I have a friend who purchased a '67 HT with a 326 and a powerglide. He says the person he bought it from is the original owner and told him the hood (with hood scoupes) was the factory item. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this for him, as he intends a full restoration. I was under the impression that if you didn't have the 400 motor, you didn't have scoops, and if it was a RA setup the scoops were closed off. Can someone shed some light on this for me please?
Yes, you had to order the 400 to get the 400 hood. He should get a PHS package and see if the 326 or the hood is original. Ram air had open scoops among other things.
thanks all, I will pass along all of this, and try to get him on this board too.
On a seperate note, is there a repair kit for the console clock, mine looks great inside, but the wound coils have some broke wires. Heck even an instruction on repairs would be great, that looks to be the only issue with it.
wow, you guys are on top of things. I'm getting so much resistance from this guy it's not funny. I just told him to go aead and rebuild with the scoops. He says he has the build sheet, "little old lady was the original owner, no way she swapped the hood." Oh well, mine is not all original and I love the heck out of it, bouhgt it off this site actually. 2nd '67 vert, kicked myself in the pants for selling the first.
1967 had a 3F on the cowl tag, decklid drilled for 400 emblem lower passenger side), 400 grilles with chrome L shaped inserts and complete fill in of the bumper to core support (no holes) among the 400 hood.
As well, the air cleaner should be chrome louvered, and the valve covers chrome.
Block will most likely be YT automatic or WZ manual..there are other 400 codes, but very, very rare.
WQ, WI, WU, XN...maybe a few others..
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1967 Starlight black PMD Engineering 400 Auto 1968 Alpine Blue 400 4 speed 1968 Verdoro Green 400 HO 4 speed 2013 1LE 2SS/RS Inferno Orange Camaro.
Looked at docs. It's a regular 326 2 barrel car. There's no extra charge for a special hood so it wasn't dealer installed. Most likely the 'old lady' paid a body shop to put the 400 hood on it.
1967 had a 3F on the cowl tag, decklid drilled for 400 emblem lower passenger side), 400 grilles with chrome L shaped inserts and complete fill in of the bumper to core support (no holes) among the 400 hood.
As well, the air cleaner should be chrome louvered, and the valve covers chrome.
Block will most likely be YT automatic or WZ manual..there are other 400 codes, but very, very rare.
WQ, WI, WU, XN...maybe a few others..
what's the scoop on the XN? How very, very rare is it?
I thought that when they started shipping RA cars in 67 that the scoops were closed off and the RA hardware was in the trunk. I recall hearing that some of them got to the dealership missing this hardware because the quality control people removed it, unaware that it actually belonged with the car. Myth or no?
I have not seen any documentation to prove this story, and don't you think that if someone ordered Ram Air on their new pride and joy that they'd check to see if they got it?
Highly unlikely.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
I thought that when they started shipping RA cars in 67 that the scoops were closed off and the RA hardware was in the trunk. I recall hearing that some of them got to the dealership missing this hardware because the quality control people removed it, unaware that it actually belonged with the car. Myth or no?
I actually have heard that rumor also (maybe from HPP). From what I remember the quality control people took out the RA hardware because they thought someone made a mistake but putting it in there. Is this a "Firebird Mystery?"
Ya, remember reading it years ago. Security checked cars before leaving plant, and thought someone was try'n to slip parts out. More then likely, they just wernt availible yet. Happened alot back then.
I thought that when they started shipping RA cars in 67 that the scoops were closed off and the RA hardware was in the trunk. I recall hearing that some of them got to the dealership missing this hardware because the quality control people removed it, unaware that it actually belonged with the car. Myth or no?
I spoke with Jim Mattison at length a few Sundays ago about Ram Air cars.. One answer I can undoubtedly and positively answer is that open and closed scoops have different part numbers.
The other regards the RA packages in trunks. Jim asserts that this in part is true and those packages were sent back to GM parts bins, only to be resent back to the bill to dealer after the L67 RPO coded RA cars left Lordstown.
