Find answers to Frequently Asked Questions for First Generation Firebirds that have been asked and answered on FGF. Special thanks needs to be given to all the FGF members who took the time to respond to other member's questions.
Miscellaneous - All
Q: Classic Car Insurance
Anyone know of any insurance companies that will insure classic cars?
A: I have what’s called an “agreed value” policy on my 1969 claissic. Get an agreed value policy, NOT a stated value. Stated value is what you “state” the car to be worth. It simply sets a maximum dollar amount that your insurance company is liable for in case of a loss. They will do all they can to keep from paying this amount. With this policy, after an accident, an appraiser will look your car over to establish a dollar amount as to what your car is worth. If you have a policy like this, I would advise you to take many pictures of your car’s exterior, interior, engine bay, and underneath (if restored) and perhaps even an have an independent appraisal done. You would need to show these to the adjuster in the event of a loss. Anyway, the adjuster will undoubtedly try to appraise your car to be less than the “stated value” that you insured it for – and when they settle the claim, that’s what they pay you.
An “agreed value” policy establishes a car’s value BEFORE a loss or a claim is submitted. There’s no appraisal because the isurance company and you have “agreed” on the car’s value. If your car gets totaled, they pay you for what you insured the car to be worth. Drawback – you’re limited to 3000 miles a year with your car, and it must be kept in a locked garage. However, my insurance company informed me that this year they will start offering agreed value policies to people who wish to drive more than 3000 miles – for a slightly higher premium of course. Right now, I pay $125 a year for this policy.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:01 pm
Q: Before an Accident
I got into an accident with his 1968 firebird (other guy’s fault). My bird is worth around $5,000, but blue book doesn’t show that. What the insurance company is planning on giving me probably won’t cover the damage. Any suggestions?
A: The question of what the cars worth is,should be settled BEFORE an accident. (Not what you wanted to hear). Read the article in Year One catalog. I have had dealings with several older cars and insurance companies, have found State Farm( a friend whos a body man calls them “State Fraud”) to be totally unrealistic. I have been very happy with Nationwide for the last 10 yrs. They will let you USE your car as a daily driver and have an Actual Cash Value policy with deductbles that fit your budget. There are several collector car insurance companies out there but they wont let you use your car on a daily basis. The policy I have with Nationwide will . what this means is if you go to the store in your collector car to get a loaf of bread and have an accident… most collector car insurance companies would say you are SOL. They also place mileage restrictions on the policy. I have a friend that takes his 70 Judge to shows and cant even go to a restaurant for a sandwich because car would be out of his sight. Even if your car isnt a daily driver it may behove you to get this type of insurance for reasons stated.
Several quailty photos provided may substantiate your claim of the cars worth. Also CPI Cars of Particular Interest will have a book value for your car. Altho not 100% fair (as value is hinged on condition ,options,history,etc.) this is a good start. The other thing in your favor is that it was the other guys fault. But keep in mind that Lawyers get a slice of recovery.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:02 pm
Q: Storage Information
I unfortunatly live in the northern regions where I can not or should not drive my Firebird. What is the recommended steps or procedures for winter storage.
A: I have some general recommendations located on the First Generation Firebird web site at: https://FirstGenFirebird.org/car-storage-information/
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:07 pm
Q: Storage Bags
Any idea where I can obtain a storage bag for a car? I hear you can buy a huge zip-lock bag to store a car in… Any suggestions?
A: There are products for long term storage that really work. One is a car bag that is sealed and has a small fan. The other is a bag that is sealed tight and uses a normal shop vac to purge air and moisture out. While sealed air tight, it has a desicent to control moisture.
Some of these products are sold by a company called BW Inc. (1-800-950-2210 ask for a catalog). Also look in Hemmings for other types of storage bags. The bags seem to be the way to go for controlling humidity. Oh and make sure the gas tank is full.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:09 pm
Q: Totals for 1968
I just got my package from PHS which is very informative, except it didn’t have the production numbers for 1968 – the year I am (most) interested in. It had the # of coupes vs. conv. made for each of the “other” years – 1967 & 1969. Does anyone have them for 1968? And does the Big Red Firebird Book break them down any further? After reading the description of it, it sounded like it might have the numbers of how many 1968 conv. had a 400 and an automatic, which is what I really want to know.
A: For the 1968 Firebird, here are some Production Totals. Note, some figures are from research by Fred Simmonds (PMD) while other numbers are estimates based on the Engine Production Log and Coupe -vs- Conv Ratio….
1968 FIREBIRD PRODUCTION
Coupes: 90,152 Conv: 16,960 400 Option 21,000* (est. based on 21,354 engines built) 400 Auto (base) 11,000* (est. based on 11,151 engines built) 400 4-spd (base) 7,500* (est. based on 7,563 engines built) 400 Conv. 3,500* (est. based on coupe -vs- conv. ratio) 400 H.O. 2,087 400 H.O. 4spd 1,400* (est. based on 1,415 engines built) 400 H.O. auto 650* (est. based on 684 engines built) 400 H.O. conv. 350* (est. based on coupe -vs- conv. ratio) 400 Ram Air I 413* (total engines: 414) 400 Ram Air II 110* (total engines: 127) 400 Ram Air Conv. 12* (per Fred Simmonds 7/89)
Now, wouldn’t it be nice if someone with access to the original databases could comment on these (and other) totals ? Perhaps correct or validate any of these ‘assumed’ numbers ??
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:22 pm
Q: H.O. Firebirds were Built for 1968
How many 1968 H.O. Firebirds were built?
A: The only known figure is from the 1968 Engine Production Log.
2099 total Firebird H.O. engines produced 1415 4spd engines 684 auto engines
From here, everything is an estimate based on input from several die-hard Pontiac enthusiasts using the Coupe -to- Conv. ratio….
400 H.O. (coupe & conv) 2087 400 H.O. conv. 350 400 H.O. 4spd 1400 400 H.O. auto 650 400 H.O. conv w/4spd 250 400 H.O. conv w/auto 100
Obviously, the only sure way to determine exactly how many Firebirds were built with the H.O. option is to research the Billing History Files at PMD. This would require viewing (or scanning ?) all BH’s from 1968, looking for Firebirds, then counting only those with the 348 engine option sales code. To break things down further, one would have to sort the count by body style code and trans option. This could be done given the interest by many enthusiasts out there. However, since these files are somewhat ‘controlled’ by a private company who sells the information, it’s not likely to happen anytime soon.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:24 pm
Q: Ram Air Production Totals for 1968
I have heard conflicting information for the Ram Air production totals for the 1968 Firebird. What is the correct totals?
A: With all the confusion about Production Totals regarding the 1968 Ram AirFirebirds, I thought I’d run this by you…Once upon a time, Fred Simmonds (PMD) published various break-downs ofspecific totals for variousGTOs, Firebirds including the 1968 Ram Air Firebirds. This ‘matrix’ listed(12) 1968 Ram Air Firebirdshaving been built (including I and II). Then, more recently we were told”the total of 12 is not correct”.This due to the RA II coming out in May 1968 and only VINs from May 1968 toAug 1968 have been searched.Well, if thats the case, where did the below numbers come from in the first place ? Also, how can it besaid how many Ram Air I Firebirds (or GTOs) were built in 1968 ? What about other cars/years ?If the files have not been searched for 1968 RA I Firebirds from Aug 1967 toMay 1968, who had the time togo through other years to search for JUDGE totals, or RAIV, or T/As orSuper Dutys ? Whats to say these totals are correct ? Any thoughts ?
