I am unsure how to proceed with painting mine. As stated, I suck at bodywork and painting. I have so much mechanical work to do that paint is far in the future. But I remember when I was still working I watched an old guy I know do the bodywork on his 1983 Malibu. Every nice day he would use his lunch hour to do a little body work, then sand, and primer. He took his time and was very good at getting it smooth. Then when he was done he took it to MACCO and told them to 'do the bodywork' then paint it a nice chocolate brown metallic. He explained that he was not as good as a real body-man and they would find his mistakes. But by doing the grunt work they could concentrate on making it perfect. They did a really fantastic job and the paint was just beautiful. He saved a TON of money by doing the time consuming stuff. The MACCO painter saw the work he had put into the car and gave him a flawless paint job. I think it was a base-coat/clear-coat. Sounds like a plan.
Up at 330 work by 430-1. I get a few hours before the wife gets off at 5. Eat dinner with her, back to the shop around 7 till 9 or 10. Until I hit the wall and have to sleep for 24 hours. But thanks for the compliment. Honestly don't know where I would be without all your help. Ty sir
I just noticed you have AC on that car. That is getting super hard to find so you are way ahead by having it in place. Are you competent with AC work? I used to yank it all out because I was stupid and did not understand AC. Now I am edumacated and 609 certified so I can usually get it working without too much drama. All you need is some special tools and the knowledge to get it functional. Best to start testing for leaks while the fenders are off.
Sp as far as ac goes I'm have almost no knowledge. I'm hoping I hook it up and get it charged and it works. Plan B is......ya, still working on plan B. Plan C is to upgrade it to a modern ac unit if that is even a viable option. I've got most of the wiring figured out. Going to put it back together and get the shims figured out so the gaps and panels are the same and smooth then take it back apart and paint. Once I get the engine in I'll test everything including the ac and then when it's back apart fix the ac. Hey look at that, a plan coming together, lmao
Maybe you can edumacate me a little bit. On the factory book it shows the orange and black wire on the firewall disconnect panel going to the blower motor. But on a different wire diagram that says for ac option it has a thicker purple wire coming from a relay box. On The upper left going to the blower motor. But if that is correct which i think probably is, what do I do about the orange and black wire? Just cap it? Let me know if pictures would help. Thanks
Take a look at these .pdf diagram pages from the '68 Diagnosis Manual. I noticed the difference of the '68 Wiring Diagram to my '68 when I was replacing the AC's high speed blower) inline fuse and holder. Researching the Diagnosis Manual I realized the discrepancy between the references. Note there are other errors in the SM too. Here's a photo of my wire to the blower motor too. Just don't forget that dedicated 30A fused line from the alternator.
That said, my AC has never worked well. First, it needed a lot of work during the '68's daily driver years ('69-83) and second, it is just not efficient enough to truly cool the car when it after it sat in the sun all day with that thin black convert top. It was find when I pulled out of the garage in the morning but never cooled down on my commute home after work. I drove it top-down mostly when the weather permitted.
Thanks for posting those schematics Jim. Regardless of the wire color, all cars use a full 12 volts for the high speed blower. Some use a dedicated relay. The other speeds are merely lesser voltages. The coils on the resistor block lower the voltage but then they get hot just like a toaster oven. The resistor block is placed in the blower box air stream so it cools the resistor coils. My 1972 Catalina was the first car I had that had that big 30 amp inline fuse going to the blower. It caused a lot of trouble. Anyway, the secret to cold AC is to have absolutely NO moisture in the system. Read this article it is a good one: How automotive AC works The orifice or expansion valve where the high pressure liquid becomes low pressure vapor, and the temperature drop occurs, is where any moisture will freeze and block the system. Any time the system is open to the atmosphere you must assume moisture has entered. This why we vacuum down the system after it has been opened. You use a vacuum pump to bring the vacuum down to 29" at which point water will boil. Any water vapor gets drawn out by the pump. The receiver/drier will catch any moisture that may still be in there after servicing. That is why it gets changed out for a new one when the system is opened. You absolutely need a manifold gauge set so you can test the pressures. It is also used to vacuum the system as well as to add freon. The days of 'just keep adding until it feels cold' are long gone. Now we measure out the EXACT amount of freon the system takes. I use a simple cheap digital Postal scale