We continued the conversation over the next few hours and another piece of information was that all of the RA cars for 67 were built late in the game..June & July of 67, which, without Jim directly making a direct 1+1=2, we, or anyone could make a presumption that during the quality inspection or other final checks, this package could have been deemed an attempt of "theivery" and the dutiful employee taking those parts from the trunk.
Henceforth, I conclude that some 75-80k of 82,000 Firebirds had already rolled off the line by then June/July (L67 production), at one plant, 3 shifts. To see "extra parts" in a trunk in one of 65 L67 RPO code (1967 RA cars) late in the production fits the shaded commentary that yes, the pans were likely unknowingly removed without true knowledge of line employees of the new RPO code 1 of 65). There were 11-13k Birds rolling off one line between late December and July. To see a weird package in the trunk after inspecting "X" amount of cars a day, one shift, over 7 months, I would have removed those "extra" parts as well.
Without having a true line worker from Lordstown from June/July of 67 to factually comment regarding this issue, one must come to their own educated answer.
Hope this helps.
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1967 Starlight black PMD Engineering 400 Auto 1968 Alpine Blue 400 4 speed 1968 Verdoro Green 400 HO 4 speed 2013 1LE 2SS/RS Inferno Orange Camaro.
Z-bird this artical in HPP is SO FAR from the truth about that car it is rediculus...That car in question was originally a 350 car that had transplanted a RA motor and componets in it..In fact the car has no VIN's under the cowl and it also was a rusty car as well as the original was...the emblems on the hood that they state as rare die cast were stuck on the car by the guy that did the body change over, In fact the emblems were carved out of wood then made into a very poor die cast by a guy in North Carolina....The car is everything but correct and for HPP to use it in an artical is really poor as they should at the very least know a little about the car prior to writting that artical..
The thought the parts were stolen and returned is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard! What kind of idiot would think that someone spending the huge bucks (the price was huge bucks back in those days) would just blow off the missing parts on delivery?
BS! Ovbiously the idiot who dreamed up this hogwash never dealt with new car customers! All one would need is to spend one week dealing with new car customers, and the answer would be clear.
I didn't focus in on all the details in the post, so I mignt not have noticed whatever. One thing to keep in mind is that they would do anything to get the birds off of the lot. One doggy bone was to bolt on 400 hoods for free. This informantion came from a new-car make-ready Pontiac technician. But what would he know or what qualifications would he have? All he did was personally bolt togther the pieces, not a self appointed expert.
The thought the parts were stolen and returned is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard! What kind of idiot would think that someone spending the huge bucks (the price was huge bucks back in those days) would just blow off the missing parts on delivery?
BS! Ovbiously the idiot who dreamed up this hogwash never dealt with new car customers.
Read the entire thread over again.
The parts were not "stolen" They were taken from the line before delivery to customer. If what you are asserting as true, the dealer would have had to replace the cam change the 670 heads to 97/997 heads, trim the 400 hood for the pan. There is way too much in your "theory" to hold water.
The RA cars were delivered to the dealer with the 744 cam, 997 heads, proper carb, everything EXCEPT the RA pans.
The L-67 option was $263. This included modifying a set of 670 heads to 997 RA heads. 997 heads were not specially cast heads, but were pulled from the line and extensive head work done to them. I know, because I have replicated the 997 RA head myself. This includes machining down 16 spring pads to accept taller springs, different spring pressures, changing cam from an 066 to 744. That was the major cost of the option.
Back in the day, $300 (comparative price of the L67 package) got you a port job and bowls blended, thinner head gaskets, different springs and carb and distributor recurve from Royal Pontiac (Bobcat).
Could all the Royal Bobcat owners be telling fallacies? (About what $300 bought back in 1967) Comparing $263 L67 RPO code over the Royal Package. The Royal packages included 1-3 stages and the most was around $325 and included all of the above.
