Here is some pictures of trans-am firebirds.. (camaro's ??)

-Does not prove anything built from the factory in either way, but I thought you might enjoy the pictures of the 'z28 cambird' -It's pretty obvious from reading the captions that THESE aren't genuine birds.. -but they look fine to me anyway

Interesting.

Awesome pics and interesting story!

No doubt! It would be really cool to watch all those first gens running around the track like that.

So maybe it wasn't 1st gen Firebirds with Chevy engines. Maybe it was 1st gen Camaros done up to look like Firebirds? That wouldn't account for a 69 Firebird with a 307 and 307 badges now would it?

The VINs would tell the tale. Camaros converted to look like 'birds would have Camaro VIN stampings, just as Firebirds modified to look like Camaros have Firebird VIN stampings. Hidden VINs would be a good place to start.

It is interesting that they did that...what gave it away to me before i looked at the caption underneath (because i like pictures better than word-who doesnt) were the side "spines" flowing to the front chrome bumper.
Now why didnt they just use real firebirds?

Here is some more good stuff, including a claim that firebirds from canada was born w. chevy engines, therefore it was technically possible to order them w. the z28 package..

who knows, maybe some really (still) exists..

Claus,
Could you give us the name of the book, author and any sources credited? The date it was written would help too. Maybe we can pin down where the info originated. The writer seams confident that Canadian Firebirds came with Chevy engines. Not special ordred with Chevy engines. He leads you to believe that all Canadian Firebirds had Chevy engines. What Canadian Firebirds? What made them Canadian?

The book is called 'The Faboulous Firebird' by Michael Lamm

The book also covers a special ohc six racer, a 'brabram 400' and has prototype 69 trans-am version plus gen two firebirds are covered also..

the book is from october 1979, -first printing, and edition . around 160 pages..

Lots of cool stuff in this book..


http://www.amazon.com/Fabulous-Firebird-Michael-Lamm/dp/0932128017
However this book doesn't prove anything, I might add, but it's pretty interesting nevertheless..

The book was written in 79. That means that the info was only 10 years old at the time. I wonder what Michael Lamm would have to say about it? Is this the beginning of the myth or the end of the knowledge?

Maybe he just quoted what the race teams claimed, -that canadian firebirds all came with chevys..

ofcause some canadian pontiacs were born w. chevy engines, and back then noone could 'google' and it sounded true to them perhaps.. -if it was a lie that is..

Good scam by all means..

That would be a whopper to tell just ten years after it happened. It seams like there should have been a bunch of Pontiac fans around that wouldn't be able to swallow such a big lie about Firebirds. I mean, Canada isn't very far away!

There is ofcause the possibility that it was true..

could be interesting to try to contact Michael Lamm and maybe even get ahold of more cool pics. (they are proberbly not digitized, unfortunately)..

-But the book is a good 'souce' -and it has some lesser known facts also..

I thought I saw a photo of these cars before so looked again. Here is a web page with another shot of the cars in action. Scroll down the page a ways.
Trans Am Series 1969

if you look close enough, the hood and bumper fit dont match as they should. must be the camaro fenders.

andy

I have the book too, and concluded that it was false at the time after a quick check at the local Pontiac dealer - no Chev parts for "Canadian" Firebirds were listed in their parts catalog, which I also have a copy of. Some of the guys had been around at that time and were only to glad to educate me on the subject.

The excerpt in the book is just another repeat of the con perpetrated so Pontiac racers could run in the Trans Am series, not the beginning of the myth. That was started by the racers mentioned. I sent a polite inquiry to Milt Minter racing regarding replicating one of the "Canadian" Firebirds - no reply there either!

Most Canadians knew that there were differences between US built and Canadian built cars, including Chev drivetrains in most of the Pontiacs. Except the musclecars: GTOs and Firebirds received "the Blue Block", "the American Big Block", "the US Pontiac engine" as they were known to the few people up here who had or knew about them. As to how many actually heard of the myth, it would have been a very small number, and even fewer people would be at all concerned. I'm apparently the only one putting up a stink about it! But all the officials had to do at the time to quash the rumour was to call up a few dealershups at the time and ask.

My contention is that the officials went along with it in order to get the car count up. In their eyes, the Camaro and the Firebird were the same cars, just like the Mustang and Cougar, and Challenger and 'Cuda.

Good scam indeed! And by the way legends are the stories that usually have a germ of truth, not myths! Was Not True!

I guess I'll have to start talking about Big Block Pontiacs, as presented at the top of the cover of the recent Pontiac Enthusiast magazine! They should know, right? Must be true, it's in print!

