As competitive as these races were, don't you think that if a team was lying about production that another team would call them on it? Especially if it was a winning team? There was a small production run, somewhere. Even if it was only on paper. I can't remember how many constituted 'production' back then. You can bet someone had a list of Vin's. Maybe fictitious, but there was a list.
One thing about the Canadian Documentation Service, they only have documentation on cars built in Canada or sold through a Canadian Dealership.
Exactly! And if the loophole let the cars race "because that's the way they were sold in Canada" then let's see the proof.
I think the standard was 1000 production cars. That's a lot of falsified accounting if Pontiac was involved. So I do not think that there will be any proofs to be found.
Last edited by Yellowbird; 12/15/0602:32 PM.
Vikki
1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
So you think Ford said, "That's cool, bring it on, production or not". What would be the point in having any rules then? There are many cases where manufacturers had to prove they had production runs for cars to qualify.......
T/G (Titus Godsall) was not a factory race team. Pontiac was not officially involved in a racing program. So it is highly doubtful that Pontiac would have perpetrated fraud by falsifying production information on their behalf. If they did, why didn't they just take a Firebird and drop a Chevy in it? Why clone a Camaro?
Vikki
1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
Production equals GM not Godsall. Am I mistaken or was this race limited to production cars? You are making an argument that there were really 1000 plus Chevy powered Birds.
Trouble putting louvers in? These are professional racers, representing some of the highest automotive design/fabrication/mechanical talent in the world. More important, the trouble for the louvers is that, unlike factory, they are most likely functional and have nothing to do with cosmetics.
Production equals GM not Godsall. Am I mistaken or was this race limited to production cars? You are making an argument that there were really 1000 plus Chevy powered Birds.
Jim, quit changing the context of what I am saying.
I say that the cars raced under falsified documentation, and that's probably why Terry Godsall dropped the program (Jerry Titus picked up where he left off) when Godsall said the SCCA had "inconsistent application of the rules". I do not think that the cars were qualified AT ALL as no comparable production models were available.
Vikki
1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
You said, "So it is highly doubtful that Pontiac would have perpetrated fraud by falsifying production information on their behalf."
My logic was that if Pontiac didn't falsify it then it wasn't false. Therefore you made the arguement that the documentation wasn't false. If the documentation wasn't false then there were 1000 production Firebirds with Chevy engines.
"inconsistent application of the rules" Could mean that for instance cougars were allowed to run w. certain mustang equipment, but pontiac were not allowed to run certain camaro equipment..
I think the whole story starts and ends with Terry Godsall, he may have received engineering assistance from Pontiac but if he was racing Chevy engines in Camaro-birds then why would Pontiac be involved at all? At least until 1969, when Pontiac DID produce genuine Trans Am production cars, albeit not with SCCA approved smaller engines. And not 1000 of them either.
I don't doubt that the true '69 and '70 Pontiac Firebirds bought by T/G for racing were real. But I do doubt that the '68s and some of the '69s campaigned as "Firebirds" were legitimate production vehicles off any Pontiac production line.
The argument may indeed have come about due to sister divisions. Challengers and Cudas used the same engines. Mercury and Ford used the same engines. Pontiac and Chevrolet and Buick and Olds and Cadillac did not.
Last edited by Yellowbird; 12/15/0605:17 PM.
Vikki
1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
Anyone catch the aerodynamic edge that the front two Camaro drivers came up with? ( There is a hint in the Firebird picture below it. )
The windshield wipers are all in the 'up' position? edit: oops Claus got it already. Surely that adds quite the advantage I did have a vehicle where the wipers would lift off the windscreen at highway speeds... i can't remember what i was driving though.
Just made the $10 phone call. No. No. No. No. Those were the answers that I received to the four different ways I asked the question just to make sure.
Other answers: ALL Canadian Pontiacs had Chev drivetrains and chassis, and mostly Chev sheet metal - floor pan, roof, structure, etc. - with the outside sheet metal changed for styling purposes.
Reason for Canadian Pontiacs being built with Chev drivetrains and chassis: before Free Trade, GM Canada decided for economic reasons that the Chev chassis would be used for all Chev and Pontiac cars built in Canada. That way they didn't have to import Pontiac drivetrains and drive up the cost of manufacturing Pontiacs in Canada.
The first Firebirds that were actually built in Canada were 1993 models. They could be ordered with a small block Chev under the hood. So all Canadian built Firebirds could be ordered with Chev drivetrains, it only took a quarter century after the period in question for that to happen!
There: the facts from the Canadian Documentation Service. No "Canadian" first generation Firebirds. No mysterious "1000" cars out there somewhere.
