Newbie... sorry if I'm in the wrong spot, but I need some advice. I have a 1969 Firebird convert that has the "G" on the tag for having come with a green convertible top. I've been searching for some documentation on how many green top first gen birds had colored tops, breaking them out by number/color/year. Has anyone come across this? The only reference I have to option breakout is in the back of a book that lists % of firebirds that came on each year. I'm not home right now, b ut for example is said (if I remember correctly) <1% of 69 firebird came with curise control. Anyone have any idea? Thanks, Greg.

There is no production breakdown for color options.

Be very leery of any published breakdowns for first gen Firebirds. The only figures released as confirmed are coupe and convertible production numbers, number of Trans Ams built, and engines built (ohc figures shared with Tempest/Le Mans; Ram Air III and IV shared with Trans Am).

Most other published figures are extrapolated from this data using best-guess technique. Until/unless all the PHS billing histories are entered into a database and sorted by model and year, there may never be accurate breakdowns of any option, including color.

Thanks. I haven't entered this car into a registry, but I'd guess a registry would have this data of the converts in it since it's part of the body tag data.

I should have ordered the PHS docs for this car a long time ago, b ut never did. It came in Champagne aith a green interior and green top. When I bought it (10 years ago for $6500) it had a black interior (green dyed) and a black top. I changed the interior to white and the top to white, and I was going to paint it dark green. Now I find out it was an odd duck in that came with a green top, so now I have to change the interior back to green and the top to green before I paint it.

Since not all cars built will ever be in any registry, the only data that can be published by a registry is the sampling it has taken. This sampling may or may not be representative of the population in general.

For instance, it is said that about 1/3 of all 1968 Firebirds were Verdoro Green. Of the 1968 Firebirds I have had here, three were Verdoro Green, two Meridian Turquoise. Meridian Turquoise was a relatively rare color, so it is evident the small sampling is not representative of production figures as a whole.

My '67 was Coronado Gold, a rare spring color, and my '69 is Goldenrod Yellow, a special order uncommon color.

Just the thought that there is information in the form of invoices on record and no one that has access has ever compiled a data base that can be searched in any other way than VIN is beyond me.

I don't believe the database can be searched by VIN. I think the microfiche are in order, and searches made manually. Not certain, though.

I have always thought that a database would be the logical solution.

Vikki is correct about the microfiche. Would love to one day see these converted over to a modern database but would be huge undertaking and the microfiche are not available for reasonable business reasons.

The registry is not a valid sample as it depends on people to enter data, enter it correctly, and then for me to properly code the data retrieval. The last I need to work on while maintaining confidentiality of identifiable information (ie VIN). If I only had more time in the week as I have been promising it for awhile now.

See posts moved here.

I can't help you directly, but I did the paint breakdowns for Camaros. Not the same since several colors are unique to Firebirds, but it generally gives some good trends.
http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages

I have some data for F-birds but it's small. Nothing to hang your hat on, but it shows that 72 and 73 were about the same (~11%), which is really close to the numbers for 57 and 72 for Camaros.
76 is running about 5%.

Doing a database is a lot of work. I manage the one for CRG and it's at 15,000 cars. The logistics for entering that much data is mind boggling. And it's a 10MB Excel file...

Champagne is a rare color. I've only actually seen it on a full-size car in a junkyard!

Champagne is a little more frequently seen in Firebirds. I'v only seen one Linden Green, though.

how many you think were yellow?

I know of 5 original Goldenrod Yellow '69s, one yellow '68.

yeah...i got one of 5...is that just convertibles or coupes also?

Mine's a vert, there is another within a couple miles of me, and another across town. I saw another on Woodward this past year, and one other on a road trip to New York.

All convertibles.

Plus I've seen a few on eBay with the Goldenrod Yellow code.

all with black interior?

Two with parchment, 3 with black

whoa...another with parchment...cool haven't seen many like mine, only one other yellow,parcment 207 and a white top.

HOW DO I POST A NEW TOPIC IN THIS SECTION????

WHERE IS THE REGISTRY??? IS THE SITE DOWN??

I'm researching my 69 Bird. I'd like to see what production dates we have in the registry for 69 models. Earliest and latest.

Please help me!!!!

Thanks,
Ron

It looks like the "Research" section does not allow new topics, but you can start a new topic in the "Ramblings and Chatter" section.

My understanding is the site allows uploading, but the data has not yet been compiled.

You might try to send a message or email direct to this site's owner, Geoff Martin, but be advised he is an infrequent visitor, who is likely very overwhelmed with his day job and family- (as we all are). The only other repository of information is PHS documentation, but that is privately owned and no data analysis is available other than for your own vehicle. Try using the "search" function on the forums here, as well as the "Frequently asked Questions" section. You may be able to find when Pontiac ran its 1969 production. I do know it was late- as many refer to '69 as 69 & 1/2

Hope that helps. and welcome to the site!

Production dates in general, or for a particular plant?

223379L100001 had a production date of 08A.