for this. If you do all that, and there are no other problems, then the working pressures will be what the FSM specifies. When I said start testing for leaks I meant the evaporator in the AC housing, and the condenser in front of the radiator. Seal the ends and put a vacuum on them and see if it holds. If good, you can re-use them. A commercial AC flush might be a good idea too since they are so old. Then you can start with the correct amount of fresh oil too. The only moving part in the system is the compressor. It will either work without leaking- or it won't. Luckily the big GM A6 is a very good unit. Here is where it gets tricky. The system uses special oil. The old R12 system used mineral oil. Modern R134a systems use PAG oil. They are NOT compatible! So if you can get any R12 [EXPENSIVE] or equivalent, to use in your original R12 system you can stick with the mineral oil. If you want to change to R134a you must either flush or replace everything so the PAG oil can be used. Converting to R134a is well documented and tons of information is available. Trust me, it gets complicated. I know, your eyes hurt by now, last thing. I have a 1983 Pontiac G-body station wagon. It was R12. I am using all the 40 year old original parts, even the original mineral oil, except for the new drier and the compressor which is a 4 Seasons re-built. How? I used a freon replacement called Enviro-Safe. Enviro-safe freonThey now have to call it an R134a replacement because it is illegal to sell an R12 replacement. But it works fine in an R12 system because it is compatible with mineral oil. The commercial standard is 20° below ambient. I shoot for 30° below ambient and I sometimes get 35° below ambient. I am very happy with it and no conversion needed. Whew. My fingers hurt. Later.
Got another question for you. So the kickdown switch, WTF? I took pictures before I took it apart. So I know it's back like it was. Not saying it was correct before, just back like I found it. I just don't see how in the current configuration it's doing anything.
I'm wondering, since the engine is a 1970 tempest 350 if it'd used. The tempest uses a kickdown cable not switch. But the carburetor(rochester quadrajet)and transmission (th400) are still from the original 68 firebird
The second spring is not factory correct. It is one of the few non-original things I have decided to have on my '68. It is a safety device. Should the correct spring fail, the throttle could be stuck wide open. The second offers redundancy.
The cylindrical part in front is the idle stop solenoid. It's purpose is to lower the idle RPM when the engine is shut off to eliminate dieseling/run on.
So I should probably look for a different bracket or make one for the knockdown and then look to add the stop solenoid? What wire do you have going to the stop solenoid ? Blk with wht stripe?
Check Ames. I see the correct throttle lever for the '68 and the kickdown bracket on their site. The wiring diagram shows the black white stripe wire for the idle stop.
You don't need the idle stop if you are not dieseling. I once used that to cure dieseling on a high compression 1965 Buick Wildcat. The kick-down is needed, otherwise you can't downshift when flooring it. You might be able to fabricate the bracket so the plunger is pushed in by the throttle. It looks like your throttle is bolted on so the right one will just back-fit easily. Sometimes they can be found where they piggy-back to the throttle bracket. There is a spec for when it actuates, like 3/4 throttle or something, which is also when the secondaries should be opening. It is in the FSM.
Ol, I went back and looked and if you blink you miss it. One small paragraph and then the chart for the Solenoid. I still can't find the kickdown in there but I'll look more when I get my chores done, lol
I should have mentioned how the anti-dieseling solenoid works. When the throttle is adjusted for curb idle, the butterfly is open just a smidge. When the engine shuts off, if there are carbon deposits on the tops of the pistons, they can be glowing hot enough to ignite the mixture. Since the throttle is closed so much, and there is no real ignition spark, it 'diesels' or barely runs. You may have heard engines clanking and wheezing as they shudder to a stop. Sometimes it tries to run in reverse, which is worse. So the solenoid is there to extend and set the curb idle when the ignition is in 'RUN'. When the ignition is shut off, the solenoid releases and the throttle is completely closed, stopping the engine cold. The problem is most prevalent on high mileage high compression engines with a lot of carbon build-up. But early smog engines suffered too as fuel mixtures were set very lean. Since you have a low-to- medium compression engine, that just had the combustion chambers cleaned, you should be fine. PS- look in the transmission section for the kick-down.
Oly, look at the tilt column, it is done. This thread covers it all. Tilt column re-build I painted the top covers with black wrinkle paint and shrink-wrapped the lower section. I used a Formula steering wheel and got one of Talons24's 1st gen emblems for the horn button. Pretty cool, eh?