*68 RA I ............. 413 ? *68 RA II ............ 110 *68 RA Conv.......... 12 ? *68 RA I conv....... 7 ? *68 RA I coupe..... 407 ? *68 RA II conv...... 8 *68 RA II coupe.... 102 *68 RA I 4spd...... 321 ? *68 RA I auto...... 92 ? *68 RA II 4spd..... 98 *68 RA II auto...... 12 *68 RA I conv 4spd.... 6 ? *68 RA I conv auto.... 1 ? *68 RA II conv 4spd... 7 *68 RA II conv auto... 1
A: Fred Simmonds published a matrix of Production Totals many years ago and listed (12) Ram Air Firebird conv’s built in 1968. Of these, (9) were RAII and (3) were RAI. More recently however, Jim Mattison has said that the actual numbers are unknown since no one knows how many RA I’s were built between Sep 1967 and May 1968 when RA II production started. It is confirmed that only (8) RA II conv’s were built. The problem here according to Jim is that it would take a great deal of scanning through microfische to find every RA I Firebird built comparerd to the RA II which only required going through 3 or 4 months of VINs. Only (5) 1968 Firebird conv’s w/RA I have been accounted for to date (4-speeds)…. Verdoro green, Mayfair Maize, Starlight Black.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:26 pm
Q: Surviving Totals
Is there records of surviving Firebirds? I specifically have a question of how many 1967 convertibles with a 400 still running?
A: I find it interesting that people pay money to companies to tell them how many of a certain car are still left. The best you can get is a state-by-state report on cars that are registered. You know as well as I that there are probably more 1st Gen. Firebirds UNregistered, sitting in garages, fields, backyards, etc. than there are of them restored, original still on the road. As for the 1967 400 conv. Firebird, I’d guess around less than 200 based on restored cars in the POCI Registry, various Firebird Clubs, cars for sale, etc. Surviving totals is something that is very difficult to determine unless the car is a Shelby, Hemi Cuda conv, 1969 T/A conv, 1967-1968 RA Firebird conv.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:28 pm
Q: 350 HO for 1969
I have a 1969 350 HO. How many of these were built. I have heard conflicting informatin.
A: …The following is from Pontiac Engine Production Logs (1969 Firebird):
350 HO "WN" (manual) 2,455 350 HO "XC" (auto) 2,670 350 HO "YR" (auto) 2 (early prod.type ?) ((This low-prod. version may have been Trans. related))
There were 56,052 Standard 350 Firebird engines produced (Man. & Auto) The Engine Log lists (2) types of “Auto” Trans applications…..
350 Std. "XB" (auto) 11,673 350 Std. "YE" (auto) 35,915
This difference was related to the type of Transmission (M-31, M-38).
Total 1969 Firebird Production was 87,011. With only 5,127 350 HO engines produced, I’d say there probably are not too many originals left.
***NOTE: So far, no one from PMD, PHS or otherwise has come forward to comment on the Engine Production Log Totals. Are these totals for total number of vehicles produced or just the engine assy ? I’m more inclined to believe there were usually more engines built than cars. For many years, there have been all sorts of articles written that use the Engine Log Totals as “Total Cars Produced” and I doubt that is entirely true (unless someone can produce actual Vehicle Production Totals from the Billing History Files.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:31 pm
Q: More Information About Total Produced
Where can I find more total information.
A: I have more information located in the specific year sections on the First Generation Firebird web site. Detailed information is not available at this time until a good database is found with all the options. Point your browser to the following web pages:
1967: https://FirstGenFirebird.org/1967-info/1967-pontiac-firebird-history/
1968: https://FirstGenFirebird.org/1968-info/1968-pontiac-firebird-history/
1969: https://FirstGenFirebird.org/1969-info/1969-pontiac-firebird-history/
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:34 pm
Q: Value of 1967 Coupe
I was wondering if there was anyway that anyone would know how to find out the value of a certain car. I have a 1967 Firebird. The car has a 326 H.O. Powerglide Tranny. Red w/ Black vinyl roof. Air, Power Steering and brakes, custom interior which is almost flawless, console, about 100,xxx original miles and pretty nice condition. Fresh paint also. This is also a California car. Absolutely NO RUST!!! Any help is GREATLY appreciated!!!
A: About $7950 is a good estimate. Higher dollars go to the 400 cars and convertibles (roughly: +$1000 f/Conv., +$1000 larger “basic” engine, etc…). Also remember it’s worth what the buyer is willing to pay for it. Ram Airs, Sprints, and H.O.s are getting top dollars and are sought after by collectors.
Est. value on 06-2000
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 7:56 pm
Q: Value of 1968 Convertible
What is the value of my 1968 Firebird 400 Convertible?
A: Depending on your market, you should be able to ask $9500 if your car is in GOOD shape. Remember to add or subtract value for special options (roughly: -$1000 f/Coupe, -$1000 smaller “basic” engine, etc…). First Generation Firebird values have been increasing by 10% a year. You have to also remember the value for your car is relative to what people are willing to pay. Ram Airs, Sprints, and H.O.s are getting top dollars and are sought after by collectors.
Est. value on 06-2000
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 8:00 pm
Q: Value of 1969 Coupe
What is a 1969 Firebird with the 250 engine and a four speed manual transmission that needs to be fully restored worth, and what is the same car that is fully restored worth?
A: All numbers approximate and differ with regions and potential buyers.
Needs restored – $3000 (assuming body is intact) Fully restored – $7500 (more for a convertible and special options)
Again these are estimates and it boils down to what someone is willing to pay and how bad they want it. Add more to the value for special options (roughly: +$1000 f/Conv., +$1000 larger “basic” engine, etc…). Ram Airs, Sprints, and H.O.s are getting top dollars and are sought after by collectors. Trans Ams are near impossible to put a price on!
Est. value on 06-2000
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 8:05 pm
Q: Value for a 1968 Firebird 400 H.O.
Is $17,000 USD good value for a 400HO (L74) (code 348), #s matching & includes build sheet , is a solid # 2 car — Fully restored with NOS Quarters and front fenders, all original floors, frame rails and Mint undercarriage, 55,000 Original Miles, and Painted the Turquois irid.?
What is this car worth to you? It has basic options & includes disc brakes, rallys, rear spoiler , 400 hood and tach, ps, p ant, No air or Pw.. He wants $17500 for it. Is this too high?
A: I would have to agree that 17K is defintely high for any non ram air coupe (even a high 2 coupe like you described).
Unfortunately out of all the low production high performance first gen birds the 1968 400ho and 1969 400 ho and 400 RA III cars fetch only minimal premiums above the std 400 models from what ive seen. the reason for this im guessing is that when you look at what the 400ho ‘added’ over the std 400 you see that it wasnt all that much , particularly for the auto cars. the 400 ho in 1968 (there was no RA III firebird in 68), recieved longbranch exh manifolds and the perf upgrade ‘068’ cam (4spd only) and carb (4speed only). as you can see the 400 ho auto cars werent much different than their std 400 brethren while the 4speed 400ho counterparts did give you a little more bang for your ho buck.
the ram air cars in 67-8-9 are a different story. these cars all came with functional induction, much more radical cams, high flow heads, ‘bulletproof’ 3.90 posi rears and their own specific carbs. of course back in teh day you really PAID for this option (~25% over sticker) and those 3.90s made normal driving , well lets say it wasnt your avg grocery getter. these cars today are worth thier weight in gold and are very difficult to come by esp with their original matching numbers drivetrains in tact (ie they were factory RACE cars its no wonder!). anyhow in my biased mind anyway ‘real ram air’ birds incl 1967 ra I, 1968 RA I, II and 1969 RA IV cars. one could make an argument for 1969 400 RA III cars that actually came with functional induction (<100 made). however these cars, didnt get anything in the gearing dept (ie no 3.90) or special heads..again thats my biased opinion though… ;> u gotta take it for what its worth!!
PS the other relativly big hop up in pricing is conv vs coupe…the convert pricing has really blossomed in the last 3 yrs…
anyway here are my price range estimates for all the 400 cars 67-8. im assuming solid driver, complete high 3 low 2 (nice solid driver cond).
