Here's another example of what a complete unrestored convertible brings. This one is a plain 350 that doesn't even appear to have power steering or power brakes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190078396707&rd=1&rd=1

Don't believe everything you see on eBay. Especially when the buyer has -1 and it looks like this; Non- paying Bidder!!! Sellers Beware!!! Bids on items without having the $$$ !!

Just bought a numbers matching 68 400 HO 4 speed...rust free California car.

For $11,000

I think $10,050.00 was too much vs the condition of the car evidenced by the pictures. There's A LOT of work to do and what appears like a lot of rust.

Banshee: any pics of what you scored?

Yes..

Have them, don't know how to post them.

Computer illeterate.

I am not the guy in the blue hat..for those wondering...

Nice! Seems to have lots of original parts too. What's the mileage?

Score!

57,981

Untitled since roughly 78-81. Still working on the actual years though.

Yes, that looks near complete and in great shape. I picked up mine (convert) for just under 4K...3 yrs + ago.

I found the HO to be reasonably priced..

Bird Glass
3.55 Performance Axle
M-21 Muncie
Hood mounted tachometer
Ride and handling package
power steering
power brakes
Deluxe interior
Custom seat belts
remote mirror
deluxe steering wheel
rally gauges
rear mount antenna
am radio
195/r14 whitewall rayon radials
tinted glass all windows

I am happy with it..maybe less than 20% of the HO 4 speed 400's remain.

No way that car is worth that much.
Around 5K "maybe".

Paid 10K for my 68 coupe that has 15K in parts.
But, i've had to spend 2K to make it right, and now re-doing body work, complete paint...all w/striping and chrome...
See where i'm going here?
There's better deals out there, just have to be patient.

Meant the e-bay car, not Banshee's, his was good deal.

I agree with ponchoshop..and I meant Banshees car...I also see that you are trying to search forthe missing correct peices to make it a true #'s matching car, Such as the carb and exhaust manifolds.....Those parts alone are BIG money for originals and it will add to the already high price of the car prior to starting resto. ...Keep in mind, that when the correct exhaust manifolds are (or if they are) found now the exhaust needs to be changed..I can hear the $$$$ quickly going into this car...I myself would rather pay for a restored correctly car that someone has already found the correct parts and did the resto, The price (in most cases) is even less!...Just my thoughts

Yes, it can be much cheaper to buy the parts already installed and finished on the car...but I would rather know what I am starting with before I see the end result. Especially with a car I plan to keep for many years.

The fun part is finding all the parts and putting the car back together...anyone can just go buy one what fun is that?

John(ruffnutt) brings up the exception of restoring that one car for yourself. It seems that those are the only cars getting what they deserve. Probably because there's no money in it. There has to be satisfaction and enjoyment to offset the restoration costs.

John(67Firebird400) states the opinion that is widespread through the classic/collector car market. The collectors only want the 'done' cars. They need to be very nearly perfect to draw money from anyone that has common market sense. One exception would be the people, like Tom(Banshee), who love the cars whether they are restored or not. Not to be confused with the people who are trying to flip anything for a buck. It's a long row to hoe with one of these unrestored cars. It's like a proverbial 'roll of the dice'. With the question foremost, "Will I ever get this done"? Preceded and followed by the question, "Do I want to take it apart, it's so cool the way it is".

Every car has its place in the market...if the market was limited to finished and flawless cars only, there would be very few Firebirds around. Fortunately, there is also a market for cars that aren't ready for prime time, some may be good enough to restore to perfection given a generous amount of time and money, while others may be so far from original that they will likely remain "drivers" for many years to come, yet they still please their owners. And there is nothing wrong with that, not everyone can afford a #1 or even a high #2 car, and even if you can, not many #1s get driven as they were intended. Even the dead cars have their place in the chain, they help keep others alive.

The only real shame is the cars that are improperly stored, kept for that future that never comes when the owner is going to restore it. Meanwhile, the car quietly rusts away under a tarp or in the barn.

I had a #1 Le Mans, I have a #2 numbers matching Firebird, I have an unrestored numbers matching Firebird and I have a couple of drivers. The drivers can be the most fun; because they lack the total originality, I'm not afraid of breaking something. I can make changes because it won't destroy the integrity of the car. And the initial investment is less, so I can afford to make those changes.

Of course every car has it's place. You just aren't going to make a quick buck off the unrestored cars. You can play the 'in between' role on a restored car and turn some quick cash. The undisputable fact is that your 'time for money' quotient is sad for restoring a car. I can do all the mechanical work, all the interior work and all the body and paint work myself. When it's(project) all done(sold), I can expect to make about minimum wage per hour unless I steal the car in the first place.

