No difference at all.... That's why 'the call'... It's just that some people would like to exclude certain cars as RA because they didn't have a functional hood. The main weakness in their thinking is the hood was the least of the ram air components. All 348 cars had the same engine. Some had the functional hood if they were ordered that way(611).

I disagree (as usual).

RAIII and HO share the same RPO 348, the same engine codes, the same block, crank, heads (48 and 62 depending on A/C or not though some sources also list 16), same intake, same transmissions, same cam (067 auto, 068 manual), long branch exhaust manifolds, distributor.

Documented differences are 4 blade fan on RA, 5 blade (no A/C) or 7 blade (with A/C) on 400 and HO.

The most distinct difference is the carburetor: 400 and 400 H.O. used 7029263 for manual, 7029268 for auto. With T-42 Ram Air option, 7028273 was used for manual, 7028270 for auto. The RA IV used 7029273 for manual, 7028270 for auto.

And, of course, the T-42 fresh air package (RPO 611), which is associated with the change in carburetors, turning a 400 H.O. into a Ram Air III.

Reference: 1969 AMA Specifications

I highly doubt that the carbs and fans were changed on a 348 optioned car just because the 611 was added. I haven't seen any physical proof of the fan and/or the carbs being different. The only way that could be true is if the fan and carbs were part of the 611 option. Which they were not....

I think the simple facts of the invoices having RA and HO interchangeable shows they are definitely one and the same, RA III. In fact, many of the cars that had the 611 option say HO and many that didn't have the 611 say RA. RAIII is the same as HO in 69. Both ordered with the 348 engine. The invoice IS the car. The invoice says RA, ram air, no amount of typing 40 years later is going to erase RA from the invoice(s). It's there. It means Ram Air engine.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Kpontiac3.htm

http://www.teufert.net/pontiac/carbs.htm

and http://www.blake.com/oemcarbs/pontiac.htm

and http://thefirstgensite.com/library/partscounter/illustrated/69ra/69ra1.html see items 37 and 49 for differentiation between applicable part numbers for HO and RA

Still just typing years after the fact of the invoice. No physical evidence like an invoice with RA, ram air, right on it. The invoices are the foundation of any research. The 'Big Bang' so to speak. Everything else takes it's cues from the invoice. The invoice has the 'Biggest Voice'. It's not a 'speculation'. Everything after the invoice is just speculation based on an invoice. In this case there's no need for speculation because ram air is spelled out for you 'RA'.

I've had these 2 bookmarked on my PC for quite some time now.

http://members.tripod.com/~FIREBIRD69/index2order.html
http://members.tripod.com/~FIREBIRD69/RAIIIorder.html

I apologize if these were posted before. Going through my network here at work, the previous photos you folks posted show boxes with red X's.

Very nice. Both midyear, first has both 348 and 611, second 348 only. AND both with 348 labeled as HO. Terminology does change during the model year. First has plant code obliterated, but second is Norwood.

I agree that the first sample is definitely a RA III. I have no doubts. And the second is a classic 400 HO. Both very respectable packages.

We do of course want as many invoices as possible, from as many dates and plants as possible. But I have not seen ANYTHING that refutes that all RAIII cars had the fresh air system, and all HOs did not. With that and the carb being the only significant differences, it will be difficult to find unmolested examples to confirm but I am sure they are out there.

C'mon, FGFers, show us what you have.

So you are still trying to say the invoices are wrong.... OK I'll leave it there. I'm leaning towards the invoices being correct.... Keep in mind, a car, no matter how original you claim it to be, will never trump an invoice.

From the 1969 Firebird sales brochure printed 09/68...note the differentiation between HO and RA.

I think I understand.
The 348 is W74, an HO engine. You could then option it with T42/611 to make it a RA car.

The factory docs and order form are clear: T42 is an add-on, very much like the cowl hood was on a Camaro.

Invoice RPO's are clear, I don't see much interpretation, even if the verbage changes.

Some engine components could be changed due to T42 if they were not part of the engine as shipped (carb and fan were not). So it is possible.

This is where a database comes in handy. The same type of issue on some the 396 Camaros. Docs show two different carbs used, but turns out only one shows up on cars.