1967 400 coupe auto $6500 400 coupe 4speed $8000 400 coupe ram air1 auto $15500 ? 400 coupe ram air1 4spd $17500 ? 400 conv auto $11000 400 conv 4speed $13500 400 conv ram air1 auto $40000-60000 ?? (they made only 2 cars!) 400 conv ram air1 4spd $40000-60000 ?? (they made only 6 cars!) 1968 400 coupe auto $6500 400 coupe 4speed $8000 400 coupe ho auto $8500 (rick for high 2 car maybe add30% = 11-11.5k) 400 coupe ho 4speed $11000 400 coupe ram air1 auto $14000 * ? 400 coupe ram air1 4spd $17500 ? 400 coupe ram air2 auto $35000-50000 ?? very very few ever hit the market 400 coupe ram air2 4spd $40000-60000 ?? very very few ever hit the market 400 conv auto $11000 400 conv 4speed $13500 400 conv ho auto $13500 400 conv ho 4speed $17000 400 conv ram air1 auto $30000-35000 * ?? very few ever hit the market 400 conv ram air1 4spd $40000-60000 ?? very few ever hit the market 400 conv ram air2 auto $50000-75000 ?? very very few ever hit the market 400 conv ram air2 4spd $55000-85000 ?? very very few ever hit the market
NOTE: * downgraded cam (068) for all 1968 RA1 auto cars lowers my $$ somewhat
? is a good guesswork estimate…could be *considerably higher* depending on the options, cond, absolutel originality, current market, deep pockets of the buyer etc…like anything rare its supply and demand plus the whimsy/’gotta have it factor’ of the buyer….
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 8:08 pm
Q: Sprint Identification for 1968
Looking at 1968 6 cyl. firebird, 4 barrel, single exhaust. Supposed to be all original. Is this right or is it supposed to be dual exhaust? What do I need to check next?
A: IF its a Sprint It would have single exhaust but have a dual outlet exhaust manifold. A “Y”-pipe would join the two outlets into one header pipe. There are several Sprint only identifying features/parts, all of which a 1 bbl could be upgraded to. If the engine code is ZD and the VIN matches the engine VIN# then its a correct block for a Sprint.
Heres a list of some of the other features of a Sprint 1968:
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larger crankshaft harmonic balancer
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4 bbl Q-jet #7028261 (M/T) 1968
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Chrome lid 4 bbl air cleaner
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4 bbl intake manifold
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Special dual outlet exhaust manifold
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4bbl only cylinder head with dual valve springs,smaller combustion chamber for higher compression ratio
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Larger lift and longer duration camshaft
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distributor is recurved for more advance
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Sprint badges on the rocker panel mouldings
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3.55 rear end ratio
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Rod bearings were also the heavy duty ones but thats not apparent without engine disassembly
So as you can see all of the parts except the engine block could be added to a base 1bbl car. If you are really serious about this get the history on this car from PHS. They can fax it to you if you are in a hurry.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 8:10 pm
Q: Car Search and Appraisal
I am ready to buy my first Firebird. How do I find them and know what they are worth.
A: I see that a few of you are looking to buy. Let me share my story with you about how I found my dream bird. When I bought my 1968 400 convertible three years ago, I did a nationwide search. I employed a search agent I found in Hemmings called “The Locator”. For $25 he’ll compile a list of cars per your description, for $50 he’ll call the sellers and add info about the status of the car, and for $100 he’ll negotiate the deal for you. This was three years ago, so he may not be around anymore or his prices may have changed. Look in Hemmings under Services.
I also did my own search and found most but not all of the cars on the Locators list by going to my local library and search all the old Hemmings they had (2 years worth!). You’d be surprised how many cars in Hemmings do not sell, and then the sellers give up and put the car back in storage. 6 months later they get a call out of the blue and are very eager to sell.
Once you narrow your search and get serious about a car, call and find out as much as you can over the phone and ask for pictures. Then, if you are still interested, go to the library and get the yellow pages for the closest metro area to your seller. Find an auto appraiser and have him be your eyes. For $100 or so, you can get an independent third party’s opinion and a documented appraisal of the car. I did this and after I was satisfied, I negotiated the deal for less than the appraisal and then flew from Moline, Illinois to Denver and finalized the deal in the airport parking lot. Drove the car 900 miles home. What a trip! My wife told me she was pregnant with our first child while I was on my way back, but that’s another story.
Anyway, for what its worth, that’s how I found my Firebird, will probably employ this strategy again when I get the itch for another.
Any proposed updates, changes, pictures, and/or corrections, please use our comment section below (may need to click on permalink to access comments feature). Information is subject to change and offered as is without any warranties or guarantees. Please review our Term's Of Use for more information.
Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 8:11 pm
Q: Buying a First Generation Firebird
What do I need to look for when I buy an old Firebird.
A: To buy a first generation Firebird, you will want to first decide what year you would be interested in. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. For little long run headaches, you will want to look for a solid car. Then you will want to decide if you want a car to fix up or someone else’s project car. The last will cost you more but should be cheaper in the long run. Then there are two schools of thought to what an old car should be, factory original and modified. You will want to decide which you would like.
Buying a car that you want to do little work on and is near factory original, look for the following:
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The body should have little rust. Get on the ground and look on the back of the body panels for patch jobs and quicky fixes. Look for signs of repairs which occurred from an accident (drill holes, lots of bondo, and/or bent metal supports/parts).
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Read the body tag and vin to make sure you are getting an authentic car (Paint, trim, numbers). I have pages on the web site to help do this for the 1967, 1968, and 1969.
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Look the equipment, engine, and accessories over. Determine if they are near original and not been replaced with incorrect parts. Make sure they are in good condition and do not seem to have excessive wear. For example, make sure the engine is a 350 if the owner said it was a 350. There a specific codes on it that will help you determine this. Look at the axle to determine if it is original or has been replaced with another axle, say from a Skylark. Again, I have a few web pages to help you determine this on a 1968. Avoid cars that are missing a lot of original equipment since their value will be less. The most valuable cars are the ones with the original equipment.
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See if the owner has original documentation for the car. Billing history, invoice, window sticker, manifest, etc.. A billing history can be purchased from Pontiac Historical Services (found on the links page) if there is time. The billing history tells you some of the original equipment that should have come on the car.
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Take the car for a drive in a number of conditions. If something seems wrong, there probable is something wrong. If you need to, take it to a knowledgeable friend or mechanic to have them look it over. They might find something you overlooked or determine that you should not buy the car.
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Avoid a car that seems to have seen a lot of wear and millage. You should be able to determine this from the undercarriage since most quick fixes for a sale focus on the exterior body. I always look at the front end to see if it looks loose and worn.
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Take a soft-sided magnet to check for excessive bondo in the body panels.
The above won’t guarantee you a successful purchase but it will help you be a better informed buyer.
A: Potential Problems to look for:
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Research Pros and Cons for 1967’s 326 V8 vs. 1968-1969 350
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Dash heater controls, cowls, convertible wells
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Non-functioning back-up lights on 1967s
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Match the VIN with the engine number on 1968 and newer
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Replacement parts for special options are hard to find (Ram Air, Sprint, etc..)
A: For All Models:
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You should also check the rear wheel wells. Feel around the lip for rot or bondo oozing through. Look where the wheelhouse connects to the rockers. This is a common area for rust
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Crawl under the back and look at the trunk drop off (this connects the trunk to the bottom of the rear quarter panel). There should be a body drain plug behind the wheel house. Sometimes you’ll just find a large hole. Look carefully at the trunk reinforcement rails. Rust is common around the front edge of these and at the back where they attach to the inner valence panel.
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Look carefully inside and out at the replaced quarter panels. GM quarters have long since been discontinued and there are many types of replacement or patch panels available. I’ve seen some really bad ‘hack’ jobs where the patch panel is quickly riveted over the top of a rusted original. A good inspection from the trunk side will usually reveal the quality of the work (in addition to the wheel lip/housing area. Also, if quarters were repaired, look at the floor pans for rust/repairs as well. Especially near the drivers feet and trunk/shock tower area.
