my question involves which pontiac engine is by far considered the best to have ever been built. NOW I AM NOT LOOKING FOR PERSONAL OPINIONS RATHER THAN COLD HARD FACTS! I want to know what block was the best and what year ex.(68 400 HO, 69 455 etc.),what crank and its specs, what cam was the best ex.(068, 041 etc.)and its specs lift duration, which set of heads where the best ever ex.(6x or 4x or mistaken 191's) which rods and pistons and lifters were the best ex.(forged or aluminum or cast or hydraulic or rollers or solid) if everyone could gather there knowledge together and school me on this subject matter. now remember i said ALL PONTIAC ENGINES THAT ARE FACTORY NO AFTERMARKET STUFF! thanks guys,
joe

Joe, in my humble but well researched opinion the '68 350 HO with manual transmission is the cake. Based on off-the-assembly-line rated HP, and subsequent issues with other blocks of greater Cubic Inch (though minimal HP gain), that the '68 350 HO 4-speed is superior in all aspects. If you want to know what aspects I'm speaking of, please feel free to write me.

We all know you can bolt whatever you want onto any V-8 and claim superiority, but for basic HP, workability and good original numbers, that block and transmission can't be beat.

I realize this response will undoubtably cause dozens of "others" (big block guys!) to respond in anger and with a vengeance. I look forward to this, and gladly blame you for starting it! I must go now, to avoid bodily harm from "them!".
:p

Hey Nash i sent you a private message i hope this doesn't turn into a heated dispute i just want to know what is the best of the best! Now remember i want ALL PONTIAC ENGINES THAT ARE FACTORY NO AFTERMARKET STUFF,
joe

with such a question, you probably cant recieve anything but opinions, but i will try.

DOHC QUAD 4.

this engine, stock, without a rev limiter, will out-rev, out-speed, out-last, and out-mileage, any other pontiac engine i am aware of. the only thing it wont do, is out-weigh them.

some would argue this is not true. i would ask that they prove me wrong, and i will believe them. even so, pound for pound.....

some would say this is not truly a pontiac motor. to them i would have to say :p

i am sure you dont want to know the specs.
if you want an opinion, it's the OHC 6.
another would be the 71 455 HO
i've been hearing good things about the 428 lately.


all pontiac v8s are big blocks. even 350s

Don't worry, Joe. We are ALL looking forward to the imminent "heated dispute"! We'll all learn something over the next dozen posts.

Pssssst....Go with the 350 HO Muncie 4-speed.

hey guys what about what crank and its specs, what cam was the best ex.(068, 041 etc.)and its specs lift duration, which set of heads where the best ever ex.(6x or 4x or mistaken 191's) which rods and pistons and lifters were the best ex.(forged or aluminum or cast or hydraulic or rollers or solid) i was hoping to get some more responses than this well keep them coming please

Sprint 6 OHC. 230 cu inch with 215 hp, 240 ft lbs of torque, 6500 rpm factory red line, 4 bbl carb, dual exhaust and 30 mpg at 80 mph with a 2 speed tranny.

Gerry

this topic is not limited to FIREBIRDS its open to ALL PONTIAC MOTORS AND THEIR INSIDES(since they are all interchangeable) so feel free throw in GTO and rest of the family
joe

For most, I'm guessing it will be an opinion...
But obviously, some may say the Ram Air V motors, some may even say the experimental Pontiac all aluminum 427, putting out about 700 hp... And yes, pound for pound, the Sprint OHC, 215 HP from 230 CI is pretty impressive in stock form!

But in all reality, there are different motors better suited for different objectives. Some of the early SD 421's were built for drag racing and did that Very well, then in general, most of the R/A 400's and 428 engines of the late 60's were Hard to beat! Then the early 70's H.O. 400's & H.O./SD 455... well, just raw animals in stock form.

But then if you take all of these and mix and match, well then you get guys like Q who will take say a 455, and build heads to match the flow of a R/A V head and build the motor in such a way that he can wind his long stroked motor up to 7,000 rpms at whim... and drive it for years! (all on race gas... but **** !) But by mixing and matching, the possibilities are endless, and again, it all depends on what your goal is.

