that clears up any concern there.


Ken is the man. They will have my engine in their hands soon.



18 weeks 5 days into this, $7200 into this engine & transmission project... 2 rebuilds, 2 transmissions, 3 torque converters, electrical system trouble... And I am just about no better off than when I started and might even have an unrepairable original engine.
Looking at $3500 to $6500 with Ken... and everyone is saying I shouldn't have gotten a Monster 200 4 R. Beautiful.



I can't wait for this to be done and over with!

Wow , What a run of bad luck! Hope things work out soon.

OMG. I have not been on the site for quite a while and just read your whole saga. what a nightmare... I think someone else did ask somewhere along the way why you have not considered assembling the engine yourself? Building one of these is not at all rocket science. Nobody will be as careful as you will with doing things right and there are lots of knowledgable advice out there (web and likely local). I would highly recommend joining a local car club and asking advice once there. Car folks are some of the most willing helpers there are. maybe my site might provide you with some ideas or help when you start your next build. I sure hope everything goes well. It sure can't get much worse..
http://www3.telus.net/68bird/index.htm
kelly r

If a machine shop & engine builder can't build it correctly, I do not have the confidence that I will do so.

Tomorrow it will arrive at Ken Keefer's pontiac machine shop in Brooksville. Should have an update in a week or so!

Good Luck, and I mean that!!!!!!!

Thanks

Time and money almost don't matter at this point... being so many thousands over budget and so many weeks beyond what could be possible...
I just want it done - really hoping the original block is workable!

Updates as I get them, of course!

Sorry to hear. I would be looking at making someone accountable

Tell me something...

Would *ANYTHING* surprise any of you at this point??


Initial report from Ken Keefer is back. Visual inspection, no magna flux yet.

- Prior mechanic LEFT A TUBE OF GASKET SEALANT in the engine!! Bolted into oil pan!
- Lower dipstick tube was not installed - dipstick broke off and got caught in the crank!!
- Crank was 30 under and scored up, trash.
- All cylinders, etc were scored
- Bearings were already to the copper
- Engine break-in had been attempted with synthetic oil

Waiting to hear back on the heads & magna flux.

Here are the tube and the dipstick tip:

by a so called "mechanic".....not good.

but nothing surprises me...as a 15 yr old I had a moped I had the transmission reworked by a shop...picking it up, it made noise shifting ,took it right back...they disassembled it...found that smallest (size 00) cresent wrench inside the transmission!

If you can get that in writing you could get some kind compensation for the rebuild

WOW! At least your on the right track now, fingers crossed