For Convertible:
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From the trunk, check where the convertible top is bolted and look for rust or rust repair around the edges.
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 8:13 pm
Q: Shipping a Car
I am about ready to buy a Firebird but need to transport it from California to Maine. I can not drive it so what are my options.
A: When I shipped my 1968 350 conv. from Boston to Seattle I used Intercity Vanlines. They use only totally encloded trucks and were very good and very careful. I would highly recommend their service, but I’m not sure how competitively priced they are. Check out their web site at http://www.intercitylines.com/
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Content last modified: January 20, 2014 at 8:14 pm
Q: Custom Trim Option
I am confused that my car has the custom option trim (554) but it only has standard interior.
A: The Custom Trim Option with custom seats for the 1968 Firebird was identified on the Firewall Trim Tag as Style 22667 (conv) -or- 22637 (coupe). (22467 and 22437 were Std. Interiors). According to the sales literature, the Custom Trim Option (code 554) included the following…..
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Deluxe Wheel Discs
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Deluxe Steering Wheel
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Door and Quarter Trim (molded vinyl)
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Vinyl and Weave pattern Seats
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Roof Rail Mldgs
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Wheel Opening Mldgs
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Instrmt. Panel Grip (Grab Bar)
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Pedal Trim
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Dual Horns
There are other features that were apparently associated with the Custom Trim Option that were not so obvious such as the different (longer) window regulators. Some items have also been speculated to have been also included such as…
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160 mph Speedo
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“BIRD” Emblem on Glove Box Door
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Custom (Deluxe) Seat Belts (brushed metal buckles w/GM button)
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Small white “BIRD” etched onto fwd/lower corner of front side glass
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Windshield ‘A’ pillar Mldgs (interior) ??
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Wheel Trim Rings (when ordered w/Rally II wheel option)
All items in the Custom Trim Option could have been ordered individually on a 22467 (or 22437) car except the Deluxe Interior, 22667 (or 22637).
A: The body tag series number changed to reflect the custom trim option (Code 554) and had a different number for custom interior (26) or standard interior (24):
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22437 std interior with custom trim option (coupe)
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22467 “” (CONV)
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22637 deluxe interior with custom trim option (coupe)
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22667 “” (CONV)
A: Use following link to find more information about the Custom Trim Option on FGF: More Information
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Content last modified: January 25, 2014 at 10:11 am
Q: 1964 Pontiac Banshee
How does the Banshee play into the history for the Firebird.
A: If I remember correctly, the 3rd generation Corvette was already on the drawing boards, and the Banshee borrowed styling cues from that car. A couple of things that distinquished the Banshee from the Corvette was that the Banshee used a solid rear axle (to keep costs down, and make the car more affordable than the Corvette), and a unique clamshell door design. This was John Delorean’s pet project, and he really wanted it in production.
Two functional cars were produced (built by an outside coach builder). One was a 6 cylinder engine, the other had a V8. One was a hardtop, the other a roadster.
There was even a 4 passenger version that was proposed.
This was John Delorean’s pet project, and he really wanted it in production. But GM wasn’t interested in erroding the Corvette’s marketshare, and the top dogs nixed the project. Delorean was handed the Camaro to build a Pontiac version as a consolation prize. This was also to be called the Banshee.
He wasn’t too happy about it all, but he lost the power struggle and gave in. By the time he relented, the Camaro was well under devel- opement, and his engineers had little time to make the Banshee distinquishable from the Camaro. Something less than 12 months. As it was, the car didn’t get to showrooms until Feb. 67. But they did suceed in creating a car that was much more than a copy of a Camaro. It’s styling and drivetrain differences made for a classic design that is timeless.
Sometime during all of this, someone looked up the word Banshee and found that one definition was that of a mythical demon-like figure who foretold of a death in the family. Banshee was dropped in favor of another Pontiac concept car dating back to the 50s, the Firebird. I’ve seen photos of prototypes bearing GM-X nameplates as well.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 5:09 pm
Q: Important Dates
What are some of the important production dates.
A: I’ve never seen any official Start/End Dates for 1967-1969 Firebird Production. Yet another thing the Billing History Files could provide… yeah, I know- this is all trivial stuff that really isn’t going to make a whole lot of difference to most people …however, it would be nice to know when the 1st 1967 Firebird rolled off the line, when the last rolled off, etc, etc…
What I’m aware of….
12/1966-2nd wk |
1st Firebird Produced |
February 23, 1967 |
Firebird Debut at Chicago AutoShow |
June-July 1967 |
Production period for 1967 Ram Air Firebird |
August 1967-5th wk |
Earliest known produced 1968 Firebird (in Registry) |
October 1967-2nd wk |
Earliest known produced 1968 Firebird RA I |
August 1967 – May 1968 |
Production period for 1968 Ram Air I Firebird/GTO |
January 1968 |
Use of Fiberglass Belted Tires begins on Firebird |
March 4, 1968 |
Van Nuys, CA Plant begins building Firebirds |
March 1968-4th wk |
Earliest 1968 Van Nuys Firebird (in Registry) |
May 14, 1968 |
Aprox. date last 1968 RA I Firebird produced |
May 20, 1968 |
Ram Air II engine becomes available for Firebird/GTO |
May 21, 1968 |
First Ram Air II Firebird (and GTO) produced |
June 6, 1968 |
Leather Option becomes available on Firebird |
July 7, 1968 |
Latest Invoice for Van Nuys 1968 Firebird (in Registry) |
July 29, 1968 |
1968 Engine Production Log Report Released |
August 6, 1968 |
Invoice date for last 1968 RA II Firebird |
August 1968-2nd wk |
Latest Build Date for 1968 Firebird (in Registry) |
March 1969 |
Trans Am Option became available |
1969 |
Norwood, OH Plant added for F-Body Production |
Febriaru 26, 1970 |
2nd Generation (1970) Firebird Debuts in Chicago |
As always, comments and corrections are welcome…
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 5:13 pm
Q: Mid-Year Changes for 1968
What were some of the mid-year changes that occurred for the 1968.
A: OK heres some of the items I have found over the last 30 yrs for 68s. Not completely in order.
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Tall hood tachs (used up 1967 ones).
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2 bulb front side marker (went away around SEPT).
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Glove box bird (used up 1967s).
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‘BIRD’ emblem was discontinued from std. interior glove box doors and possibly from custom.
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Knit weave vinyl inserts in the Custom option seats (contrary to myth that only early converts got the all madrid grain inserts, early hdtps did too.)
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Fuel gauge on standard gauge cars added 1/8 tank increments.i.e. 1/8,1/4,3/8,1/2 etc.
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OSRV mirror change to the ugly rectangular style.
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Bird glass ….no one can pin this one down as I’ve had every possible combo get these don’t think it was a late model addition or early model deletion.
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2 different lower style hood tach, along with RPM changes the face changed also. Both V-8s and OHC-6 were affected
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Addition of the trunk release as an option.
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Additional colors added to the lineup, called “Spring colors” (April)
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Everyone knows this one, RAII was substituted for RAI.
I’m sure I’ve forgot some, I will update as I remember. I will get into mechanical changes later. i.e. heard late 1968s came with variable ratio PS. Got 2 cars built 5th week July thats got reg.PS so show me.
A: Thanks for your list of 1968 Firebird Model Year Changes… Here are a few more:
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Fuel Filler Door Emblem (Early w/Finger Lift, Later Flat)
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Seat Belts (Early using Metal Buckles on even Std.Inter.cars)
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4Bbl Intake Manifold (9790140 early….9794234 mid-year)
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4Bbl Throttle Brkt. (9792242 early….9797415 mid-year)
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Pwr LH Bucket Seat (Mid-Year Option)
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Variable Ratio Power Steering (Mid-Year Option. in addition to P.S. ?)