So Lamm didn't know his Fabulous Firebirds as well as he thought. Maybe he should have done a little more research. Like you said, all he would have had to do was call a few dealerships and the rumour would have been quashed.

I don't know whether Mr. Lamm was just repeating the story for the record or just not concerned about it either way. The rest of the book seems to be accurate from what I know and definitely very interesting. I think that for most people it wasn't worth the bother of checking, being a fairly minor note in the Firebird story. It's me that is making a big deal out of it.

Personally I don't think there ever was such an option as the z28 firebird, but if GM had to make it available in order to race the firebirds, they proberbly would have a sort of COPO canadian z-28's ...

-Just as with so called 'heavy duty' parts that was possible to order, but no one really knew about it.. -only the racers.

Seems like he knew.

after that he doesn't put "Canadian" in quotes, but... if you replace 'firebird' with 'pontiac' in the subsequent sentences in the paragraph, it holds truthy

Claus, can you name any of those "heavy duty" parts that the general public would not have known about?

Okay, just looked up the page in my FF book. He states that Canadian Firebirds came with Chevrolet engines, and then says that technically a Canadian Firebird could be ordered with the Z-28 302 engine. He didn't do his research. Or like Scott said, he meant to say Pontiac instead of Firebird. Does anyone know where he is so we can ask him?

So if all Canadian Firebirds came with Chevrolet engines, where are they? Or even one? I say that every FGFirebird built in Canada actually had a Hemi under the hood, and I can prove it! Show me a Canadian built '67 to '69 Firebird and we can all take a look under the hood. If there isn't a Hemi in there, it's not a Canadian Firebird!

Vikki, the heavy-duty parts catagories in my Chevrolet Power Manual (5th edition) are as follows: Special Body, Sheet Metal and Cooling System Components; Heavy Duty Brake Componenets; Rear Axle and Drive Components; Front Axle and Steering Components; Springs, Stabilizer Shafts and Hardware; Special Exhaust System Components. As well, each of the engine types has its own list of off-road parts. Any part or part number in particular that you'd like?

So Terry Godsall was the man behind the myth. It also states that they ran the '67-'68 season with Canadian Camaros with fiberglass grilles and the full Z-28 package. I guess now I'll have to find me a Canadian Camaro(?) with the optional Firebird grille! (Will it have an Oldsmobile engine in it?)

I was looking at those old pictures of the TA series racers and a question came to mind: If any of us ran into one of these old race cars would we recognize it for what it was? Or would we just laugh and say, "Look at that cobble job somebody put together." A car I saw recently came to mind. Check it out, one of those race cars found!
Link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/69-F...hZ020QQcategoryZ6420QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

One of the Camaro-Firebirds has been found and restored, #26, at this link:

historictransam.com/Drivers/SteveYoung

Are they trying to tell us that they went through the trouble of putting the QP louvers in? I find that hard to believe.

Here is a 1968 source of the myth! Scroll down to "The Race for Second":
http://www.amx-perience.com/TransAmRacing1968.htm

Brent, I was referring to special heavy duty first gen Pontiac parts, like those "Super Duty" rods that were sold over the parts counter until Pontiac figured out that they wouldn't have enough for spare parts!

Jim, there's no way that cobble would have been one of "those cars", not with A/C, unless it was cobbled over the original cobble. And if the VIN matches a RA car, then it couldn't have been Chevy powered, could it?

Sectioning in the louvers wouldn't be that big a deal compared to the rest of the mockup.

Here's that myth again, from the page referenced by Brent:


And here's another link to virtually the same content:
http://www.trans-amseries.com/Drivers/MarkBalestra.htm

They cobbled together a '69 front end with a '68 grille, so a few louvers wouldn't be much of a problem.

Again it was Godsall that was behind the myth. If Firebirds in Canada really did come with Chev engines, the parts departments would have Chev parts on hand and available to order, so how could the Chev dealers think they could keep the cross-ram intake manifolds away from Firebird owners? Unless of course the Chev dealers didn't like the loophole and knew it was a scam.

Here's what I suspect was the thought process: "If some models of Pontiacs in Canada have Chev engines, why can't we say that all Pontiacs could theoretically be sold in Canada with Chev engines, particularly a Firebird with the full Z-28 package". The officials apparently weren't too concerned but the Chevrolet dealers were certainly in a huff about it. Can't really blame them, it was a Camaro in wolf's clothing.

