Any pros on cons on going from a stock alt. with an external regulator to a 1 wire internal regulated alternator?

Is there a con to chitcanning the voltage regulator?

I've done it on my birds.
Can leave the external regulator as is.
Just run a wire from alt. to battery.

here's another point of view:
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/onewire-threewire.shtml

I have a one-wire myself, but you might wanna check it out..

After 5 years (seasons) of nothing but charging issues ie: under charge, over charge, burn out a regulators, cook one battery after another etc. etc. VERY aggravating to say the least. I went and bought a single wire/internal regulator for a 70 Bird, brought it home and bingo, solved ALL of my problems. That was 2 years ago and not a single problem since (electrically anyhow). That was by far the best move I could have made in my situation as I was CONSTANTLY having charging issues. Good luck and I for one think it's the right move.

Also, I did not run any new wires as some say you do. I'm not saying they are wrong, but I had an old timer show me how to use the existing wires and it was easy as can be. Took matter of just a few minutes to solve 5 years of agony!

I'm debating offering a service where i take your old #'s matching alt and reconditioning the to one wire. I found several vendors that can upgrade old 10 and 12si alts up too 100 amps. What does everyone think? Also thinking about doing the same for starters.

Cooling capacity of the older alternator case is not that great. That's why the new case was introduced. Starters, yeah, no problem.

more amps are good.

matching numbers generator that won't charge won't do you any good.

-looks nice for a purist, but who can look at the generator/alternator while driving??

Well there are some that want the best of both worlds. The way i look at it is if you have a case that matches the engine and has the right part # but performs much better than the stock one why not? As for starters i found a old amature lathe and amature growler(a test for proper continuity) soi might offer a service for those that want the older units that match but rebuilt to new specs. I have to have something to do after i get back from my next deployment.
Daren

I'll ask the question of what are you trying to fix?

Fine if you have problems like 68 Firebird400 had. But those are the exceptions. Lots of cars still run the original system (100% did for years, since there weren't other options). The regulator has temperature compensation built into it (required for proper battery charging) so you have already have a key feature.

The larger output alternator - again why? If the electrical loads have increased (i.e. you have added electric cooling fans), then that may be required. But the original output of the alternator exceeded the electrical requirements of the car. There weren't many loads in a late 60's car (radio, lights, ignition).

If you do get a higher output alternator, be aware that the # that is quoted is not relevant to normal driving. You need more power at idle (esp for cooling fans). Ask what is the output at {your idle engine rpm times the pulley ratio} (often about 1800 alt rpms, but calculate yours).

Kurt (finally out of the alternator business!)

Putting on my helmet

The old style reg's were built to fail.

Yah. Very bad design. Especially if you compare it to the internally regulated design. After all, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that 'remotely controlled electrical devices' on cars have twice as much chance to corrode and malfunction than ones that have the controls encased.. Much less wiring too....

The original alternator and regulator system was adequate for these cars. I sold my 1968 back in 1974 and never had any charging issues at 50K miles. If you don't add accessories such as an electric cooling fan that requires lots more power than the original Pontiac design consumed, there isn't a good reason to rip out a satisfactory design and replace it with a "one wire" alternator solution. Much of the claims for "one wire" as a superior system stem from inability to diagnose a broken charging system down to the component level. The "superiority" claims arise from the shotgun approach that replaces a modular charging system solution in place of component level repair. If you replace a charging system as a module, you are certain to correct most any charging issue without knowing which part is bad. Most problems stem from worn out brushes, or failure of the diode tree or regulator. All of these problems can be repaired cheaply without trashing the originality of one's classic car with a 2008 part.

One wire alternators also don't light the dash bulb when there is a charging problem. If one wants to "upgrade" to an internally regulated alternator, it would be better to install an alternator that lights the idiot lamp when there is a charging system failure. That is current design in cars today. It is readily installed in a firstgen if you understand the system, and the idiot lamp will still work. The one wire system without the warning lamp circuit is an aftermarket solution for elminiating wires. That is only important when the appearance of wiring is important.

Interesting. Cause I go to junkyards in CA and probably 75% of the 67-70 cars that I look at have the original regulator still on it.

The voltage is temperature compensated by the regulator. The remote regulator more closely tracks the temperature of the battery than the integral regulators. Which is a big deal for battery state-of-charge and battery life.
And no current OEM (and we did a lot of competitive analysis) uses an alternator system without some test and failure indicators, but that's what you get with a one-wire system.

The one-wire system will work fine, but don't convince yourself that it's *far* superior than the original, cause it's not.

Ouch! Ouch!



The old style system works fine.
Back in the day, we rebuilt 2-3 alt's a DAY.
Techs would change brushes, bridge, bushings, and diode trio(bet not many know what that is).
Fairly cheap if you could do it yourself.
Then there's those darn remote reg's. Sold alot of them also.