Three pieces of stamped metal and two hood scoops and a few foam filters probably equated to $50. If you look at how much a power window set up cost for a 67 ($100.13) there is a lot more material and labor cost there for the windows (regulators, motors, harness and switches than a carb tub, air cleaner lid, upper RA hood pan and scoops. (making a cost comparison)
I have heard the same story from 3 of the top GM guys that were there. Does it really matter? Not really...but make an informed comment before you refute 40 years of the same pattern.
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1967 Starlight black PMD Engineering 400 Auto 1968 Alpine Blue 400 4 speed 1968 Verdoro Green 400 HO 4 speed 2013 1LE 2SS/RS Inferno Orange Camaro.
Amervo, I agree with you as the dealers would do just about anything to "make a sale" I know of 2 67's I have owned that were painted a different color to make the sale for the customer...Then why not change the hood for one?..I also know of a dealer who took an order for a car that the Factory would not put the interior and exterior colors together..The dealer then offered the potential owner to pick a car on the lot and they would change it to the colors they wished....The cutomer then re=ordered the car in their second choice of color combos and wainted till the factory built it....I know this as I own that car in question and have the paperwork to prove it from the ordering dealer...Now the RA pans returned, WHY? the window sticker clearly stated RAM AIR car. All the factory had to do was look at the car then the invoice or the window sticker to see they belonged with that car (if indeed they were in the trunk),,,I am sure that all these Firebirds were inspected prior to leaving GM..Another theroy...did they look to see if the cars had space saver spares? or full spares? Also I beleive that all Ram Air cars were ordered by a customer and not a dealer for dealer inventory as they were special cars and very pricey...IMO..This alone would be enough to see that these cars left the Factory correct.
Originally Posted by Amervo
The thought the parts were stolen and returned is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard! What kind of idiot would think that someone spending the huge bucks (the price was huge bucks back in those days) would just blow off the missing parts on delivery?
BS! Ovbiously the idiot who dreamed up this hogwash never dealt with new car customers! All one would need is to spend one week dealing with new car customers, and the answer would be clear.
I didn't focus in on all the details in the post, so I mignt not have noticed whatever. One thing to keep in mind is that they would do anything to get the birds off of the lot. One doggy bone was to bolt on 400 hoods for free. This informantion came from a new-car make-ready Pontiac technician. But what would he know or what qualifications would he have? All he did was personally bolt togther the pieces, not a self appointed expert.
I read it all. The one piece of BS that I can find is that the parts were taken out of the trunk before they left the plant. I have worked at many assembly plants and visited many more during business hours if you know what I mean. If the parts were removed then I would think it would be sercurity that removed them. The plants have always been real big on hiring the 'most challenged' individuals as sercurity and they like to check the trunks of everything leaving the grounds as they pass out of the gate. Anything loose in a trunk gets taken out and put to the side. Ask questions later. When the questions were asked and the cars came in without their parts the cars sat on the dealership lots until the parts came in and were installed. Not a big deal, nothing to argue about, nothing you can prove, just something that could be true. What difference does it make? The cars all got their parts, maybe some with a minor delay.
The 400 hood thing is sitting there steaming like....... If any dealer put a 400 hood on a car that wasn't a 400 car then what difference does that even make? How is it any different than the hundreds that have done this to their own cars? The cars are either 400 cars or not. It doesn't add any value to have a dealer add a 400 hood. Not any more value than a dealer adding a Camaro spoiler. Value that comes from factory ordered options comes from only options ordered and they will show up on the PHS docs.
Jim, In referencwe to the HPP artical...That stated the RA pans in the trunk...That article is SO wrong about the car in it why would anyone beleive the part (in that artical) that the RA pans were removed?
Jim this goes back to the guy who claims the 326 car he owns came with that 400 hood when it was new...That could be true.