I appear to be going backwards. Got the engine back in the car and as you had warned that big [censored] distributor was giving me problems so I took it off to get the engine on and now I haven't been able to get it to run since then. Spent two days trying to track down an electrical issue cause I kept telling myself, I know the horn isn't bad so what else would it be? It was the horn
Any time you remove the distributor you need to make sure that the rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder, and the timing mark on the balancer is at 0° or it will be hell to get it back in the right spot again. Now you need to start from scratch and time it. You can remove a valve cover and watch the valves open and close while you manually turn the engine over. Or you can put a compression tester [or finger] over the #1 spark plug hole and 'feel' for the compression stroke. As it gets to TDC watch for the timing mark to come to 0°. Now you can put the distributor back in while indexing the rotor to #1. Be aware that as the distributor gear engages the camshaft gear it will rotate the distributor shaft. You have to start with the rotor away from #1 and try to anticipate how much rotation it will take to get it back to #1 correctly. Sometimes you may need to rotate the oil pump driveshaft with a big screwdriver to get it all to fit together properly. It is a skill, no doubt. Once the distributor is in about right, try and start it and if it does then time it for real with a timing light. If it doesn't then do as I mentioned earlier and remove all the spark plugs, insert them in the plug wires, ground them, and hook up the timing light to #1. Spin the engine while cranking the starter and time it. TIP: Any spot on the distributor cap can be #1. All that matters is that the firing order is maintained.
So I'm going to assume I'm probably the only person on the website that thought when you point the rotor to the #1 cylinder that this was the pointing side.
Well, yeah, the rotor is the pointing tool. The FSM has a specified #1 position so that service technicians can all be on the same page. But think about it. It really doesn't matter what terminal on the cap is #1. All that matters is that #1 is firing at the correct time and all the other cylinders are set up in the correct firing order. The reason I do that is to get more distributor swing so the vacuum advance canister has the most possible room for adjustment. That usually ends up being on the passenger side, pointing towards #6 cylinder. That way it clears the intake manifold and firewall. Lots of room. It also lets the spark plug wires be positioned better so none are stretched or stressed. But that is what I do- you do what the book says - I don't want to confuse you unnecessarily. So the other thing is that I was talking with a friend about that solenoid on the carb. Neither of us remember ever seeing an anti-dieseling solenoid on anything from the 60's. I'm sure there were some applications but we mostly remember seeing that on cars AFTER the lead was removed from gasoline. Back then we had 100 octane and higher gas sold as 'high test' , 'no-knock', 'premium', 'white gas', all sorts of marketing names. But it was high octane gas that the high compression engines needed to prevent detonation and run-on. Those engines ran very clean as long as they were kept in tune. Since you have AC it is more likely that is an AC high idle solenoid. It bumps up the idle speed to compensate for the AC compressor load. It is very easy to test. If the solenoid extends when the ignition is in 'RUN', then it is anti-dieseling. If it only extends when the AC is enabled, it is an AC solenoid. It may even be wired right into the AC compressor circuit. And while the anti-dieseling solenoids were phased out after time, the AC solenoids were used right up to when the last carburetor was used.
I still haven't put the ac back on yet. I'll get to it after I finish working thru the wires. Right now i have power to the ignition obviously, the wipers, interior courtesy lights and the light on the gear shifter console. My vacuum advance is sitting at about 9 o'clock. After setting the rotor to what I thought was #1 what seemed like at least a dozen times. The timing mark happened to just land on the timing line so I peeked under the distributor and it was 180 from where I had put it so I turned it 180, fired right up. So I put the trigger start back on so I could fire ir up and have the timing gun in the other hand, fired it up, adjusted the timing a bit and it ran super smooth. So I guess the real test will be if it fires right up today.
Well hell, so day 2. I started but a rough start. No just turning the key and it firing right up. When I crank it over its not a steady turn over, and right before it fires up, there is such a long pause you would swear it wasn't go to turn over again. But as soon as it gets that last crank and starts, it runs so smooth. I don't get it. I wish I knew more about it. Dint know if vacuum lines aren't hooked up right. Tempted to take it to a dyno shop and have them tune it.