The newer style works better.
At 1st they had issues.
Now we maybe sell 1 a month.
Cost more, but anyone can R&I one.

I know what they are, and when they fail it's either a more time consuming or more expensive task to repair/replace (your choice) than the 10 minute swap external regulator.

I have 4 birds here, two have Delco-Remy external voltage regs, one has a '69 internally regulated alternator, and the other has a more modern replacement part...seems quite reliable to me since most people didn't go back to the dealer for replacement parts when cheaper options are available.

kurt,you speak the same language as me.most amature do it yourselfers prefer to eliminate the regulater,and most professional mechanics prefer the cars the way they were deseigned.

LOL I wonder why we(GM) switched it in late 69 and never went back? Man I'm glad that some pro's aren't stuck completely on originality to point of inferiority.. . Next, you can explain to us why the HEI was not an improvement. And disc brakes were not as good as advertised. You could probably fix everything on your car with a hammer you fashioned from a rock too, but why?

Looked up everything that would normally get replaced in a external regulator alt(since it's slow here today).
AC-Delco parts would retail for about $135.
Sure, aftrmrkt would be less, but i wouldnt use'm.
I can get a good higher amp 1 wire alt for nearly 1/2 that.

BTY;
AC-Delco external regulator retails for $82.
AC-Delco internal(rebuildable alt's) retail for $30.

If you have a 100% original #'s car, i can understand.
But truth is, the new style(non-rebuildable) alt's last longer.
I upgrade to a better system on mine, and store originals.

I can understand it on a 100% original car too. But then I would probably cheat and just have a non-functioning external regulator bolted in place just for looks.

I can understand it on a 100% original car too. But then I would probably cheat and just have a non-functioning external regulator bolted in place just for looks. [/quote]

I'm calling BS on this. You're prices are way out of line. First, you don't swap out an entire charging system just because it needs fresh bearings or brushes. Maybe your GM dealer is bending you over frontwards insead of him bending over backwards to help out. A quick look on Rock Auto shows a Remy reman alternator costs $36.98 if you keep the core.

With an extra hour spent, since we won't count R&R in the comparision between replacement vs original, you can put fresh brushes and/or fresh bearings in the original alternator. Rock Auto shows their most expensive brush set at $6.95 and the bearings at $4.52 or $10.36, depending which end. They have cheaper selections as well. The rectifier assembly cost $7.65 for their most expensive part. The rectifier is readily checked with a $4 Harbor Freight meter looking for shorts or leakage. There's not much else to go wrong inside an alternator unless the windings burned down and shorted. That's pretty rare, in which case you could buy the Remy complete alternator unit.

Rock Auto offers quite a few external voltage regulators with prices ranging from $10 bucks to $60 bucks. I would pay up for Delco unit.



I picked up a later model new-in-box "NOS" Delco regulator on eBay for $50 w/$8 shipping so I would have a spare that had Delco embossed in the cover.

I think there is great value in maintaining the car to it's original configuration, especially when there is no performance gained or problem solved with modifications. This is one such instance. The original Delco regulator from my 68 bird with over 100K on the clock looks like new inside. I will install new brushes and new bearings in the original alternator as preventive maintenance measures to put things back restored as GM shipped the car in 1968. The original bearings are still servicable with higher milage unless they are making noise, but in my experience, brushes are on borrowed time after 75K miles.

The original charging system is adequate for the Firebird's configuration as the car was shipped by GM. You don't need hundred plus amp capacity unless you add accessories that pose high loads, such as electric cooling fans or electric water pumps. The original wiring doesn't support those high currents without further upgrades.

I think the myth of one wire or use of later model "internally regulated" alternators stems from the inability of shade tree mechanics to diagnose eletrical failures down to the component level. That's pretty much what Terry said too, when he said a professional mechanic fixes what is broken. Otherwise you're playing junior engineer. A one wire alternator is a "modular solution" pretty much likely to repair a charging system that has an undiagnosed problem. But it also doesn't provide any dash lamp warning that the alternator has failed. It's like replacing a complete flashlight with new because you don't know if the batteries, the bulb or the switch are bad.

You could actually go backwards on charging system reliability with the "upgrade", because newer solid state alternators are accomodated by better grounding design in the wiring harness design. You would have to rewire the harness to achive the same results. Solid state regulators (like solid state ignitors) are subject to transient voltage damage that was never contemplated in the electrical design for the Firebird in 1968. Solid state ignitors run longer without any adjustement until they burn down without any notice. But they don't work any better than properly adjusted points. Points and condenser won't strand you dead-right-there like a voltage transient will with an ignitor.

An original voltage regulator will fail when the contacts are burnt up. An alternator will fail when the brushes are worn out to nubs regardless of the regulator internal or external design, and sometimes without much warning. But the original alternator won't fail from voltage transients caused by jump starting or loose wiring like a solid state regulator can.

I'm a shade tree, and darn proud of it.
Have all the credentials.