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Rally I’s deleted from option list mid-year due to Tire Size Change
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Leather Seat Trim Option after June.. Custom Interior Only
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Switched from black washer fluid jar to a white jar
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Outside Mirror (Round/Rectangular)
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4Bbl Intake Manifold
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4Bbl Throttle Cable Bracket
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Hood Tach
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Seat Belts
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GloveBox Emblem
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Etched ‘Bird’ on Front Side Glass
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Ram Air I and Ram Air II engine
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H.O. & Ram Air Exhaust Manifolds
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Power Seat
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Leather Interior
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Variable Ratio Power Steering
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Fiberglass Belted Tires
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VIN started being stamped on engine blocks
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 5:17 pm
Q: Mid-Year Changes for 1968
What were some of the mid-year changes for the 1968 Firebird?
A: Your question is one that has puzzled many of us over the years. One of the projects we’ve been working on with all the Registry dat has been to try and establish the Production Part Variations and Mid-Year (V-2) Production Changes.
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Dash Grab Handle (Assist Bar)- Color-Keyed
Included with (and exclusive to) the Custom Trim Option. -
160mph Speedo
Standard on all 1968 Firebirds -
Headliner Side Trim Moldings – Coupe
Not entirely positive here but I believe what you refer to are the stainless trim moldings; possible unique to the Custom Trim Option. Standard would have been color-keyed or black moldings. -
4-Speed
Optional on all models; avail. as a Wide or Close Ratio. Close Ratio was mandatory option w/3.90 axle. -
Deluxe Interior- Custom Trim Option (Sales Code 554)
Available on all models. Included: Woven-Vinyl Seats, Molded Door/Qtr Trim, Deluxe Strg. Wheel, Pedal Trim, Dash Assist Handle, Wheel Opening Moldings, Deluxe Whl Covers, Dual Horns, Roof Rail Moldings, Interior Pillar/Headliner Moldings and Glove Box “Bird” emblem. NOTE: Some early cars w/this option came with Molded Grain Knit-weave Vinyl Seat Trim; 2nd type was Knited Vinyl Fabric. This appears to have only applied to a few colors. Also, the Window Regulators (manual) were different between Standard & Custom Trim due to length of Glass-Crank Mechanism (the splined rod the crank-handle attaches to). -
Glove Box Door “Bird” Emblem
Standard on all 1967 Firebirds; included with the Custom Trim Option in 1968. Also found on some early production Standard Trim Firebirds. Some late production Firebirds with Custom Trim do not have this “Bird” emblem. -
Custom (Deluxe) Seat Belts
Separate Option available on all models. Not included with the Custom Trim Option. Inconsistent Usage. Research has found some documented Firebirds with the Custom Belts (brushed-metal Latches) yet w/o the Custom Belt Option listed on the invoice. Speculate that this was either a production-glitch or an early- production pkg related to the “Bird” glass. -
Custom Pedal Trim
This was included with the Custom Trim Option and also available on all models separately. Also noted in Sales Literature that this trim was Std. on all V-8 models. -
“Bird” Glass (Front-Side)
A White “etched” (silk-screened) “Bird” image was applied to the Front Side Glass of some early production Firebirds. No mention of this was made in any Factory or Dealer Literature or Parts Catalog. Extensive research has not revealed the criteria for which cars received this unique Glass. Many have speculated but evidence has shown this was not exclusive to: Custom Trim, “400”, Air Conditioning, Conv., PW, etc. “Bird” Glass has been found on documented cars w/Build Dates as late as March 1968. -
Burlwood Console & Dash Trim.
Standard on all 1968 Firebirds -
Hood Tach
Early Production Firebirds used the 1st Type which was a Tall-Style Housing, Single Bulb. The 2nd Type came into production when supplies of the 1st Type were exhausted (around Dec/Jan) There were also variations on the face design/colors. -
Radiator Support Filler Panels (R/L)
These were included with the “400” option and all Air-Conditioned cars. Also included a lower valance panel behind the front valance. -
Rally Gauges
Included a unique Wiring Harness (Dash, Engine, Lamp) Fuse Box and Sending Units. Also, Speedo was unique. This has been previously discussed on The List. I believe there is a Web Site that explains what is required to modify wiring for those adding Rally Gauges. As with the Tach & Clock, all 1968 instrumentation had a Steel-Blue Face (background).
As always, the above information is subject to correction, revision and constructive criticism. I openly welcome all.
A: As for the running production changes, these should not include option availability. I would say to make a separate list of options so as not to confuse the issue. I would like to add the following to available options in later part of year.
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RA option changed from RA I to RA II ( no choice of either)
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Tire inflator for V-8s only
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decklid release
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spare tire lock
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Special spring colors
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 5:19 pm
Q: Mid-Year Changes for 1969
What were some of the mid-year changes that occurred for the 1969.
A: Not complete or in order but instead a start to a growing list. Know of anymore, let us know.
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Gas Tank Venting changed from cap venting to vent tube.
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Wire wheel covers discontinued mid year 1969
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Head restraints became standard later in the year
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Power-Flo Ventilation
A: Production was extended but the exact date is not known. In the registry, the latest built 1969 Firebird (Norwood) has a build date of September, 3rd week, 1969. I don’t have the exact date when production stopped at all (3) plants.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 5:22 pm
Q: Power-Flo Ventilation for 1969
What is “Power flow”-pardon my ignorance.
A: Power-Flo Ventilation (that’s how it was spelled in the brochures) was an option available in 1969 and 1970 Pontiacs and Buicks, Firebird was 1969 only. It was offered on non-AC cars, was about $15 and change, and was 2 blower assemblies mounted up in the cowl area which when turned on would blow air through the upper vents. The rocker switch in the Pontiacs was different than the Buicks, and looked like the ones used for power antenna, power top, rear defogger, reverb (big cars) and tailgate windows (wagons). The switch had AIR imprinted in the center, and HIGH and LOW imprinted on the ends of it. It was available factory or dealer installed, the dealer accesory kit could be purchased over the counter. It seems to have landed in a couple cars, since there were cars in which AC was NOT available, (Ram Air IV and Sprint) those are the most likely candidates. The only car I ever saw it in was a Palladium Silver 1969 GTO convertible with the Ram Air IV engine, and it was not functioning. I own a NOS kit for 70 A and G bodies, a used set from I was told a 1969 Catalina, and 3 more pairs of blower assemblies that resemble the NOS kit. Nothing I have fits the Firebird straight up.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 5:24 pm
Q: Companies for Your Project
The most asked question is “Where do I find so and so part.” This will point you to a growing list of information that you can have sent to your email box.
A: You can receive a copy of a list of parts and service companies that have been recommended by other First Generation Firebird owners. This information is now located in our Forums.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 5:28 pm
Q: Restoring Car Off Frame
Which is better to get done first…the body work/paint or the engine/suspension? It will be 6 months or so after I get one done before I can afford the other.
A: This is always a tough question, because you need to factor in the overall way in which you are going to go about it, what you will do vs. farming out, etc. It sounds as though you will be farming out the entire paint job, so this has major implications. Since I like a cherried engine compartment, this also enlists its own implications, so my approach is a little different. You also have to factor in whether or not the car is totally out of commission for both parts. For a job done right, 6 months is not much time to worry about in the long run. So, not knowing all the options that you are considering (DYI vs. body/paint)I will line things up to a middle-of-the-road approach.
Note: by ‘Prep’ I mean whatever it takes to get ready to paint (to the extent that you may do the work yourself) i.e. washdown, sandblast, sand, body work, primer/surfacing primer/ wet sanding surfacing primer etc.)
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Remove all body panels from fire-wall to front
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Remove Engine
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Remove old suspension
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Prep and Paint subframe (if doing yourself)
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Rebuild new suspension
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Prep firewall, front fenders and inner wheels, hood, hinges, core-support, brackets, supports, etc.(if doing yourself)
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Prep remainder of the body
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Reinstall subframe w/ suspension
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Mask off frame and suspension From here it’s a personal call…
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Reassemble front body (only because you are taking some place else to get painted. If doing it yourself, I would leave everything off and do step 12 first.
