http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-400-HO-/262392348931?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3d17cd8103:g:qUoAAOSwKfVXDpWr&item=262392348931

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Firebird-400-HO-/262392348931

Looks like a nice project. Too bad about the engine.

Agreed, not to many of those around! Looks pretty solid from the pics.

I posted mainly to get a feel for its value and peoples opinion on working on a car of that rarity without the numbers motor. Bascially this is identical to the car I bought just a couple years ago, so I can get an idea of change in value and demand. Honestly I believe mine is much more solid but it is very similar otherwise.

There was a verdoro 69 400 HO vert with a 4sp, air and some other accessories that went for 60,500 at Barret Jackson Scottsdale 2016. If I remember correct, it did not have the original engine in it either. There is a thread on it over at PY as well.

There was a 69 400 HO 4sp vert on ebay that sold for $55k.

Is the 68 HO on ebay on Harolds website?? Keep it updated if not??

A 400 HO without the original motor, manifolds and carb is not a 400 HO. That engine is a 350 HO or a low compression 400 block circa early 70's. To advertise a car otherwise is seller hype and buyer ignorance.

engine is a 67 326 HO, 68 or 69 350 HO motor.

Most FB cars I have seen sell without original motor and trans, only bring about 50% of value of car as if it had the original
engine

I think the proper way to advertise a car like this would be "400 HO Firebird " It really is a 400 HO car as listed on the PHS, but is missing the HO motor.
As far as the seller- it is a free America and they can advertise as they choose- right or wrong, if they disclose the motor as not numbers matching, I don't see the harm.
As far as the buyer- you should always do your homework if you want a numbers matching car. Or hire someone to check it out for you.

If I were selling it, I would list it as a *68 Firebird. In the accompanying narrative I would explain that it began as a 400 HO but no longer had the original engine.
But that is just me,
Cal

I also believe that the model and trim that a car was when it was ordered is what the vehicle is. If a part or some of it is missing 40 years later it is still the same model it just is missing the parts that it originally born with. Names like "
GT" or "SRT" etc have been used for years to identify higher optioned vehicles, just because a part of them has been removed doesn't make them a lesser trimmed package.

I have seen hundreds of birds on ebay and on here identified as "400" because they have a 400 block and snorkel hood but described as originally a "350" with engine swap. Its the same thing it was never a "400" car. This is an HO car just not numbers matched. You still have a chance to make this an original car if you got lucky and found the correct motor. The guy with the "350" car could never make his a true "400" car. This is the difference!

Not in agreement with this statement. There are plenty of folks using the term "correct" or "period correct" which does not make it an "original, born with" car. If you don't have one or all of the # match drive train, it should be called out as an non-numbers match, even though period correct, and yes this does take away of the value. Parts that wear out (starters, alternators, shocks, batteries, brake components, etc) get a pass if they are period correct repops in my opinion.

For your car, I'd present as a a 68 vert HO (which it is) w/ a correct (if block date codes correlate with the vehicles production) NOM (non-matching motor) which is an honest statement, if the aforementioned production date is verified. Stating that it the motor is correct implies period-correct which is a miss-guided and deceiving statement to the term "original". You always have a chance to state "original, born with drive train" if you find the original # match block/motor and all the other components #'s match (good luck with that journey) . If outer drive train parts are non # match, they too should be called out as such.

Just my$0.02.,

KTB-

An HO car missing all of the requisites to make it an HO..does not make it an HO..you could go as far as implying that if the engine AND all HO parts are absent...it's not even a 400 car.

What intrinsic value is attached to a car sale whereas seller states it's a 400 HO missing the engine? Absolutely NONE!

So what if ts WAS a 400 HO car...it doesn't have anything other than a VIN and PHS stating it once was...with that, holds absolutely no more value than any other 400 car.

One will argue that a RA car missing the drive train isn't worth more than an HO or 400. Essentially it isnt...the value attached is agreed upon by the buyer who wants it...and the seller who overpaid for a pedigree that will likely never be achieved.