Originally Posted by Fbody69
The 400 hood thing is sitting there steaming like....... If any dealer put a 400 hood on a car that wasn't a 400 car then what difference does that even make? How is it any different than the hundreds that have done this to their own cars? The cars are either 400 cars or not. It doesn't add any value to have a dealer add a 400 hood. Not any more value than a dealer adding a Camaro spoiler. Value that comes from factory ordered options comes from only options ordered and they will show up on the PHS docs.
I've heard it from a few different sources. It has a certain GM plant 'ring' to it. If you worked there you would believe it. It doesn't matter anyway. Why not leave it as a good story?
I agree..But the other site member was asking if it was possible for his friends car to have a 400 hood on his 326 car when new.he got many replies that simply said NO...whereas the answer is simply It could have been deleivered that way from the dealer.
Jim this goes back to the guy who claims the 326 car he owns came with that 400 hood when it was new...That could be true.
Originally Posted by Fbody69
The 400 hood thing is sitting there steaming like....... If any dealer put a 400 hood on a car that wasn't a 400 car then what difference does that even make? How is it any different than the hundreds that have done this to their own cars? The cars are either 400 cars or not. It doesn't add any value to have a dealer add a 400 hood. Not any more value than a dealer adding a Camaro spoiler. Value that comes from factory ordered options comes from only options ordered and they will show up on the PHS docs.
Sure, it could be true. It's just a story too. Doesn't make the car worth anything extra. I looked at all the paperwork on that 326 car and there is nothing, just like if it never happened. Good story but without proof.......
About cars being delivered to dealers. It's the dealers responsibility to check car for damage, missing parts, etc, before signing papers. Any damage found, or missing parts has to be documemted. Then GM will reinburse dealer to repair or replace missing parts and accessories. GM dont send them out. You have to order and bill back to GM.
Why is this important? Cause if the dealer had to order them, guess what? There would be no stock at the warehouses yet. We still go through this on new models. And takes a small act of congress to get any parts pulled from assembly line stock. Cant say it was like that in 67, but has been since i started in 79.
Jim, Here is the original post....I think the correct answer is (drum roll please) that Yes it could have come that way from the dealer BUT if your friend is "intending a full restoration" then a flat hood would be correct.
Originally Posted by coyote11
I have a friend who purchased a '67 HT with a 326 and a powerglide. He says the person he bought it from is the original owner and told him the hood (with hood scoupes) was the factory item. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this for him, as he intends a full restoration. I was under the impression that if you didn't have the 400 motor, you didn't have scoops, and if it was a RA setup the scoops were closed off. Can someone shed some light on this for me please?
Poncho, there were several checks on these cars before they arrived to the dealer, As they were delivered by indipentend truckers who could be very dishonest.
Originally Posted by ponchoshop
About cars being delivered to dealers. It's the dealers responsibility to check car for damage, missing parts, etc, before signing papers. Any damage found, or missing parts has to be documemted. Then GM will reinburse dealer to repair or replace missing parts and accessories. GM dont send them out. You have to order and bill back to GM.
Why is this important? Cause if the dealer had to order them, guess what? There would be no stock at the warehouses yet. We still go through this on new models. And takes a small act of congress to get any parts pulled from assembly line stock. Cant say it was like that in 67, but has been since i started in 79.
I did not see where the owner thought his car was worth more with or without that hood...I seemed like he was just asking if it was possible.
Just as possible as the 'little old lady' went to the nice bodyshop owner and asked if he would put a 400 hood on her car. To me, dealership installed parts added 'to make the sale' are no different than parts added at the bodyshop around the corner from the dealership.
I tottally agree!! even more so..It is no different then anyone adding them many years later.
Originally Posted by Fbody69
Originally Posted by 67 Firebird 400
I did not see where the owner thought his car was worth more with or without that hood...I seemed like he was just asking if it was possible.
Just as possible as the 'little old lady' went to the nice bodyshop owner and asked if he would put a 400 hood on her car. To me, dealership installed parts added 'to make the sale' are no different than parts added at the bodyshop around the corner from the dealership.