I'd consider that 1968 article to be a good starting point. That was fresh rumor! Of course paperwork was filed by Pontiac to be eligible...does anyone have any sources in SCCA?

I've re-interpreted rules in racing to gain an advantage whenever I could. I have built more than one car that never existed but was allowed by the rules. I've also been the reason for some rules being clarified! It's considered part of the game, and one played very well by Smokey Yunick.

Filing the paperwork doesn't prove that the rumour had any basis in the truth, any more than SCCA letting Pontiac use a 303 based on the "Fact" that it was going to be released as a production engine. That never happened either. Both are typical of the manuevering that goes on between the officials and the competitors.

Arent there any old [censored] canadians pontiac fans that can help us out here and prove this sucker. I know a old time firebird collector/pontiac historian many of you may have seen him in past Pontiac magazines, his name is Jeff Kleinberg...im gonna email him this week and see if he can help us.

A Canadian member (Pedlonardrite) has GM exec relatives that had memories.... But it wasn't conclusive because there wasn't any proof. Contacting Jeff K. would be good. If anybody could get an inside line with the Canadian Documentation Service, they would know for sure. And as far as the Pontiac dealers not having Chevy parts, that's not conclusive. There was a Chevy dealer right down the street that could supply the Chevy engine parts. Dealerships often pass parts back and forth.

One question on this: Why did the big Pontiacs get Chevy engines? Or even more general, why did any Canadian Pontiacs get Chevy engines?

And when did Firebirds start being made in Canada?

Good question, Jim. Here's what I think might be another one - why didn't the Canadian teams just buy one of these "Canadian Firebirds" instead of converting Camaros? One of the guys that I know that was racing in Trans Am at the time tells me of a real Canadian Firebird that was dropped off behind their shop for them to convert to a race car - with the only engine from the Pontiac factory (CDN or US) that was legal in Trans Am at the time, the OHC six. They did okay as long as the track had short straights.

If there had been any other engine option, they definitely would have used it. They didn't have a choice, and that to me, a fellow racer who will find whatever way that I can to be competitive, is very convincing.

No, the dealership thing isn't conclusive but indicates to me that we certainly don't have all the facts and opinions regarding the happenings. I've been trying to follow leads that I think of up here. So far I haven't found any proof of the actual existence, and a big void where there should be evidence. But lack of proof is not an elimination of the possibility.

Vikki has presented the most logical and convincing way of proving that it wasn't just a scam by the racers - provide info on just one car. IF there is any basis in truth to this, there should be at the very least hundreds of Chev-equipped Firebirds out there.

The number of rare FGFs that have been found and documented - incuding seven of the eight TA convertibles - makes a strong case in my mind that one "302 FIrebird" should have turned up in the last quarter century of scrounging.

If there was any participation by Pontiac in any Trans-Am racing program, then there should be firsthand accounts and factory ledgers or invoices somewhere. I do not believe there is any truth at all in the tale of "Canadian Firebirds" that were not truly modified Camaros or US Firebirds, simply because "Canadian Firebirds" don't exist! All North American Camaros and Firebirds were US-built.

If it was a wildcat operation by racers, without factory support, why did Pontiac not quash the rumors? Is it because the racing program boosted sales?

Of the Who's Who of Pontiac, who should have the answers? I'll be happy to present the question.

The difference between a TA vert turning up and a Bird with a Chevy engine is this: A TA vert is going to get recoginized because it can't hide. The trim tag would be different from any other 1st gen. A Bird with a Chevy engine isn't very noticeable.
You say that you haven't seen one in your quarter century of scrounging. How would you know it if you saw it? You would have had to see it and order a PHS.

Ok, Jim, what would the engine code be?

DZ if it had the 302. The one I saw had a 307(DC DD). Maybe you could start by asking a simple question like; Why did any of the Pontiacs have Chevy engines? The answer may be in the answer.

Why did they make a Beaumont, a Chevelle with Pontiac body parts?
There aren't many of those floating around.

Those were built in Canada. Find a documented Firebird or Camaro that was built in Canada BY Pontiac.

This could easily be answered by the Canadian Documentation Service. Like I said in the previous Myth thread. It's a $10 call for me.......

http://gmcanada.com/english/maintenance/parts/parts_vint.html

Post deleted by Yellowbird

There are several members with CDS documented Firebirds. All were built in the US. What GM plant was equipped to build Firebirds or Camaros in Canada between 1967 and 1969? None. Out of the thousands of cars discussed on this site, do any have a VIN showing an assembly plant other than Van Nuys, Norwood or Lordstown?