I agree with Kevin and Banshee completely. There was a huge online argument over on PY last summer with a guy who was "building" a 'numbers matching' 400 convertible. He kept interchanging "numbers matching", "born with" and "numbers correct" terminology. I kept calling him out stating that those were three completely different terms. He insisted those terms all meant exactly the same thing.

The thread got quite heated, and ultimately he was banned from the site. (he liked to use naughty words a lot)

I know he was still selling cars after the fact on Epay, still interchanging that terminology.

Sigh.

BTW, I think what acenho meant by his 'lucky' statement was that you found the original, born-with, engine. I didn't take it as finding a block with the correct part number on it. But I could see it interpreted either way.

I'm fairly certain that gentleman is still posting over there.

That's one word I definitely would not use to describe him!

Moron is more like it.

Chew on this for awhile...flows along the same blurred lines discussed at present.

A guy I know.....Paid $41,000 for a Ram Air 1 body with the original 3.90 rear, missing the engine and M-21. His intent was to find a RA1 or 2 engine, date code correct M-21 and build the car.

I asked him why..

He retorts, why not?

I stated, why are you spending $41k for a body that you could have had for $12-15k (assuming that per his intent was ONLY to build a non original Ram Air Firebird) another 2k for the rear...and you will still have to find the (A) RA 1 or 2 engine, AND a date coded M-21..

His reply?

Well the body has the correct dated 3.90 rear...

My reply was dumbfounded and fraught with disdain...I said, you are paying 30k more for a PHS documented RA1 car to make it, according to you, a non original ram air car with no intent to find the original engine? Again I state that a 400 roller would have sufficed more than adequately...and that you wasted 30k for what? A freaking 3.90 rear and PHS and a VIN?

This is my point...his personal intent has been stated, yes it is his money...but the cost/benefit ratio as with the 400 HO non original motor goes hand-in hand. Had he a line on the engine and trans AND had the car, would such a venture make some semblance of sanity.

Yes, it is his money, their money, your money...once a car is devoid of the nomenclature of what it is, said car is deplete of it's pedigree. buying a RA car or HO car for 2-3 x what it is worth, sans drive train, makes no arguable sense....any way you wish to argue.

And just so I am clear here...a 2506 cast/stamped RA block..31 heads, carb, manifolds, crank, RA specific items.....pieced together, he would be looking at $12-15k...RAII, upwards of 25k...just for the engine.

Now factoring in the resto costs, lets play with $15k for that...add in 41k for the car, 15k for the engine...2k for an M-21..

$73k

When all said and done, the value of it, when done, 0 miles...$48-55k.

Now think on terms of an HO with non original engine and trans...do the same thing..you'd be lucky to get half of what you paid to restore as it's only an HO.

Yes, you are doing something you love, it's fun to collect and piece on your time and your dime...but realistically, it's better to find the whole enchilada..

It isn't always easy to find that enchilada.

I like enchiladas.

...now I'm hungry!

Dang!

You guys....you guys..

I understand that everyone has their reasons...for buying a muscle car replete with all of its born with trimmings..albeit in pieces, covered in 30 years of weathered grime...to be born again with lots of TLC, money, time, cases of beer, expenditures beyond reason...then others do not mind overpaying for a base to build the ultimate Firebird...Which to me would be any Ram Air Firebird (sans Trans Am).

I thought about this awhile over the last few hours and would say the ONLY Firebird I would ever entertain building such as my friend is in process of restoring would be the 65 1967 Firebirds with the coveted 997 heads. In 2005 ish, at the Detroit Autorama, I spoke with Jim Mattison for awhile about one of the 65 he knew of and I was in serious talks about grabbing it. Though as described, and subsequently seen through pics, the condition of the body was frightening. Though the 67 was reported to have the original rear, that is all it had. Any other 400 Firebird in that condition would have fetched 5 to 6 times less for what it was.

