Hello,

I heard that my car was being discussed here. (Nice website by the way). I own the 69 Comanche Firebird convertible with the 348 option L74 engine. The PHS docs appears earlier in this thread. I am third owner of the car which has 51,000 miles on it.

I can assure that my documentation has not been altered. I got the PHS docs in 1994. It came with the VIN, Model and "F/B 400 R/A" with yellow hiliter marks from PHS.

I also got the car documentation from GM Canada in Oshawa. It lists "L74 ENGINE,RAM AIR III"

It is clear that the car never had pans ordered or installed by the dealer (Grant Hamilton Pontiac in Montreal). As part of the "Comanche" package, they pulled the hood inserts and chromed them, and appears that they put on a GTO dual snorkel air cleaner with chrome lid.

Personally, I don't care whether I call it a 400HO or RAIII without pans. It is what it is. That is the beauty of these old Pontiacs!

Regards,
Steve

That GTO on PY doesn't have a misprint. You just misunderstand it. And that has been explained to you, over and over, by soooo many people that it's not even funny anymore.... And if you think I'm being 'schooled' you aren't reading, you are wishing.... (And watching too much Big Time Wrestling ) Although I'll gladly admit I learn from most threads. Including this one.

Thanks Steve. I don't care that much whether you call them R/A or HO either. I think the part that I can't get past is telling someone they do not have a RAIII when their invoice says they do. And then they all should be called the same thing to keep uniformity. For the sake of 'order' I'll call all(69)348's RA III. I think most of the owners will be happy with that. And that's All Good!

Welcome to the forum, Steve, and I hope you forgive the unauthorized use of your PHS.

It's not the authenticity of the documentation or cars that are the topic here; rather the descriptions used on the Dealer Invoices.

Just out of curiosity, do you have the original (not reproduction) window sticker for this car?

The Comanche package has been discussed here, even recently...it would be great if you could share some firsthand insight on the car and the package.

Vikki, I would check into this steve person.
The odds are very great it's Jim's other Screen name.
Because he just joined the group yesterday.

Also Jim the gto on py forum was a misprint.
And it was corrected by Jim Mattison at PHS he even sent a letter to the owner stating it was misprinted.
Go to the thread you will see the letter.

It's not a matter of "misprint". I've spoken to Jim Mattison about this.

348 = H.O.
348 + 611 = RA (later called RA III).

Steve is a legitimate Comanche Firebird owner who has a non-pan car with an invoice stating RA. Just words in a database. An original consumer sales invoice or factory window sticker would be a nice find to further research this topic.

LOL YAH I'm Steve, how did you guess that?? Fruitcake! You been watching "Big Time Wrestling again". LOL Thanks for that laugh. And that note from JM for that PHS, you are misinterpretting that too. Read things for what they are, not what you want them to be.

Hi Vikki,

No issue with the use of the PHS, my brother had it posted on PY to try to stir up more information on these cars.

Thus far, have found 2 1968 Comanche Firebirds of the 13 built and 3 1969 Comanches (including mine). The 69's are two convertibles and one hardtop. My convertible is the only manual transmission (M21) or L74 engine.

I don't have the original window sticker. I am still trying to locate the original owner who apparently still lives in Montreal but no luck yet.

Will send you some Comanche literature that I have collected.

Regards,
Steve

Sorry, I've displayed three invoices that show this in error..... On those 348 + nothing = R/A = RA III

Here they are again;

Jim, where you took my quote out of context yet again, let me reiterate.

Jim Mattison of PHS confirms that no matter the wording on the invoice, the car was built from RPOs, and RPO 348 and 611 are required to have a Ram Air Firebird (except Trans Am). The line workers NEVER saw the invoice, only Broadcast Copies with codes. And build codes are build codes, not subject to interpretation.

If only 348 is present, that is the engine RPO, and that is a 400 H.O.

Now...does anyone have, or have docs for, one of the hundred or so non-Trans Am Ram Air IV Firebirds? 347 also does not specify the fresh air induction package as part of the engine option. That would be incredibly strange to have a Ram Air IV without pans...

Since the topic really comes down to a naming issue, there's two parts of it as I see it.

The factory docs are pretty clear (except for Nov 68) - L74 is referred to as an H/O.

But as an outsider, I'd never heard of an 400 H/O. Only RAIII and RAIV. So it appears that the hobby considers the L74 engine to be an RAIII.
The big qualifier is that - what ever you want to call it, to be a true R/A car, it also has to have T42/611. You can have a R/A engine, but not have R/A.

Some other comments:
Jim M is correct - the order codes / RPO's generated the broadcast sheets. Naming conventions were up to PR. This isn't conjecture, this is fact. I'm not sure what you want for proof on this. Did you read this: http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml?

If the RAIV engine package didn't include RA, then again you can have a RA engine but not have RA on the car.