So: the myth was a fabrication by racers to allow them to run Firebirds in the new Trans Am series with the proven Chev engine. They disguised Camaros with louvers and grilles to look like Firebirds. SCCA allowed them to run. T/G racing placed first in their inaugural race at Daytona in Feb. 1969, and with those results, they then convinced Pontiac to help - they put four guys on it. Pontiac itself had nothing to do with it until then. The SCCA had already given the OK.
The Special Projects team (as they were called) took over a year to come up with a competitive engine. In the meantime T/G continued to run Camaro engines in cars either bought as or disguised as Firebirds.
Sold me. At face value it was a marketing ploy by Godsall and DeLorean to promote Firebird sales. Why else would they race the Firebird? I look at motive and the motive was Pontiac sales. Pontiac had everything to do with the fabrication. But without any tangable ties.
So now can we spread the good news, that FGFs were originally true to the marque no matter where they were sold?
Thank you, Jim. I consider you to be a good litmus test for "unbelievers"! You have the knowledge base and reasoning to come up with applicable arguments and the perseverance to put them forth.
Thank you to all the people who have helped bring this into the light of day! This is another bit of Pontiac racing history that can be seen as the clever ploy that it was, by racers wanting to beat the Camaros - by using Camaros!
No, Jim, it was completely separate from Pontiac. Godsall wanted to be to Pontiac what Penske was to Chevrolet. He was a recent multi-millionaire (in '1969 dollars!) and wanted to go racing. There were even rumours that Godsall bought the "lightweight" Penske Camaro to use for the Daytona class win - which would explain how they managed to put in such a spectacular first race! Titus basically had to do a one-man show keeping things going after that.
Let's wait until all the pieces are in. I've submitted a request to SCCA's historian, but it will likely be after the holidays before a response is tendered.
Vikki
1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
This evening i spoke to my pontiac collector friend/historian and he said that there was never a firebird build with a chevy engine in canada and that firebird were never made in canada. He did say many of the big pontiac however were built up there and fitted with chevy engines from the factory.
One Pontiac I missed (and may try to track down) was a 1965 Pontiac Parisienne (Catalina in the US I believe) Custom Sport convertible with a 409 from the factory. I had a plain Parisienne 2 dr hardtop with the stock 283 when I spotted this other one and was sorely tempted - but the right rear quarter was caved in, so I passed it up for $250. After all, I had driven my other '65 home for $75!
Buick, Olds and Caddy had their respective engines, just not the Pontiacs. I'm not sure if/when the cross-over to Pontiac engines occurred, one friend's father had a '72 Pontiac with a Chev 350, another a '75 Bonneville with a Pontiac 455.
To take you WAY back to October 28th when, in the CANADIAN MUSCLE CAR MYTH thread, I said I would only update that thread if I got a response. Well, I got a response!
This goes back to Jim's reply saying he got hold of a toll-free number for GM's Vintage Vehicles line (1-888-467-6853), free to Canadian residents only.
I heard from someone named George just yesterday. Here are the main points of that conversation:
1. No FGFs were ever produced in Canada. 2. Some Pontiacs in that era produced in Canada DID have Chevy engines installed (specifically the 302), as Canadian Pontiacs were smaller in size compared to their U.S. counterparts (really?). 3. Putting a Chevy engine in a Canadian-made Pontiac became more common in the 80's and 90's. 4. And finally - Chevy engines were put in FGFs for racing!
Interesting...
Mark
68 Firebird 350 auto (sold) 70 Trans Am RAIII 400 4-speed (sold) 2011 Challenger SRT8 IE392 6-speed (sold) 2017 Challenger Hellcat 1966 Dodge Coronet 440
#1. Agreed. And that was the key to disproving this myth. Vikki steadfastly maintained this from the outset and was 100% correct.
#2. My source's statement that ALL Canadian Pontiacs were built on the appropriate Chev chassis and with Chev drivetrain coincides with my personal experience. I'd question the "smaller" part of George's answer as well as the 302 part. To my knowledge, the 302 was a Camaro specific option - Z-28 only I think. 307s were certainly common enough in the early '70s!
#3. By the '80s and '90s, GM plants on both sides of the border were using engines produced by the different divisions without regard to the car line that they were installed in - the Corporate engine scheme. Chev provided 60 and 90 degree V-6s (2.8/3.1/3.4 and 4.3) and the small block V-8, Buick provided the 90 degree 3.8 V-6 and Pontiac seemed to be producing only four cylinder engines.
#4. Chev engines were put in Camaros that were disguised to look like Firebirds! And yes there were a few Firebirds that did receive a "Heartbeat" transplant before the Pontiac 303 hit the scene, but those were by racing teams, not for sale to the general public at any local Canadian Pontiac dealer!
#1 is the key as mentioned, and sounds the death knell for the myth.
I watched a show on speed channel about the Trans Am series races and there wasn't one picture of a 1st gen Firebird in the whole show. Not even a Bird nose. No mention of Godsall or Pontiac being involved at all.