Then came my reality...finding the 997 heads, block, manifolds, carb...within a specific date range..or at least find a correct cast block AND then find a set of 997 heads...close to that block date OR replicate a set of 670's (machining down pads for taller springs, grinding down the 6&0 and stamping the 99 or finding the holy grail, as-cast 997 heads) I have only come across 2 sets of early RA heads..one pair was a set of correct ground-restamp 670's and another was through Garlanka (Kris) here on the board. I believe those heads alone were $4500..

Would it have been fun? Absolutely?

Would this be a challenge, consuming hundreds of hours just to find the 997 heads, carb and block? Absolutely!

Would restoring a 1 of 65 make sense on a personal level restoring a 1 of 65 car for myself? You bet.

Would it have, on a financial level, been a wise choice? No! Unless building AND keeping such a car for myself, spending what I estimated roughly $25-30k just to correct the body, shell, restore the interior, trim, glass..using ONLY NOS parts...Then the additional expense of the engine and trans, not to mention, finding correct, used Ram Air pans... I would have been in the 100k neighborhood, no doubt.

I rant and expound...been there, done that...part of what makes restoring cars is experience, successes and failures. I myself like my money, work hard for it. However, if you have disposable income, go for it..

The other way to look at it is you will spend $40k- $50k for a new car which looses $10k of value the second you drive it off the lot plus the amount of added interest if you have a loan.
A first generation bird will hopefully increase in value.

Agreed...however, restoring a completely disassembled but complete HO or Ram Air will command a 40-50% higher value and command more interest and the likelyhood one will find a buyer. Piecing together separate components to build a non original HO or Ram Air will not...Unless a seller (as was shown in the OP) creatively words an ad hoping to find an unsuspecting buyer who knows jack **** about the cars and has more money to burn than sense.

I know these cars will increase in value...hell, even people buying hacked up "resale red" repainted Firebirds for 30k with unoriginal engines and transmissions helps everyone's value as a whole...It also hurts it as it sets a benchmark for those of us who have numbers matching cars in unrestored condition, the same condition or better...as buyers will say...why should I pay you $15k more for a complete, original 400 4 speed...when I can have a restored car for 30k and for the most part, these guys are not concerned if the drivetrain is correct....

It's a double edged sword.

I'm glad this debate still goes on as it helps me decide my end game, but between the increasing number of restomods and tribute cars being built and sold I feel the market for the "driver" and not the investor are going down two different paths.

For example just slapping a "judge" sticker on the side of a GTO and calling it a tribute car with the only true documentation being that the car was "born" a 69 GTO still has an interested buyers market. What if that same tribute car was a documented "judge" but the drivetrain did not match? Still rare, valueless? I think not!

documented 68 firebird 400 convertible still driving and on the road not rusted apart, still rare and valuable. 68 firebird 400 HO convertible with correct non-numbers matched drivetrain, very rare and more valuable. 68 400 HO convertible numbers matching, rarest and most valuable of the group!

collector cars and car parts are like gold sometimes. Buy it now and hold on to it for sometime and someone will always want to buy it from you for more than you spent. A collector car you may have spent too much on is not going to flip when you finish it and then make you a bunch of money on it. If this is what you think lay off the reality TV shows. But build it now, enjoy it and read this thread 10 years from now and you might find yourself saying I wish I bought that back then when it was cheap or even obtainable.

In two years of looking I still have only seen one WQ block for sale on the internet, that makes that RARE! How many will you find 10 years form now my guess will be NONE!

Buy it because you love it, not because you want money from it!

Again I'm more passionate because I am in the position of owning this type of car and took the risk, those against are the ones who haven't and are speculating that they have no value because the didn't have the stones of the foresight to take the chance. Think I made a mistake, great, maybe your right, but only time will tell and I believe rarity will win down the road and that was the gamble I was willing to take

thews - still posting

Exactly
Plus they drive much better than the Chevy version.

And still insisting that code correct non-original drivetrain is numbers matching.