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Send to be painted or DIY
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Shoot from firewall back
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Haul it back home
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Carefully remove core support (if DYI, you would never have re-installed at this point. Paint separately and don’t install until after engine is in. Likewise for fenders)
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Install engine compartment stuff
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Install engine
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Re-install core-support and fenders
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Alignment time (most never racking when painted off the car)
Now this approach is not all inclusive, again because of varying factors, but it gives you things to think about. I try to consider overspray concerns, opportunities for scratches, spills, assembly difficulties (getting to things), etc.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:06 pm
Q: Blueprinting
Just what exactly is blueprinting anyway? I hear this term all the time but have never gotten a satisfactory explanation.
A: Blueprinting refers to matching parts and modifications to work together. Often we throw a lot of really flashy parts at the car, but don’t give enough thought as to how they work in con- juntion with one another. The 1st step in blueprinting is to decide what the car will be used for. Cruising, stoplight drags, street/strip, strip only, road or autocross racing? Making that choice will lead the builder/owner towards a package that will meet that goal. Add to this your budget.
A: Blueprinting also refers to checking all measurements (i.e. cylinder, rod journals, main journals, etc.) to make sure that they fall within factory blueprint tolerances. But how far you want to blueprinting it is up to you and your machinist.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:07 pm
Q: NOS
I keep seeing NOS in parts catalogs. What does it stand for?
A: NOS is New/Old Stock, which means leftover factory replacement parts. Many people pay ridiculous amounts of money for NOS stuff, but there are problems. The first is that the parts that went to the bins were sometimes the assembly line rejects, called “seconds” so they are not as good a quality as what went on the car. Also, since a lot of NOS kicked around the shelves of warehouses and dealers and swap meets, they are usually “shelf-worn” or “shop-worn”, so that is strike two.
Next problem is scam artists who sell used parts that can pass for new, and the trick is to keep the NOS part’s box, put the used part in it, and when selling the “NOS” part, ask the customer if he doesn’t mind not gettng the box, since he only wants the part to go on the car. The customer frequently agrees, and he’s been scammed, as well as the next few guys. This happened to me on a 1969 power top switch. I can’t remember the guys name, but he’s a bent-up little guy about 5’2″ tall who sells GTO parts, this was at a POCI convention in Ohio, probably Cleveland.
Hemmings Motor News always had a page in front that listed all the common abbreviations used in their ads.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:08 pm
Q: Ram Air and 400
Some History, 400 Specs, and Ram Air Information.
A: I owned a 1968 convertable, ram air, and campaigned it as pure stock on the drag strips a while.
I had contacts in Pontiac engineering and was told that when Delorian was approached with the idea of a 160MPH car he said OK, but it has to be “safe”. That was the context of the trouble GM was having over the Corvair and “unsafe as any speed”. So a few specific changes were made that you may know, but didn’t mention. The rear spring shackles have triple welds. That is, they laid down two more over the origional one. The front end wishbones were lengthened longitudinal to the car. I think the rear attach point was 13 inches behind the axle. Gives you an awful lot of strength. None of this was on the Camaro or 350 for that matter. Exclusive to the 400. The Ram Air engine was made to hold together up to 8000 rpm. Special anti-pumpup lifters. But the rev limit was 5100, only because oil would accumulate under the valve covers faster that it could drain down via gravity. I blew a valve cover once, so point proven.
You may also have a problem with sustain high revs getting enough fuel. The problem is the float valve opening is too small. You could substitute the 1/8d. seat and float from the Buick Roadmaster and pretty much eliminate the problem. I also intalled an electric pump at the fuel tank as a booster. don’t know if it was really necessary, but it couldn’t hurt. No econo car this. At full song, I could actually watch the gas guage move – and high test at that. Four 1/4 mile runs looked something like 5 gallons. Street mileage with the 4.11 rear axle looked like about 8mpg. After I put back the standard rear (3.08) it “Jumped” to about 12. Horsepower is BTUs and BTUs are CCs of gas. I also put in the Corvette logrithmic throttle linkage. That gave you only up to 1/2 throttle until the last 1/8 inch then punched in the rest. That made it more drivable on the street. Before in the rain, it was almost impossible to not break the rear end loose when starting up. In effect, you drove around on the front barrels only, unless you really wanted to turn loose the ponies. With the 3.08, I did take it to 165. It redlined at 150, but the short blast into orbit was safe enough, provided you backed off quickly. The acceleration up convinced me there was plenty left. Turbulence was pretty rough. Made the ride a bit like a speedboat in chop. Needed better aerodynamics. I figure the 98 reprizes probably are better in that regard. Kind of fun picking on “Whale Tails”, but be a bit more respectful of Ferrari’s and HemiCuda’s. The RamAir had a special cam with more overlap and .100 more lift. To control that, they doubled the valve springs. You have to do that because the valve cam ramps are forced into becoming pretty severe. That’s a big part of the reason why just adding the ram air intake to the standard 400 doesn’t give you the hammer. Under standard conditions the RA intake does add about 15 HP though from volumetic efficiency conciderations. Hope some of this is helpful to provide a bit different dimension and understanding.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:10 pm
Q: Difference Between a 400 H.O. and Ram Air Firebird
Whats the difference between a 400 H.O. Firebird vs an identically equipped Ram Air Firebird?
A: Functional (cold air) ram air induction came on the 1969 RA III. 1968-1969 400HO cars did not have this. Besides this, they are 100% identical (ie ra III did NOT have a different carb settings, cam, heads, exhaust manifolds etc)
As I recently mentioned, if you wanted all the hardware and performance upgrades that the “Ram Air Performance Package” truely offered (i.e. cold air induction PLUS better flowing heads/stiffer valve springs, 3.90/4.33 rear, radical cam, stronger valvetrain, etc) you HAD to get the RA IV (not the RA III/400HO ) in 1969. In 1968, the RA I or RA II (and not the 400HO) had to be ordered.
Think of it this way…. RA III Firebirds (and Trans Ams for that matter) came with *Ram Air Induction* while RA I, RA II and RA IV ‘Birds and TAs came with a *Complete Ram Air Performance Package*
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:11 pm
Q: 1969 Comanche Package
Does anyone know some background on the 1969 Comanche Package? Apparently, this was a Canadian thing. The owner claims this was not a dealer add-on but a factory built car, modified after final assembly.
A: I once spoke to a guy in the early 80’s at Carlisle who asked me if I’d ever heard of it. No, said I, but he told me about his car. He thought it was regional thing in the upper midwest or central Canada or wherever Comanche country is (any historians out there?). The car was described as green, I think Verdoro (this is special?) but with many options including the code 293 Gold Leather interior. I think it was supposed to be a 350HO car as well. Whether the options were ordered just by whomever, or were a part of the package, I know not. I’ve only heard Comanche mentioned a couple times since.
I would suppose them to be almost as rare as a 1968 Grand Marque Firebird or a Sprint Fitchbird (pictured below).
A: Pretty much what I’ve heard as well. I ran into a retired GM exec. at a local (Mich.) car show who remembered a marketing thing back in 1969 that started in a Candian Dealer Zone involving a special Firebird. This started as a dealer promo thing as a result of the exposure ‘The Judge’ was getting along with other unique packaging ‘experiments’ such as ‘The Jury’, ‘Royal Bobcat’, Yenko, Motion, etc. The Mustang and Buick Gran Sport had regional appearance packages… (“California Special”, “Colorado Special”, etc). Why not Pontiac ?