Now the question that will never be answered is: why was the invoice description of 348 changed in Nov. It would be interesting to see if the verbage on window sticker also changed, since that appears to pull from a different database.

Note that the price of 348 changed throughout the year:
In Nov, it was $253 invoice $.
That export car was $278.
The June car was $302.
An April car was $314.

And here's the kicker. I have a PHS for a Nov built LOS car (exactly the same time at the Nov 'RA' cars) that wasn't invoiced until the end of March. 348 was $306 on that car. And it's 400 H/O on the invoice.

Do either of you have the VIN's for the invoices posted at the beginning of this thread?

Exactly like the cowl hood. Which didn't change anything about the main option on the 69 Camaro. A Z is still a Z without the cowl induction. An SS is still an SS without the cowl induction. A ram air III is still a ram air III without the functional ram air hood. How do I know? Because the invoices say it. Clearly spelled out 'RA'. There are many like that. Simply put, if your car has an invoice that says RA, it's RA. Talking heads of the future can't take it away if you have your invoice saying it.

Since this thread is so long and the information is scattered in it, I'm going to recap.
I believe these three (of many) invoices at face value. They say F/B 400 R/A. Which means, by way of the R/A being used previously, Firebird 400 Ram Air. The 'desenters' believe that the invoices 'lie' (are erroneous).



I don't believe invoices can lie. I believe them all at face value as long as they can be verified by ordered copies(proving they aren't altered).

Jim, if Pontiac sold the exact same Firebird as a 400 H.O. for price "A" and as a Ram Air for a higher price "B" and the only difference was a line on the dealer invoice, why would anyone pay more for the one called Ram Air, and why did the Ram Air have different specifications?

The Ram Air was an add on for a 400 H.O. on the Firebird. Although 95% of the car was the same, the pans, inlet, flappers, and carb were unique compared to the H.O.

The three invoices listed above show cars properly configured as 400 H.O.s. They neither prove nor disprove anything beyond that verbage on dealer invoices varied over location and time, as did pricing.

I'll repeat this again(to the point of redundancy now). The HO and R/A are one in the same, 348. 348 IS R/A III. The invoices prove it in writing. I think it's rediculous to tell an owner of one of these cars that has their R/A invoice in hand that their car is not R/A. If the invoice says R/A, it IS R/A. Period. You can have the honor of refuting an invoice, I won't go there. To me, it's the same as all the other crackpots saying they know more than the invoice. Invoices are King in the Pontiac Documentation World. And that's a great thing...

Brad, Jim just upgraded your car to a Ram Air...

So the older invoices that list 348 as H.O. and have a 611 option are NOT Ram Air because the invoice does not say Firebird 400 RA on the 348 line? Your logic fails. Or is every 400 H.O. actually a Ram Air in your viewpoint?

It's always been a ram air III. If you would just read, QUOTE 348 is R/A III which also is HO. In 69 they are one in the same 348 = HO = R/A III. I have published material showning this from the 80's and here is proof found in the 21st century thanks to the internet bringing more paperwork(actual invoices) to light.

Nope. Pontiac designed, marketed, and sold them as H.O., some with Ram Air package. Not as Ram Air, some with fresh air induction left out.

Invoice nomenclature is not conclusive.

Anyone have '69 bulletins or dealer order book?

Pontiac's own literature means nothing?

Many invoices that say 400 H.O. PHS can differentiate between which are Ram Air and which are H.O. when they run a VIN. How? Because of the presence or absence of the 611.

Sammiesbird, are you out there with your "wrong" 400 H.O. sheet?

QUOTE: Many invoices that say 400 H.O. PHS can differentiate between which are Ram Air and which are H.O. when they run a VIN. How? Because of the presence or absence of the 611.

Now this is a simple concept that is easily understood. 611 is only the difference between a functional and non-functional HOOD.
LOL His sheet isn't rare, I've got pictures of a dozen like it. Just like there are dozens that say R/A(ram air). You can argue with ALL of them.



.................................

RA is not RA without the Ram Air induction. I printed the email from Jim Mattison several months ago, and he is generally accepted as having a fair amount of knowledge about Pontiacs. You are still in denial, and that's fine, but don't fool others into thinking that 400 H.O.s are really Ram Air IIIs when the two are separate submodels.