I,m trying to fined out if my motor is correct to the car.

Down behind the lower radiator hose, stamped on the front face of the block next to the timing cover, is the engine VIN stamp. The last 8 digits should match the last 8 of the dash VIN tag.

Thanks for the info. I ordered the PHS docs for this car and found out it's a 350HO. Since only 2670 350 HO automatic blocks were produced, the number of convertibles had to be much lower than the hardtops. Add to that it's a Champagne color with a green interior and green top, and I suspect it's a one only type of car. Why doesn't PHS produce he numbers like Ford's "Martini" does? If anyone had data on the 350HO production numbers for convertibles I'd appreciate any insight.

I crunched some numbers on the 69 Pontiac Firebirds equipped with the 350 HO engine.

Total production Hardtops = 75362
Total production Convertible = 11649
% convertible = 15.5%

Total 350 HO manual WN engines = 2455
Total 350 HO auto XC engines = 2670
% for each is about 3%, so a total production of 6% were 350HO.

Assuming the 350HO was produced in same ratio of 15.5% in the convertibles, that would come out to 686 total 350HO 69 convertibles.

When the ratio of 69 Trans Am's in Hardtop (689) vs. convertible (8) is broken down, only 1.1% were converts.

If the Trans AM 1.1% convertible ratio is used, the total 350HO production would be 59 converts with the 350HO. Assuming this curve wouldn't be linear, it makes the 112 350 HO convertible number believable.

I've seen the 112 total 350 HO convertible number on the web and that is was verified by PHS, but I've not seen this published anywhere. If anyone can verify this I'd appreciate it.

2 cents - Assuming the higher performance engine would reduce the number of convertibles, then the total production for 400 convertible cars would reflect this. Does anyone have the total number of 69 Firebird convertibles produced with either the 400 or 400HO broken down?

I also found the number of Lemans/Tempest 350HO auto XU engines produced was 2800, but I can't verify this, nor do I know how many manual WV engines were produced. If anyone has these numbers I'd appreciate them.

Anytime you start combining option %'s, you're making guesses.
And I think you're going the wrong way - I'd say more than 6% convertibles since it's a lower hp engine.

I don't understand why you mean by a lower hp engine. You have the base 6, 6 Sprint, 350, 350HO, 400, 400 HO and RAIV. I am making guesses because I don't have the data, but the logic assumes convertibles would be less likely to be ordered with a higher HP engine.

The total of 112 69 Firebirds with the 350HO is floating around the web and it originated from West Peterson (Editor of Antique Automobile), but the link is now dead.

Most L6 cars weren't convertibles. So that leaves 350 and 350HO as the volume convertibles.

What data are you using?

Production totals.
No matter what, any combo of options is a WAG.

The only production totals known is the number of engines built and the number of hardtop vs. convertibles. When you said, "Most L6 cars weren't convertibles. So that leaves 350 and 350HO as the volume convertibles", this is an opinion and not supported by any released data I know of.

Anything other than high level numbers are a guess. Unless PHS and crew have gone through every record and categorized them. It would take forever but would be much closer to definitive than the X% were this and X% were that so maybe X number of cars were optioned this way methodology that is used.

My WAG is that you will see a lot of clustering, similar options chosen on many cars.

No, I'm extrapolating from Camaro data. Production data on Camaro L6 cars is available and I also have data on almost 20,000 cars, so it's not a huge leap....

Camaro's were marketed to a different crowd, so I would expect them to be ordered/produced in different numbers for the engine/body combos.

I have Firebird data too. And I guestimated to compensate for that.
But I *am* using data to support what I'm saying.

OK, I'll ask - so how many L6 Firebird convertibles have you seen?
How many 350 Firebird convertibles?
And 400 Firebird convertibles?

My data shows the L6's being pretty uncommon - well under 10%.
Problem is the 400's show up on ebay more since they are more desirable. Which skews perception and data.

I also think the data gets skewed as the years pass. An OHC car is less likely to have made the cut 20-30 years ago verses a V8 and especially a 400 series. It simply went to the wrecking yard. However, I am not sure that was the case the day they were built. Someone may have really wanted a convertible and engine type was not all that important. To save money, they opted for the OHC. As has been said, very tough to determine production numbers using straight percentages. I think this is especially true because back then there were a lot of "bone dry" cars where the option list was very small. Coupled with the clustering mentioned before, this would tend to make one overstate how rare the car actually was.

Newbie, would like to know where to find the PHS and to register it? ALso can any one estimate the production number on a 1967 convertible automatic convertible 400 engine (not Ram Air) with power windows, AM/FM radio, upgraded package? Thanks. I dont think there are many automatics. Thanks

Is PHS similar to the build sheet?

PHS

I believe they provide estimates these days on number of similar cars built (a la Marti reports) due to the competition and based on the information they have,

HOWEVER, realize that this is a small office putting data manually off of microfiche.

Yes, PHS docs are similar to build sheet but less detailed. At least they cover all the options chosen for a particular vehicle - NOT every component installed.