Anyhow, this guy I spoke with had recently come across a surviving ‘Comanche’. An original 1969 Firebird Coupe up in Canada that had been sitting for quite sometime. I can’t remember what the distinguishing feature was (paint, badging or borrowed T/A components). Whatever it was, it got his attention. He was working on a deal to buy the car but was having difficulty getting in touch with the owner. This was not a one-off show car to promote a dealer or zone but instead, it was to be a Canadian Pkg. for all 1969 Firebirds (optional). These were modified/prepped in Canada before arriving at the dealer. Certainly, a ‘Grand Marque’ would be rarer since less than (3) were made exclusively for the PMD Auto-Show Circuit. Sounds like these would have had Canadian papers to authenticate their origin and uniqueness. I’ll have to check back with this individual and find out if he ever bought the car.
A: As for the car, my best recollection has this as dealer or district sales option in central Canada.
A: I have at a POCI convention about 12-13 years ago. I don’t know much more than you’ve stated, but maybe you’ve run into the same huy that asked me all those years ago!
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:20 pm
Q: Building Replica 1969 Trans Am
I’m building a replica 1969 Trans Am from my 1969 Firebird. I have many pictures and books to go from, but still have a few details I’m uncertain on:
1. On the front fender, is there a Firebird emblem or just the Trans Am sticker (I’ve seen them both ways)?
2. What is behind the fender air extractors? A hole or the same grills on a 1969 Firebird?
3. Is there a Pontiac arrow on the front bumper?
4. Are the Ram Air stickers on the hood black or blue (for white car with blue stripes)?
A:
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There should not be a Firebird emblem there. I have seen this in some GM promo pictures, but in actual production, there were no emblems. (This is a good way to tell a clone.) The T/A fenders are the only fenders that have no holes.
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This part is the same as a firebird fender, but the ‘grills’ are not there.
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The arrow on the frt bumper signifies a 400 engine.
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The Ram -Air stickers were only on the RA-IV engines and I believe they were red, but I’m not sure about that. My T/A is a RA-III and has no stickers on the hood.
A: I disagree with a couple of the above comments:
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I would agree here, that pilot cars and pre-productions that made the factory photos seemed to have Firebird nameplates plus the Trans Am decals.
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The Trans Am fenders actually have 2 holes in each that are about the same size and in the same place as the grooved emblems on a regular Firebird. The air extractors actually do work, but they don’t pass much air. The reason was to relieve underhood pressure that caused lift in the front of the car at high speeds, not to cool the engine.
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Trans Ams did NOT get the chrome surrounds in the grilles that the 400 Sport option Firebirds did, but they DID get the arrowhead emblem. Instead the grilles were blacked out, but the snorkel part of the grille was silver.
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I’m not sure here, but I mentioned a couple weeks ago that when these cars were still on the road, I don’t ever remember seeing those decals. You’re probably correct.
Other points to consider:
Interiors? Black, Parchment and Blue were most common in either standard or Custom. A couple of Gold standard and a couple of Green standard were built, and one with Red Custom. There were NO 1969 TA’s with the Gold Leather.
Stripes on top of the spoiler or not? Most were not, but a few TA owners insist some were. All had the spoiler pedestals painted blue.
Steering wheel? Very late cars had the 70 style Formula wheel, but with a 69-specific emblem in the horn center. Early cars all seemed to have the wood wheel with the PMD center cap.
Vinyl top? A few actually were built with black or blue. (Yuck!)
Tire style? While most restored TA’s seem to have Good Year Poly Glas with the 3/4″ block letters, I believe most TA’s actually came with the 3/8″ white pinstriped tires. Also, some had wheelcovers including the dog-dish poverty caps, all the way up to the wire wheelcovers.
Gauges? Many TA’s had regular telltales (idiot lights), and many had the regular Rallye Gauge package without a tachometer. Only a small percentage had the in-dash tach and stepped gauges.
One more bit of trivia, although it means nothing for a clone TA. There were 20 1969 Trans Ams built in Van Nuys. The TA I used to own was a California car. Prior to that most TA enthusiasts believed that only Norwood built the 69 TA. None were built at Lordstown.
Weird 1969 TA? How about Ram Air IV Automatic column shift with wire wheelcovers and vinyl top?
I have 7 different road tests of 1969 Trans Ams, and two of the cars used were plain silver.
I shopped for a 1969 TA from 1978 until I bought one in 1987, and I passed up at least 3 A/C equipped cars, not knowing then that only 32 were built.
A: I have to disagree with you on “Trans Ams did NOT get the chrome surrounds in the grilles…”. My T/A has the chrome on the grills and the grills are silver. I bought this car is 1973 with 11,000 miles on it, so I doubt that it had been changed, no evidence of an accident, etc. It is a late production since you mentioned the 70 T/A steering wheel, which mine has. (door tag reads 11/69) Perhaps that could explain it? My car does have the in-dash tach and the stepped gauges, which I have only recently discovered how rare they are. It was (and is again) equipped with Goodyear Polyglas tires. No stripes on the spoiler.
A: I guess its all about production variances…never say never. I my self havent seen a 1969 TA with silver grilles. Maybe with this much time passing a previous owner may “remember” an accident that wasnt previously mentioned. this would be one thats very hard to document.
A: Anyhow, the grills used a different part number than std. Firebirds due to the black out treatment and lack of chrome trim. VIN was not unique for the T/A however, the Trim Tag was (code D80 or D080). This denoted the rear spoiler.
(NOTE: not all orig. T/A’s have this code).
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:23 pm
Q: GM Assembly Line Story
Some of you I recall worked at one time in the GM assembly plants so I thought some of you might find this interesting.
A: I’m going for an MBA and one of my textbooks makes reference to a book by B. Hamper titled Rivethead: Tales from the Assembly Line.
In it the author writes:
I was seven years old the first time I ever set foot inside an automobile factory. The occasion was Family Night at the old Fisher Body plant in Flint where my father worked the second shift. If nothing else, this annual peepshow lent a whole world of credence to our father’s daily grumble. The assembly line did indeed stink. The noise was very close to intolerable. The heat was one complete bastard.
After a hundred wrong turns and dead ends, we found my old man down on the trim line. His job was to install windshields using this goofy apparatus with large suction cups that resembled an octopus being crucified. A car would nuzzle up to the old man’s work area and he would be waiting for it, a cigarette dangling from his lip, his arms wrapped around the windshield contraption as if it might suddenly rebel and bolt off for the ocean. Car, windshield. Car, windshield. Car, windshield. No wonder my father preferred playin’ hopscotch with barmaids.
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Content last modified: December 31, 2019 at 12:40 am
Q: Film: Gone In Sixty Seconds
Another First Generation Spotting in a Film.
A: I just got back from seeing the new movie Gone in 60 seconds and it’s a blast. Lots of nice cars and chase scenes but the greatest thing (I won’t give the plot away) is that towards the end they are having a barbeque and the actual BBQ is made out of the front end of a 1967 or 1968 (couldn’t see the turn signals) Firebird. What a great idea!
I don’t think my wife would let me have such a thing at home but maybe at work. I figured if I could find a semi-dead car I could make a trailer out of the back end (trunk) and a BBQ out of the front end and the rest would be spare parts. Hmmmmm, now to start looking….
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:40 pm
Q: Restoration Guide
I want to start restoring my car but wonder if I am going to pay too much to have someone restore my Firebird. I am also worried I will not be able to find someone who knows anything about the detailing for my Firebird.
A: There are various levels of a ‘restoration’ and a project should be separated based on your budget.
These days, the rare, hi-performance, low-production cars restored by a big-name restoration shop usually command more on the resale market not only for the quality of detail but for the ‘name’ of the shop.
Body Work The amazing thing is, one can still achieve ‘concours’ level quality without sending the entire car along with a big blank check to one of the famous resto shops. The major body work and paint are the key items that usually should be done by someone who does this stuff everyday and has the proper tools, tricks and experience. Experience comes from practice and mistakes; better to pay someone who has ‘been there’ than to try and gain this ‘experience’ yourself on one car.