348 = H.O.
348 + 611 = Ram Air

RPO is the ONLY factor that affects the build of the car.

Quoting yourself as an expert witness just doesn't convince me, sorry.

Ran out of fresh thoughts? Or are you a firm believer in recycling?

You slipped an edit in, let me address that:


And...without that functional HOOD, how do you RAM AIR?

Firm believer in invoices over talking heads. Show me just one invoice that you can prove is misprinted and there will be just a tiny amount of doubt. Without that you are just lips flapping.

You need to have the basic understanding of ram air being an engine. For example, ram air heads have nothing to do with a hood.

The Ram Air/400 H.O. engine are one and the same other than bolt-on accessories. So why have two model designations if your theory is correct? Ram Air III has the same heads as the H.O.

I am not saying any of the invoices are "misprinted". I am saying that broadcast copies carry codes, not text, based on the ordered RPOs. The car is built by the broadcast copy to the RPOs ordered, not what any invoice states in text.

All righty then, show me more misprinted text....there isn't any. R/A is R/A is R/A is R/A.

LOL...

Time for you to do a little homework. 1gmman@comcast.net. Ask away.

What, more expert OPINIONS and flapping lips? I'll stick with the invoices, thanks.

Closed mind, open mouth.

Those brochures are often wrong. One was posted just last week with Camaro console gages in a Firebird. This one is obviously talking about a HOOD option. All 348's got the same ram air III engine. That's where the 'meat' of the ram air is. Hoods are just fluff for the puffy people. Puff away....

There was a preproduction (show) car with console gauges. Not wrong, it was built that way, just not what was offered when the Firebird finally went into production. You could not order console gauges on a '67 Firebird AFAIK.

Just as this '67 has a rectangular mirror...and a shorter front arrowhead than eventually released. And a flat hood with 400 grilles and arrowhead...

So the argument is whether the name of the W74 engine is HO or R/A?
And the basis for the argument that the W74 engine is an R/A is 3 invoices, only from Nov 68? Despite that every other document presented (including order forms, window stickers, every other invoice, and advertising) show that the W74 is the HO engine and the T42 adds the R/A to the car?

And no less the invoice for a car that was built at the exact same time but shipped later in the year says HO. Which leads one to conclude that the option hadn't changed, just the wording on the invoice.

Any chance of getting the VIN's on the other two invoices? That would help to narrow down when this happened.

And noone mentioned the ongoing price changes for W74.......

Yes, that's about it.

My stance is that 348 is the H.O., T-42/611 is a value added option that creates a Ram Air car. What all the components are in the Ram Air package, I do not have supporting documentation. I will check the Assembly Manual for a breakdown.

I have the same images shown early in the thread, I can get all but the last two digits of the obscured VIN. Looks like 223379L114297 on the first RA. The second one I can't see anything. The first HO is 223379N101278(or 9). Next HO is 223379U1143xx. Then a RA convertible 223679Xxxxxxx and the Export HO 223379N103xxx. There were likely others in there I missed...

Price changes during the model year are common on the engines, where the convenience and appearance options are relatively stable.

I don't feel comfortable plotting a trend with so few pieces of data, there MUST be more copies floating around...

If I have pictures of a few invoices with R/A then chances are there are many. Simple logic. The engines are exactly the same. Publications have called all the 348's ram air III. What I am saying exactly is if you have a car and the invoice says ram air then the car is ram air. It ridiculous to say the car isn't ram air with R/A right on the invoice. If there were only one it would be a misprint. It isn't a misprint because there are many like that. If you didn't order the functional hood then it's not functional air induction. It's still ram air III. And I'm not excluding the cars that happen to say HO with the 348. All the cars with 348 are R/A. They could all be considered HO too. I wouldn't draw a line at a point in time during a production year and exclude some with the same equipment as being less than R/A. They are one and the same. All R/A III(same as HO), some with functional hoods(611), some without.

Jim's Up To His Same Old Tricks
Go To PY There's A GTO That Has It .....MISPRINTED!

P.S
Jim's being schooled by a girl...lol
Vikki give him the boots he needs it!