Other thread was getting long and as this car was relisted figured it was worth starting again. This time car is offered at no reserve so we will see just what a RARE non-numbers matching car will sell for

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-400-HO-/262493032887?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3d1dcdd1b7:g:qUoAAOSwKfVXDpWr&item=262493032887

I believe the price was in the 18k ballpark...

I'd say with no reserve and absence of shill bidding...it will sell in the 11 to 13k arena.

A well educated buyer will see through the hype and accept the car as a 400 vertical with a low performance 350 or 400 run of the mill engine. If that bird had a list of rare options...power windows..power disc, power seat, powe top...with hood tach, rally gauges, am/fm, rear antenna, 8 track, multiplex, posi 3.55 or 3.90.. .and a rare color combo, would the car be a potential candidate for higher than 13k AND a gamble for a NOM WQ block transplant...

I have the correct carb, manifolds and distributor for a 4 speed 68 HO if someone buys it. 😆

$13,000 and only two days of bidding in.

I know some people will say these bidders are ignorant because their bidding on a car that can never be numbers matching, but those people are a tiny minority of buyers, I believe the general car enthusiast is the person who drives up the price in this market!

They want something they bid on it! People paying over 75k for restomods don't care that the car isn't original!

You do realize that you can now build one of these cars complete out of aftermarket sheet metal. Body and all.

I just found a rust free 400 power top vert in Clovis NM...no engine..has original 3.55 POSI and 4 speed... $7500.

Some people are really funny...they'd do and say anything to justify a purchase that should have cost them 3x less.

But hey...that's what the uninformed and uneducated do...a fool and his money..

Yeah, this isn't like a crazy high demand car like a 1970 CHEVELLE SS LS6 that can still pull good money without the original motor.

I don't think there's much value added with the "HO" considering the special thing about the HO was the motor, but it doesn't have the motor anymore.

Yeah I've seen lots of cars listed "rust free" and most of the time that means that the "rust" comes with the car for "free"
not to mention $7500 for a car with no motor, not driving, and no idea of the other problems doesn't sound like a deal to me. compared to this car that is running and driving, but that isn't the debate.

Exactly
Watch out for cars in primer and freshly painted cars.

Anyone else find it odd that one week this car couldn't push 9k...and now it's at 14?

Car dealers are notorious for shill bidding.

Do not be surprised if you see the car listed a third time after Tuesday.

Actually the car got to $17000 the last time it was listed if you check out the previous link

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-400-HO-/262392348931

so maybe there will be a battle in the final minutes to push this to 17k again. A number I'm sure people will say how stupid the buyers are for paying that for a car not complete, only proving my point that the market determines price not the value a Pontiac specialists puts on it but the number someone will pay.

Who says a Ram Air Firebird is worth $80k, not the Pontiac specialist but the person cutting the check

OK, I was in error..

However it may be...the Firebird, for all intents, without the nomenclature to make it an HO, is not worth any more than if the car was a 400 without it's original engine.

As was stated prior, this isn't a 1 of 7, 1 of 100, 1 of 300...it is a 1 of 1600 +/-. What IS driving the price is simple...it is a decent convertible with a non numbers 350-400 with a decent interior. Agreed that a 400 4 speed vert is a rarity that I would say may have numbered in the 40-80 arena, but it was an option that added a paltry 10 HP (advertised) and again, not in the realm of a true powerplant upgrade as say a 442, W-30, LS6-7. An instance...if a Hemi Cuda vert had the same 426 engine with 4 speed...and 2 engines were available, and the higher output engine was missing, the car would command much more. Why? The engine series alone is what made the difference...Here with the HO 400, there was not much fanfare or performance per se. The 400 HO was not a 426 Hemi...nor was it an LS7 454...or a 428 Cobra Jet.

Now if this HO was a RAI or II, then you would be picking an apple from the same tree.

There are several examples Firebirds exhibiting most of the same criteria for this price.

Yet, the true kicker is the fact it is a 4 speed POWER top vert with a body broadcast sheet...that is what truly is pushing the price. Now add rally gauges, hood tach, console, clock, with deluxe interior...and it is a very nice package, notwithstanding, it appears to be solid underneath and that for all intents, is the driving factor...and not the "HO" appeal. One can not simply find a 400 4 speed vert with a power top in decent condition...the missing "HO" factor is a non appreciable bonus to sell the car, not specifically value per say.

Any potential bidder with some knowledge would understand that finding a WQ block is nearly impossible, then to locate a 8271 carb, 449 distributor and then...the manifolds, well, you'd still have a non original HO worth maybe...10-15% more than a 400 and 40% less than a true numbers matching 400 4 speed vert. What would benefit the attempt of an HO "tribute"? Having all of the missing HO parts and subsequent block...dated within a 4 to 6 week period.

So...in closing, albeit an HO, the addition of a non original motor would essentially be deemed a clone..

The bidder with a 1124 feedback...is a shill bidder. He has multiple bid retractions and running up bids in several other auctions, other than this one....So in reality, the selling price we see here is not by any means a fair and accurate assessment of actual worth...or value.