So you were 180° off? Welcome to the club! If you are not off 180° once in a while you are not working on a car with a distributor. Yes, the distributor can seem to be in the 'right' spot because the TDC event occurs twice while the camshaft is rotating only once. The timing chain big/small gears slow the camshaft to 1/2 crankshaft speed. That is also why when you align the cam gear timing dimples up, if you are not indexed correctly you throw the distributor off 180°. You are learning, grasshopper. The vacuum lines I would plug them all for now until you track down where they all belong. Vacuum leaks will screw up everything. Just leave the vacuum break hooked up. That is the very short one that comes out of the carb and goes right to the vacuum pot on the pass side of the carb. You need that to crack the choke open once the engine starts. Just get the timing set and then I can walk you through a tune-up. Remember to set the base timing at the slowest idle you can maintain, with no vacuum advance hooked up. That is why I like pulling the plugs. No chance of centrifugal or vacuum advance interfering. Do you have a vacuum gauge? If not get one. It is indispensable. A tachometer is needed too.
So just to verify, on Pontiacs #1 is forward drivers side and you put the plugs on in firing order counter clockwise? I don't have a vacuum guage, just pressure guage. I will pick one up tomorrow. As far as tachometer I have the hood mounted one obviously. My timing gun has one and this fancy Dancy automotive multimeter that I just picked up and haven't figured out everything it does has one. Ugh, this is so f ing frustrating. I'm gonna take all the plugs out tonight and start over again. Probably stupid question since I keep the battery fully charged and it's practically brand new. Is 600 cca enough? This is hiw frustrated I'm getting, I'm questioning everything, lol.
Good article Doc. Oly get an inexpensive but good brand vacuum gauge as it is the only way to adjust the carburetor. The tach you have is OK because you really only need it to set the idle and choke speeds. A MITYVAC pump is very helpful testing vacuum operated components. My MITYVAC has a gauge but it is not as sensitive as a proper one. Cranking an engine without it starting is rough on the best battery in the world. That is why I pull the plugs and time it that way, no strain, and you get the timing dead on.
Explain to me a little more or send me an article on this magic way of timing you speak of. No spark plugs, no running engine? Que?? You Said, if I remember right to pull the spark plugs but have them grounded and plugged into the sockets still. I'm picturing 8 spark plugs still attached to the distributor cap. How do you ground that, 8 different ground wires? I tried googling that and couldn't find anything like that. But I'm game to give it a shot. I just took everything back off,so I have what I think is top dead center, distributor locked down, cap on, no plugs or wires. So it would be the perfect time to do it. Thanks again
Oh ya, the gauge and pump I picked up is also a mighty vac. I do have a decent set of hvac gouges that can read vacuum. Just not sure if I have an adapter to make it work
Yes, that is the idea, the spark plugs must be removed. You have the spark plug wires in the cap, then ground each one. I rigged up a harness of 8 big alligator clips that I use to ground each wire. I do this a lot so it made sense to rig that up. But in a pinch I just stick the spark plugs into each wire and lay them on the intake manifold. Or wrap some soft copper wire around each plug base and ground that. That way the spark is grounded. You can't just leave the wires un-grounded because electricity will find it's own ground. The end result is usually a blown ignition module. So with all the wires grounded, the ignition can fire normally, and the #1 wire will light up the timing light when it does. Loosen the distributor so it can be turned. Have a helper, or use a remote start button, to crank the engine. It will spin fairly rapidly because there are no plugs in, so no compression to fight against. The timing light will light up when #1 fires and you turn the distributor until the timing is right on, at 9°. If the timing is not even close then you are not working off #1 at TDC. If OK then tighten the distributor. Double check and if OK, you are done. It sounds more complicated than it is, but try it and you will see it is very simple. What you are doing is spinning the engine as if it was idleing. But it will never spin fast enough for the centrifugal advance to give a false timing event.
So I rigged up a grounding station. Buss bar and alligator clips. Grounded each one to the buss and ground the buss to rebar in the ground. It works for houses right? First try basically nothing. Couldnt turn it by hand to get it close. Timing light may have flashed twice. So I switched it 180 figuring it was operator error. Still nothing. So I had the brilliant idea to put a meter on one of the wires(brilliant right)? But no spark from the distributor. Checked the wire feeding the distributor and it gad power. So know what? Bad distributor? It's brand new. Ignition module? I was using a remote start with key in the run position. Any suggestions or tips on troubleshooting? Thanks