Vikki,
Thanks on the VINs. I was really commenting on the ones with R/A on them. Be nice to know for sure what they are. I thought the first one could be 9U1114237. Anyone knows where the second one came from? It would be nice to even get part of the VIN to help pin down the dates.

And I haven't seen prices change that much on Chevy options. Normally they are stable unless something in the package changes. 348 prices seem to wander around. ?

I've seen errors in early publicity photos, but generally not in publicity text. Especially text that is repeated multiple times.

Also, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
I guess we're insane cause Jim isn't going to change his mind on this and he's insane cause he keeps posting the same pictures over again.

Again, you put too much weight on the hood. The engine is the 'meat' of the ram air. You are thinking too literally with 'ram air'. Ram air is an engine option, not a hood option. That's just 611(hood and pans)

Steve, this is probably not very important , but I have a car that was originally a 350 vert...prev owner put a 400 in it...I added a 400 hood 7 yrs ago...I think its a Comanche hood...it was blue when I bought it from Canada , NB..and when I repainted it ,it seenmed to be gold under the blue as we re sanded it...the hood scoops are chrome, and in fairly good shape , but you can tell they are 'older chroming'...and if Im correct I understand the Comanches had chrome scoops??

Kurt,
You really should stick to your IQ because your EQ is lacking. I've not stooped to your level of personal attack. I expect the same from you...thanks.

Jim, everything you state as "fact" flies in the face of operating procedures, printed literature, master order sheet, and countless other documents that support the position that there is no such thing as a Ram Air engine, merely an H.O. with the option to add the Ram Air fresh air intake. If you have a Master Order sheet for 1969 that lists RA III as an available option, please share it with us.

It is obvious that you have closed your mind to new information and to logical interpretation of countless items of era-correct Pontiac literature, and to the statements made by those considered to be leading authorities and keepers of the original documents.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but please refrain from stating such as "fact" without explaining how a Ram Air is a Ram Air without the facility to "ram air".

Kurt, the documentation on your site taking us through the birth of an F-body is wonderful. Thanks for taking the time to put it all together in such a clear and readable fashion.

Jim, you have stooped to personal attacks and mindless repetition throughout this thread and many others. Don't criticize others for echoing your tone.

I also have published production figures that show all 348's as ram air III. The only solid physical evidence presented in this complete thread that I started are the invoices shown in the pictures....

You could not order a 348 "Ram Air" engine. You could order a 348 400 HO. Please explain why and how they miraculously became Ram Air cars.

Here's what I think Jim is trying to say
The 400 HO option was known as either the Ram Air, Ram Air II, or simply HO.
If they had a functional hood and pans it was called a ram air III Car.

What I am saying is if some who order 348 get an invoice that says R/A then all who ordered 348 have R/A. Since some of the 348 cars had an invoice that says HO then they are all HO's too. These R/A and HO designations do not change with or without 611 ordered. As the invoices displayed show. If you are going to call any of them RA III then they all are. This isn't just my opinion.

My point exactly. Pontiac defined, on the Master Order sheet, the 348 as "L74 400 HO 4BBL V8 - Engine option for Firebird 400 Order in place of 345" and gave it an RPO of 348. T42, RPO 611, says "Hood Ram Air Inlet - Optional 348 Only"

The Master Order is what was used to order a car from the factory and was used to generate the Broadcast Copies when entered in the system. The Dealer Invoice was a separate process run by accounting.

So how you then take the exact wording used by Pontiac in 1968 and 1969 to order a Firebird and alter it to fit your own definition flies in the face of fact.

Look. I'm not saying anything. The invoices are doing the talking. They say R/A. R/A means ram air. Some say HO. Which means High Output. The wording obviously changed over time during the 69 production run. Where my opinion comes in is when I say that, in my opinion, it's not appropriate to change what a car is called in the middle of a production year IF the equipment hasn't changed. So, rather than excluding the HOs from being called R/A, I say they are all R/A and HO. One thing that has become obvious is that the 611 option on the invoice didn't have an effect on them being call R/A or HO on the invoices.

No. They are two separate entities. RA the engine and RA the hood. Other than T/A, every 348 and 347 could be ordered with 611 or not ordered with 611. That means they are separate (related, but still separate) and combining them or ignoring that fact just adds to the confusion.


Reread that. It was not intended as a personal attack. I poked fun at us for saying the same things to you and you for posting the same pics 4 more times. Obviously this discussion is going nowhere at this point.

I'm done with this one.....

Sorry Kurt. Didn't read it the way you meant it.
And I've been trying to separate the two RA options, engine and hood. But that's the sticking point with the desenters. They say there isn't any R/A without the 611. But the invoices stare them in the face. R/A without 611 many times over. I believe the invoices. If it says Firebird 400 Ram Air, to me, it is.....