You know John..you asked me to stay away from your posts several times and I have. Now you have to post this. Nobody asked you for your thoughts, nor do they care. As for your opinion, I could care less. You stated you wanted peace and humility, yet you can't even remember your repeated demands for what you so constantly violate. You start crap like this continue it and when Bjorn steps in, You state "we need to be a better board, enough of this..." You really have issues.

I make this statement not because I am offended by what you say, it is the inconsistancy, jealousy, spite, despise, anger,

You must be on a 24 hour post watch for what I am looking for..

I confered with Jim Mattison on this car, sent him pics and told him everything about the car after buying it. I agreed to the prioe before talking to Jim and knew this was an excellent deal based on the lack of a solid 400 HO car anywhere on the market in the last 5-10 years that is this price. Jim concurrently agreed that the car was an excellent deal..Do you wish to dispute his knowledge?

Yes, so it is missing a carb and manifolds. And?

Carb $1-2k, manifolds, I have a line on a set of K coded for $1000. That is $3k to complete and add another $1200 for a Gardner exhaust and $6k paint job, that is $11k purchase price, $4200 to complete and a paint job. $21,000 for a complete numbers matching 400 HO. Restored, they bring $32 to 35k and that is exactly where my car will be when finished.

At least I have a solid car, all options are there, needs no rust repair, etc.

You have an issue John, send it privately.

The post is about what 10K can buy.

If you do the math, very few cars are "worth" restoring from average quality, if you consider it from a financial standpoint. You have to do it for the cars, or you have to be a shop, charging the customer for every nickel's worth of time.

I also do most of the work myself. I don't set windshields, weld, shoot paint, or do the machine shop operations. But I can do the rest, and so I know exactly what is done and how it's done.

What pains me is to see people spend so much money on eBay for a car that it's not likely they are ever going to get to driving condition, much less restored. A lot of those cars are just too far gone, needing too much. They'll be upside-down on value from the moment they buy it, then pay for delivery or pickup, and start throwing money at it. It gets old real soon. I've had enough old cars to be able to tell the difference. I'd rather err on the side of caution, and I won't buy a car I'm not positive won't fill its niche affordably.

Two point of views; Jim M's and Tom's versus John's. I think that the difference is as simple as the difference between love and money. Both powerful motivators. I'm with Jim and Tom on this. My love for these cars is tempered with my lack of disposable income though. I wish I had more money to throw for love. Good find Tom, I know your motive because I can feel it right from the pics. Sweet car.

Thanks Jim,

I had already committed to the car before sending the pictures to Jim Mattison. He called me Monday and ran down the PHS for me and reaffirmed the find as numbers matching and an excellent deal based on how many are left, current condition, correctness, completeness and price. I did tell him that the carb and manifolds were not there and he said he would keep an eye out for me. For this, I am completely confident and happy with this car, price and knowledge that Mattison sends his blessing.

All I really care about is that I found a true HO for a great price. I could have purchased a restored correct complete HO for $30k, but I am not paying for anyones older restoration and $45k for a rotisserie restoration.

Jim stated that a number 1 or high 2 car roughly $40k.

It's a sweet, straight, clean and incredibly original car. Even if it wasn't an HO it would be a great find...the fact that it is a true and documented HO only sweetens the deal.

What does it matter what it costs when you can get so much enjoyment from owning it, plus the satisfaction of doing it yourself, for yourself?

Hmmm. A couple things come to mind; You can't eat it and your family doesn't appreciate all your time being spent on it. It's a tough balancing act for some of us. It really does matter what it costs in terms of money and quality time.

I personally think this car was a much better buy...Get in turn the key and drive...And, convertible, AC, Tilt, 400, power windows, PS, PDB, and more...Here is the E-Bay#.
Item number: 320078993267

LOL, point taken. Sometimes it just takes more time to reach the destination. That's why there are so many incomplete projects, or teardowns like the '70 Vette my dad just bought. It's in boxes, he's not getting any enjoyment out of it because he is not a do-it-yourselfer.

Some of the best quality time I enjoy is with my ten year old daughter helping me work on the cars, or being my car show buddy. She's very much into them. My son isn't, but that's okay. We spend time together on other things, right now it's learning to drive proficiently.