Bidder with a 227 feedback shill bidder..bidder with 609 feedback...shill bidder...with 6 bid retractions, 2 with the seller of the HO. So whatever this car sells for is not an actual value.

I got bid up on a car Iike this. I found where the seller had bought it elsewhere and the price he paid. With shipping, I still paid $1,000 less than he did. Did I pay too much for it? Probably, but I still was in it for less than he was.

I should clarify, the top bidder on the car did not purchase the vehicle. It was offered to me at my highest bid.

I am not sure why you are so convinced about the shill bidding ,and how besides being an expert on pricing non numbers matching cars it seems detecting shill bidding is anther of your fields of expertise. To me though the bidder in question has over 1100 positive feedback and only 2 retracted bids. I have over 300 and I also have two retracted bids and I have never been a shill bidder, that I know of, but maybe someone who specializes in that field can double check because by your reasoning I am one!

If this guy doesn't relist because the buyer doesn't have the money or his wife says no (common reasons mentioned in relisting) because this happens a lot when selling on ebay. This gives a realistic value on these cars. And shows people want them because unless someone finds an underground bunker filled with a 1000 firebirds somewhere the number available on the planet will only get smaller! My advice: want one? Buy one! because soon you wont get anything nice numbers match or not!

Also someone please contact Harrold and inform him my car needs to be removed from the "HO" registry

I also need to find out whom to contact at the Pontiac Historical Society and inform them that the docs. they sent me are wrong because they say I have and "HO" car

I am an expert...thank you for clarifying.

It does not take rocket science...but common sense to read between the lines...this car has been listed 6 times since last year...all with the SAME result.

It's called COMMON SENSE....taking all of the available info, ponder and extract and considering I have been in the detective/investigator/lying detection/fraud and law enforcement field since 1988......that has a knack....a skill for seeing things others can't, refuse/don't want to see...coupled with the fact I have owned 16 67-68 Firebirds coupled with the fact I do a lot of buying on Ebay....qualifies me to have an opinion of shill bidding. And it is my opinion based on what I see.

What makes an HO an HO?

If what was left was a majority, or 50.1%, could you call it an HO. On it's face, there is NO evidence other than PHS that states it's an HO...and that, it's only the engine...there are specific part numbers that made an HO an HO...carb #, manifolds and distributor...to a lesser extent, radiator.

If a car is called "F" and "F" has a special package that is called "X". "X" consists of special parts A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H...and is missing A-H. Intents and clarification, .A-H are drive train parts. If a person can not tell from the exterior appearance the difference between a 400 and a 400 HO and missing all the parts, is it an HO?

Lets say an HO package consisted of more than just manifolds, cam, carb, distributor.fan..The HO shares roughly mid 90% of the same part numbers,including the block, heads, intake as any 400. The block is the exact same as any other 400 block, nothing special. same as the heads, intake, alternator, water pump...nothing special.

Part numbers that are HO specific?

Fan, exhaust manifolds..carb..to a lesser, UQ radiator..

It is not a 4 bolt block, same block casting, material content and manufacture as any other 400 block.
It is not a different manifold as any other 400
It is not a different transmission (shared with any other 400)
It is not have different heads than any 400
Same distributor as any other 400

So is an HO an HO based on born with or "paper" documentation if all said parts saying it's an HO are missing? Is it an HO if the missing parts are replaced with non originals? Or is it only an HO if it retains it's number correct VIN and EUN stamped engine, and VIN stamped trans?

What makes an HO an HO?

My opinion is that if man creates a product for a specific purpose...or intent, and the purpose or intent is absent, relegating it to be the same or similar to any other, that the true intent of the product is now void. The product is now the same as any other. The specific intent of the HO was a step above a 400, albeit minimal, to a 400.

Assume PHS did not exist and Jim didn't have the microfiche. How would you be able to determine a 400, 400 HO or Ram Air apart if the original drive train was missing? Why do you think at one point there were more first gen Z/28 SS RS/SS Camaro's than were produced.

A debate is just that which was initially asked. My opinion was and will remain....this car, absent original or HO specific parts is only an HO on paper. To call it an HO is based on just that...paper.

Guess I'm confused regarding your comments for HO registration. In 2013 Harold B brought a 1968 vert with some questions and advice from this site (No disrespect to Harold B but sticking with the premise) you can see his posts if you are a member (which I assume you are). The Harold B 1968 Is NOM engine vert. Harold does obtain the PHS and finds it "was a HO 4 spd. He sources a WZ block (coded 400 4spd but not WQ HO 4 spd block) for his rebuild, and, it qualifies as a 400 HO car? And he now registers the 1968 HO cars?

Guess it fits your cars pedigree but I side with Banshee regarding what brings the "true value" with these born-with vehicles as in "original" drive-train. Check out Banshee's posts and you will see that he has a 1968 HO coupe that fits the true definition. The period correct cars are nice to see back in action (as well as the resto-mods I guess) and the owners that spend the $$ and time to restore should be complemented for their efforts (lots of engines and drive trains were blown up back in the day) but if the #'s are not matching, for the performance level that it was intended to be, It is a tribute or a clone.