Paint/Detailing With the major body work and paint out of the way, the rest comes down to research & detailing (other than the drivetrain which is still basic tear-down and rebuild). Body & Paint is an ‘art’. Performance tricks can also be an art. Detailing is essentially about research. Paying for only the body & paint work can save you thousands of dollars. Some major shops will only do the entire project which is where they make a significant portion of the profit. Sending the stripped-down ‘shell’ to a shop with only the body panels (unbolted) will save you a few bucks as well.
Reassembly Personally, I find the ‘reassembly phase’ to be the most interesting. Researching and sleuthing for info and parts will help you become knowledgeable about your car. Collect plenty of photos from car shows, old road article photos, resto books/guides. Ask alot of questions. Talk to the resto gurus at shows- most will share secrets & tips. Also talk with the ‘little guy’ at shows who does his own work. I’ve met several who’ve been in the hobby longer than many of these resto gurus. What is correct comes down to how much research you do. Just because a shop charges $20-$50k to restore a car does not always guarantee that every detail will be correct. Most importantly, whenever you are fortunate enough to come across an Unrestored Original car…. take ROLLS of pictures ! Originality is more valuable than anything including the advice of so-called ‘pros’.
Everyone has different opinions on what is Show, Restored & Concours. You can have Concours Paint with major inconsistencies in the detailing. Same thing vice-versa.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:46 pm
Q: Pageant Car
I remember a local guy here in Orlando had an orange (Carousel Red) and parchment 1969 Firebird convertible that had a note on the build sheet about it being some kind of a beauty pageant car, used in Miami or Palm Beach. There were a few of those built, and I think awarded to winners.
A: You’ve sparked my curiousity since I own a Firebird with similar history. I purchased a car from Florida about 3 years ago from the second owner . I got the original bill of sale, protecto-plate etc. It is an original carousel red/parchment convertible car (and still is – but a tad tired).
On the bottom of the build sheet (found under the back seat) is a statement:
“TAG NATIONAL COLLEGE QUEEN PAGEANT”
The car was purchased in Fort Myers by a lady who owned it for 26 years, then went up to Orlando for 3 years, then up to the Great White North of London Ontario Canada.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:53 pm
Q: Assembly Plant Questions
Had some questions I could not answer today and wonder what the correct answers were:
1. Fisher body plants put the bodies together. Were these plants part of the Pontiac assembly plants?
2. Did the Fisher plants put more bodies together than just the ones supplied to the local plants?
3. If the Fisher plants were not part of the Pontiac plant complex, where were they located and who did they service?
4. What production cars did Lordstown put together (Camaro and Firebird)?
5. How about Van Nuys?
A:
1. Yes. Usually an adjoining building.
2. No. Fisher was responsible for the BIW (body in white)- bare shell. Just as there are separate parts of a Mfg. Plant today (Stamping, BIW, Paint Trim, Chass, Final), the Fisher Body Division was responsible for the assembly of the welded body back in the 60s/70s. Each facility supported that particular vehicle.
3. They were a part of the ‘Plant Complex’. In other words, for example- the Firebird ‘shell’ was not made in one state then trucked to another.
4. Lordstown was Firebird only from at least late 66 – into the 70s for the Firebird only. At some point, I think they produced other Pontiac models there.
5. Van Nuys, CA started producing Firebird’s in March of 1968 and continued to do so up into the 80s I believe. Early Firebirds did not share the same Final Assy Plant/Line at Lordstown, Van Nuys or Norwood. This did happen later.
*The above answers should not be deemed ‘the final word’. This was a quick answer.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:54 pm
Q: Transporter
I am looking for a transport from CT to Chicago any ideas?
A: go to the largest wholesale auto auction in your area and ask some of the driver/haulers that are hanging around waiting for a full load.They have very good logistics and usually try and fill their rigs.
A: Transport companys are a pain to deal with, trust me on this, I just went through it shipping a car from california to michigan, they tell you whatever they think it is you need to hear to get your business, the company I delt with was BDS or Best Discount Shippers, I finally had to cancel with them and go with another company, iam currently having Visa fight on my behalf to get my money back. I found out that some of these “brokers” don’t pay the trucking companys thier share of the money and eventually have a tough time finding a trucker to take their business, just thought some of you might like to know.
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Content last modified: January 19, 2014 at 6:56 pm
Q: Diecast Cars
I want a model of my year Firebird but can not find any on the market. Where can I find one or can I have a company make one for me.
A: If the plan is to get some diecast maker to build a Firebird of some kind, larger than the existing MatchBox or 1:43 scale cars exisiting now, you will need to contact the makers themselves.
The following is a list of diecast model car makers:
ERTL, UT, Vitesse, Herpa, Detail Cars, Best, Brumm, Bang, Burago, Jouef(Eagle Race), Anson, Solido, Revell
Ertl — (now owned by Racing Champions) recently released the 1.43 scale 1967 Firebird 400 coupe in Plum Mist (copy of Jim Mattison’s famous car), often mistaken as black. (http://www.ertltoys.com/)
Vitesse — looks like mostly European cars(http://www.vitessegroup.com/ — A dead link now)
Herpa — (a German company) (http://www.herpa.de/herpa_e.htm)
Exact Detail by Lane Automotive — They produced a number of 1/18 scale First Generation Firebirds. (http://www.exactdetail.com)
A few examples:
Jouef — (US distributor for Joef) (http://www.w-s-o.com/JouefModelsIncUsa/ — A dead link now)
Revell — (maker of diecast and plastic model cars. Next to Ertl/Racing Champions, your best bet) (http://www.revell-monogram.com/)
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Content last modified: November 6, 2019 at 8:25 am
Q: TV Quiz Program
Interesting Tidbit
A: I won my 1967 Firebird convertible on a tv quiz program, still runs Great!–your site has been fun traveling thru.
Dear Geoff
You ask me to respond many months ago on the “hows and whys” of winning a new l967 Firebird Convertible but I can not think of anything witty or cute to say.
Simply, I know that I am an extremely lucky person in many aspects of life though I have never won the lottery! Did make two birdies on the golf course today– a first for my two years of play!
In l966 or early 1967 this Texas family (my husband, six month old and I) resided in NYC for a six month period. While my husband worked I enjoyed the “Big City” life; Subways; unbelievable traffic; sight seeing and of course live taping of TV programs.
Bill Cullen, a popular TV personality of the 60’s hosted a game show called “Eye Guess”. It was sheer luck to be picked from the audience (ie Price is Right type of odds). Then it was luck to beat my Dentist opponent by answering inane not intellectual questions. As winner I began to pick hidden prizes and If I could pick seven in a row with out finding a stop sign the bonus car was mine. History was made.
My father suggested I ask for delivery to be made in Texas since I would not have liked driving it home. The powers that be even let me designate the dealership in San Antonio where my father knew most of the dealers. Tyndale Pontiac allowed me to pick the color and add any options at cost–thus I added a lot including a Power Top and Air conditioning which was not usual in convertibles in those prehistoric days. My choice of colors was butternut yellow with back top and interior.
The baby with me in NYC is now 33 and working on her Ph.D in Accounting Systems. She certainly enjoyed driving it to high school and parking it amongst the BMW’s etc etc. Four children in all drove it to high school but finally I get to drive it to the golf courses around town–parking again next to the Beamers; Jags; Caddies or Town Cars it stands proud.
Inevitable men ask about it; the condition; the history; the sales price, some men even beg me to set a price. Notes are always left on it for me to call if I am interested in selling–but honestly it has given me joy all these years there is no amount of money that could replace it. I wouldn’t think of selling for $l0,000; $50,000 or even $l00,000.–and it certainly is not worth that.
There is no way you can use this information but be my guest. Use my name if you want–I have nothing to hide certainly not my beautiful car.
Mary Jo Poston
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Content last modified: January 26, 2014 at 4:46 pm
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