Since i'm being called out, i'll give my back ground 1st.

Grew up 3 miles from local drag strip(Route US 30 Drag Strip).
Started helping my father on his 57 SuperChief in 68 at age 9.
It ran low 12's in street stock.
Then my bothers 11 sec FB in 71.

Since 75 i've had street and strip 1st gen FB's.
Built and had many Pontiacs plus other cars.
Worked in a chevy dealer wrenching from 77-82.
Became a Pontiac GM parts manager after tired of working on cars i had no desire to.
So i was/i'm there to see design changes/upgrades.
I bleed GM/AC-Delco.

Helped build 1000 hp plus bbc engines with a buddy for 12 yrs.
Not to mention sbc, ford, dodge engines, etc.
We just got done building a 572 hemi with a 600hp n20 fogger to run 6's in the 1/4 mile.

Repaired and maintainced anything from 3 hp 2 cycle engines to 18 hp 4 cycles for friends and relatives.

3 yrs ago, a local racer had problems keeping his 8 sec Pontiac engine together, so i offered my help.
Been together for 2 years.
77 TA/3700 lbs./best of 8.79 @ 162 mph.
We rebuilt the engine in my DRIVEWAY!
In case your wondering, an engine like that costs $17k to build and last.
Thats right. $17,000.
The car has $70K worth of parts/labor.

Ok, now the real issue at hand.
Why would i post bs info?
I'm here to help if i can.
If i dont know, i say nothing. I dont know everything.
Shoot, Joe(68BLKBRD) came over to help me trouble shoot why i had no wiper op on my 68 FB.
After trouble shooting, we found out the previous owner replaced the ignition cyl and left the wire cut an disconnected.
Thanks again Joe.

The price i quoted is what a person would pay for AC-Delco alt parts at a GM dealer or AC-Delco parts store.

Now i'm talking old days when it was cheaper to rebuild.
Of course they can be had for less.
No tech would build a worn alt with just 1 or 2 failed parts cause if 1 part he didnt change failed, it would be a come back.
If everythings replaced, it's a failed/warrenty part.
He gets paid to fix it again.
Even though, who would change just 1 or 2 failed parts on a high milage worn alt?

Sure, you can get a reman Delco alt for less.
In fact it's cheaper and better way to go.

BUT WAIT!

Are you getting a real Delco, or a Delco box with a "Rock" alt.
GM, ford, and dodge have been try'n to catch off shore parts in reboxed factory cartons for at least 15 years.
Not sure about you, but i dont want nothing but GM/Delco parts in my FB.

Tomarrow at work, i'll list GM and Delco parts #'s with my cost and suggested retail prices.

Post script.

Been do'n things to my Pontiac engines since the 70's to make them better.
Blocking off the oil filter adapter bypass.
Taking oil pressure from plug at distributer instead of oil filter adapter.
Drilling plug at distributor for better lubrication.
Tapping front oil gallory plugs and using pipe plugs.
Adding an extra qt of oil(7 qts) on stock pans to keep pan from running dry on 6k burn outs.
Deburing casting flash on blocks, heads, and intakes, etc.
ARP rod bolts.
Crower valve springs.
Using hedders cause the stock system sucks moose cocks.
HEI distributors.
Customizing q-jets/rejetting for milage and preformance.
Recuving distributor.
Every one of these things make'm better then factory original.

Post script-script.
My 67 is all original except intake, carb, distributor, exhaust, stereo amd wheels.
But unless you did a PHS on it, checked casting #'s, you'd never know.

Good list but you left out water pump impeller mod and extra cooling hole in center of head.

Ah yes, the old extra 421 hole. Good one!

When aluminum w/p's 1st came out with stamped steel impellers, i R&I'd the factory iron impellar.
Yet to have to do the mod, but havent bought any w/p's since the early 90's.
Have 4 good old stk ones left.
Now that i said that...

And plugging the pypass hole between w/p hsg and intake x-over.
Drilling two or three 1/8 holes in t-stat.
Detach frt x-over and underside heat x-over from all intakes.
Fill exhuast to intake maniflod in heads.
Shim oil pump spring to get extra 10lb's pressure.
Tack weld oil control and drain back baffles in stock pans.
Grinding smooth all casting flash in blocks and heads.
Did i mention drilling a .030 hole in rear plug to oil dist gear?

Enough for now, need to get those parts prices.

Electrical systems were evolving quickly in the 60's. Once they got 'up to speed' they stayed the same for decades. If you want to get 'up to speed' then do the alteration. If you want a slightly less modern system that is exactly original then stay with the remote regulator. It is just that simple. No point in debating whether the more modern set up is better or not. It's in the point of view.

Your right, not worth it.

I'll just say this;

The 62-72 non c.s.i alt's have 43 separate parts.
The c.s.i.'s have 32.

I have a int. reg. alt. on my car it works fine and takes one thing out of the loop if/when theres a problem.