The vin or the firewall tag do not make a HO an HO, the engine and drive train do (Although, I would give a proper coded period correct WQ coded HO a pass with the correct intake and exhaust manifolds, and carb).

Good luck with your justification for your car but when you go to sell, a studied buyer will see exactly what they are purchasing.

KTB

Guys...who cares about the HO car when it doesn't have the correct motor!

Ahem, I do have the correct Dated WQ block, manifold, heads and even the correct oil pan, so good for me I guess.
But when it comes to having the correct numbers match, the way I understand it, 1968 is the first year this could even be done.

1967 and before cars had numbers to identify when they were made and what cars they were in but had no numbers proving they are in the right cars. So anyone with these cars could claim numbers match by just having a correct block an no one would know the better. Darn these manufactures for know how much you guys would care about the EUN.

Also for all you know it alls and jealous people the block wasn't the only identifier of the HO series there was an "HO" stripe so don't tell me it was just the block that Identified it because you are wrong!

HO stripes were only on the 350 HO cars. Not on the 400 HOs.

Wouldn't that be called a rally stripe on a 400 car?

The HO stripe had an "HO" on it. I suspect the rally stripe was just a stripe.

Who cares if the woman you are dating has a penis.

To some people everything.

Why do some people choose hideous screen names?

Why do some people choose a complete idiot for a president?

Free will...

Just as people choose a 67 over a 68 or 69...a 400 over a Cammer...

Choice!

That is why it matters.

Choice

Acenho, actually if you look at the PHS on a pre '68 car, there is an engine number listed, and that number is stamped on the right front side of the block. That is what gives you matching numbers before 1968. I had a "matching numbers '67 400 that I wish I still had....

So, I will disagree. A 400 HO car missing it's original drivetrain to me is still a 400 HO car. Just worth significantly less than one with it's correct/original drivetrain. Using as correct as possible parts would redeem some of it's value, but it would never be worth as much as an original 400 HO with all its born with equipment. Putting a Chebby LS1 in it doesn't turn it into a Camaro does it?

Winning bid was $15,000.
I wonder if/when we might see it listed again...
Cal

IMO,
If the PHS docs say it's an HO car and you can prove with reasonable evidence that it is a 400HO then it's a 400HO. However, 400HO cars that are missing one or many of the major components that come with a 400HO are with progressively less with each missing part.

Here is a list of relevant 400HO parts (might be missing some):
400HO engine (serial no. verification against PHS doc)
Chrome air cleaner top, valve covers, oil filler cap
carb, distributor, intake, LBM's, alternator
transmission (verified no. to PHS docs)
rear end (date code and axle code)
HEADS! They are 16's (only come on a 68 400HO)

With that said, I believe Harold has a 400HO car with a very close engine. The exact same car with the correct engine should get better $$'s, but they would also have be restored with the same care and attn to detail that Harold has done with his car. It may be harder to find many Firebirds in better restored condition.

And besides...Harold is a 2nd amendment dude ... don't [censored] with him! ... lol

Nearly every 1968 400 came with #16 heads...

Correct

I suppose the operative word here is "Nearly".

Almost every head ID site you go to shows that the YT 330hp 400's came with EITHER 16 or 62 heads. And, most sites seem to indicate that some other '68 Bird engines may also have come with both head numbers.

I suppose it might be possible that they ran out of 16 heads before the '68 model year was over, and began using the 62 heads. I have no idea if this is true or not. Some sites show that the 16 heads were used on some '69 engines. Other sites seem to indicate that the only 16 heads used after '68 were the small valve version, and the SD455 heads. Again, I don't have a clue as to what the actual truth is. ???

http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginesearch4.htm

http://ronspontiacpage.com/reference-pages/stockheadspecs.htm

http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2009/12/1967--68-Pontiac-Firebird-400/2534411.html

http://pontiachunters.com/pontiac_cylinder_heads.shtml

http://www.bassettracing.cz28.com/custom3.html

I think it is common knowledge that most every Pontiac engine ID site has mistakes. It has also been proven that there were lots of things done on the Pontiac assembly lines that were not supposed to have been done. I figure that the wrong parts were used many times, when the correct parts were not available, in order to finish building the car.

Never seen 62's on a factory 1968 engine but the small valve #16 did come on 1969 A body cars.

Only seen 62's on full size cars with A/C.
Not say'n seen all of them...

General generality...

400 67's came with 670 heads...Ram ari 97/997

Standard 400's for 68 came with 16 heads. #31 were RAI...96 were round port.

1969 #16 heads standard trans...62's Auto/A/C, 48 Heads RAIII (16/62 auto RAIII).. 722 RAIV

All were 2.11/1.77 large valve screw in studs.

IIRC 97/997 96 and 722 had longer valves..and negligibly thicker stem.