I don't have extra money or time to spend on movies, videos, dinners out, new stereos and TVs, fancy duds, magazine subscriptions or most other things. I have found I don't miss them at all. When my budget won't let me work on the car, it waits patiently, and best of all I can enjoy what I've invested in it for a long time to come.

Yes Vikki life is full of enjoyments in many ways. I will NEVER restore a car again myself, It takes time away from the other enjoyments we all have and if it does not, then the car will sit there and never get finished...Yes I would rather buy a done car, Its a lot easier for me to just write the check and then I still have all the time I want for other enjoyments in life.I do not think it is wrong if anyone wants to restore their car themselves or have it done, I just know it is cheaper to buy one done. As you are aware, Tom forgot to mention the other costs involved in restoring a car, Such as interior, Chrome work (big $ nowadays), stainless, glass, I could go on and on..Those nickel and dimes add up very quickly.

Yes, they do. And to restore them is to respect them. Why even mess with an old car when you can buy a brand new car that does a better job of everything? There is more to a car than its mechanicals, and there is more to the mystique of a vintage vehicle than just putting the key in the ignition. In weather like this, single digits and snow on the ground, I can enjoy my cars by working on bits and pieces.

Some of us repair, refurbish, and scavenge parts, lessening the cost and increasing the originality as opposed to reproduction. An investment of time and sweat is worth more than money any day, IMO.

I don't know about that John. That vert is in need of a total resto in my opinion. Needing $20K+ before you can jump in and enjoy it. You aren't going to be smiling much driving that around. Don't let the pictures fool you. I think this exerpt from the description sums that up: Has 122,000 original milege. I am the second owner of this car. This is a great restorable muscle car!

The seller even says 'it's restorable'.

That car is a fine driver, if mechanically sound. I agree with Jim, if you want more than a driver it needs a full restoration...which means taking it apart and putting it back together. It shows well because it doesn't have gaping holes and dangling parts. But it's just a very tired used car.

You wouldn't want to take that one to a show as-is.

Jim,I spoke with the seller prior to the end of the auction and yes he stated it would need a full resto just because of the quaility and options on the car. But if anyone wanted just a driver...It is a very nice car for that...I also think any 400 convertible that is all #s matching is worthy of rerstoring, I just do not want to do it.

Vikki, You were typing as I was

Given that it's a numbers matching convertible, it's a fair price. If fully restored that car is probably going to have more invested than what it is "worth" for a few years. But it would still qualify as a sensible decision based on the factory options and relative scarcity.

That's where numbers matching cars and non-matching cars diverge. If the car was not numbers-matching, it might not ever be "worth" the investment. So why are non-matching cars and low-optioned cars restored? For pleasure, not profit.

I agree.... Your thougts and mine differ on what and how we want to own cars. No problem thats what makes this such a great country.

If that car was perfectly restored and priced at $40-$45K today I wouldn't buy it. If it was perfectly original at $30K and very, very nice I would. If I was in the market for a red on red '68 400 vert, that is...

if you look at the bidder history you can see this guy is trying to trump up his price by bidding as another person. evidence is in bidder history.

andy

Th 68 HO, I understand ALL aspects of what is needed, required, demanded.

As far as my family, I have $20k a year in expendable income for my job after all bills are paid off. I worry not about incidentals or anything.

If the car costs me $15k on the high end to restore completely, I already planned that and have it all planned out.

I have all my avenues, costs and related planned and buffered for a +/- 20% fluctuation. I know what it will cost and I have the satisfaction and knowledge that my 25k investment is done right and correct and not a 40k store bought, lot purchased generic paint job "X" and motor build "X" car.

Yes, buying a completely redone 68 HO at 36K is nice, but at least I know who did what and where and it is done right. So my 26K investment I save 10k and know where the car quality stands. And on top of that, tell me when you last seen a 68 400 HO in that condition for that price. Been looking for 13 hard years. I dont personally care of any negatives. Mattison seen it, and all is well, overpriced or not. BTW, he stated $17K w/o the carb and manifolds.

With the carb and intake and complete resto, the high end of the car value will be 30% more than what I have in it and increasing. Jim estimates around 3-350 HO's for 68 remain. I am in the best position I can be barring the same car in numbers matching RA I or II

This is an investment and not a status symbol.

It all depends on if you guys are going to drive these cars more than a couple of miles a year. If they are only taken out to go to shows you might just as well put the money in the bank.

I just think the enjoyment of our cars is in driving no matter how rare or valuable.( also in working on them).

Jim G.
67 conv 400

i agree. invest in stockmarket if you want investment. spend your money a your firebird if you want to have funn!!!!!!