Kurt, one minor correction per master order...611 was available only as an option on 348...was standard with the Ram Air IV package as shown on the same brochure posted many pages ago.

After rereading what I wrote, that came out wrong. I'm not leaving in a huff, just tired of talking about this.

Jim,
Every public document (invoices are not public) that Pontiac produced referred to L74 as HO.
As I indicated above, the general hobby often refers to L74 as R/A III. But Pontiac did not.

Anyone that is told they have a RA3 engine needs to know that the car may or may not have RA (T42) on it.

Vikki,
Thanks, for that clarification. You had posted
and I read too much into that.

Ahh, but you are wrong. Pontiac did refer to the bare L74 as ram air. Did you forget about the invoices already? LOL That's why I posted them over and over. You tend to ignore them.... If a person owns a 1st generation Firebird and has the original invoice(or verified copy)AND it says FIREBIRD 400 RAM AIR on it..... Are you seriously going to tell the owner that it's not what the invoice says it is? I'm not.... When you look at this debate in general terms it's your textbook 'Inclusive' vrs 'Exclusive' debate. I've always been an 'inclusive' type person.

Yes, I will tell the buyer/seller it is not a Ram Air without the 611 if it has a 345, 348, or any RPO other than 347 or 322.

The consumer was never meant to see that Dealer Invoice, it was merely for dealer billing purposes, and if not for PHS we would never see it. Like Mopars and Chevys and the other makes, we would have to rely on physical evidence (fresh air control, pans, flapper assembly, open scoops) and the Broadcast Copies, which accurately show the RPOs and make no textual reference to their "name".

Pontiac, as a division, did NOT call the L74 "Ram Air". That appears to be a short-lived accounting anomaly. Hence my request for original Pontiac-generated window stickers for any cars bearing the 348 in absence of 611.

Haven't you ever been told of or shown a car that is called a "Ram Air 400" where it's just a standard 400 car with a 400 hood and closed scoops? Or with scoops cut open? You could not even order the 611 with a standard 400 package. Everyone wants a Ram Air, but diluting the already dubious value of the Ram Air package by declaring all 400 H.O.s to be Ram Air is irresponsible.

The evidence:

Hmmm. So Pontiac built, in your opinion, 1355* 1969 Ram Air III Firebirds (excluding Trans Am, which were Ram Air by definition and construction) and no H.O.s? That is inaccurate.

It's unfortunate that you cannot provide full VIN numbers or any factory literature to support your case. I have, and I stand by it.

*based on engine production figures for 1969 provided by PHS, less T/A RA III production figures posted on transamworld.com.

FYI, RA III production figures vary widely from source to source and most are based on Fred Simmond's breakdown of engine production figures, rather than from PHS physical invoices, and therefore do not have the ability to take into account the presence/absence of 611.

I'm not going to overstate my opinion. Instead I will show a published consensus of many other's opinions;

LOL, another "opinion" but you present it as fact simply because it is published?

Statistics can be manipulated to show any case you wish to present. I rely on physical evidence and manufacturer records and literature to prevent such confusion and clouding of the issue.

No Maam. Maybe you should improve your reading. Where do you see the word 'fact'? I said OTHERS OPINIONS(not shouting, thought you might be able to read caps)

I can read just fine, thanks, but you seem to have trouble with comprehension. Perhaps I should post more pictures? I posted several pieces of physical evidence that you summarily dismissed by showing a couple of photocopies of an invoicing anomaly.

Opinion is opinion is opinion. State your sources, and if your sources are a "compilation of opinions", state their sources back to original records.

Show me one factory window sticker for one of those cars that has the 348 and not 611 that says Ram Air and I'll begin to listen again.

Again, please just physical evidence. You are free to start your own thread with opinions...thanks.

You have no thread, you have no evidence. All you have is three photos of photocopies with VINs that have been intentionally obscured. Dish up some real evidence.

Why does the truth trouble you so? Are you afraid of facts?

Since we have turned over another page because of all the overstated opinions, here is the evidence again:

I simply used the legal system to overturn a wrongful decision that tried to take away my rights. I did not need to do any more than research my case and stick to the facts all the way through.

Why do you want to disillusion and mislead people who may look at this thread and think they have a real RA III car when instead it is an H.O.? That's wrong for the hobby.

Magazine articles are no better, they use the owners as primary sources...that is irresponsible reporting, and you are guilty as well.

Just think of all the literature that exists that says the Holocaust never happened. Stick to primary evidence.

AHHH FINALLY we have come upon a small truth here. What is wrong for the hobby is to disappoint people when they have their invoice in hand telling them what they want to hear. What harm is there in making people happy????? You can make the decision what they are worth yourself. Leave these people happy. Why would you want to try so darn hard to exclude people? It's mean. Let them be with their non-functional ram air III. It's ALL GOOD!