Street/Strip? Full Race, Straight line, road & handeling... daily use? See what I getting at?

I like the 400, 421 built mild, but stout, that you can wind up a little higher (or if built right, the 455 built up and tight is hard to beat in any circle)

Just the way I look at it all...

Brett - 67 Drop Top 455!

Nope ... you guys all all wrong.

For a factory motor, the best HP to CID ratio is the 421 SD from 1963. Check it out: Steel Crank, 4-bolt mains, forged SD rods with full-floating pins, forged pistons, solid lifter cam, best "ported" heads, factory aluminum dual quad manifold, etc.

Compare the track record of the 421 SD to any other Pontiac "Racing" motor - even the ram air 5 303 (Or the 366 - or even the Ram Air 5 400 that was supposed to go into the GTO and Trans Am in 1969 and 70) and you'll see that it can't be touched. Does it make a practical street motor, though?

Brett's right - this is an opinion question. Open the forum for opinions and you'll get better answers.

Q

PS: The 1966 Tri-power 389 delivered the best HP to CID ratio of any factory V-8 motor that you could get in a Pontiac on the delaer's lot without special order or dealer installed option. 360 HP on 389 CID. The only better ratio is - sure enough - the OHC 6 215 HP on 230 CID.

ok guys lets open this up to opinions but with very good reasoning to back it up! which set of heads are the best and which cam is the best????????? when giving opnions lets suggest motors and parts that can still be obtained fairly easy!

See? I knew you could be reasonable. Let me ask you something, though.

Why do you want to know? Are you looking for the best possible street motor? Or what, exactly. Like Brett said, there are so many ways to mix and match parts - it will all depend on the end result you want.

Q

What's going to be really cool is when you compare the replies here with the ones you are getting on the PY site. I just read that someone else said EXACTLY the same thing about the SD 421. Go figure.

Q

the quad 4 gets 140hp for 2.3 liters (~140ci)
thats 1 HP per cubic inch.

the ohc230 was rated at 207hp with a 4bbl

the ohc250 was rated at 215hp with 4bbl E cam,
and 230hp with 4bbl H cam.

ok quenton you are on to me real fast i am trying to find out this info to mix and match parts from different years to build the best possible combo STREET/DAILY USE ROAD RACE TYPE motor i can example say 400 or 455 with 4x or 6x heads either 068 or 041 cam i just dont know enough yet to out it together that is why i am asking for your opinions

Scott -

You're probably right. I think I was mixing and matching years and HP figures to come up with 215 HP out of 230 inches. I also found out that there is a 330 HP 350, making it slightly better than the 389 for power to cubes. (The 230 at 250 just misses the 389's mark. But the 330 at 350 beat them both.)

But these are all factory ratings. I am SURE that a Ram Air 4 428 will post better dyno numbers than even the 421 SD. (There is a Pontiac aluminum Ram Air 4 manifold for a 428. It differed from the 400 slightly, but I can't find any real useful information.)

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Quad 4 an Olds engine? I was always thinking the "Iron Duke" is the Poncho 4-cylinder powerhouse.

Now ... on to the REAL question.

A 455, with the right porting on the right set of 6X heads, an 068 copy-cam, factory intake, headers and the right gears in the rear end (3.55 to 3.73) will move your asterisk like nothing you've ever felt.

If you want to bullet-proof the bottom end, get a set of H-beam forged steel rods, (oops ... aftermarket!) ProGram 4-bolt main billet caps (oops ... aftermarket!), ARP studs and rod bolts (oops ... aftermarket!), BOP ream main seal (oops ... aftermarket!) Hey ... I wonder why Pontiacs need all this aftermarket stuff for the bottom end, and yet there are only two choices for heads? Makes you wonder sometimes...

Now, if you don't mind paying a lot of money for racing gas ...

Q

I would go with the 421 or the SD-455. The SD had the best factory rods ever, but the SD-421 rods were almost as strong. I had a '65 421 in my 'bird at one time & it was really tough. Held 50 lbs oil pressure to the day I tore it apart. It needed rebuilt badly, but would not quit! One time I drove the car to Wichita, KS and forgot to check my oil before the return trip. By the time I got to Topeka she was really making some noise! threw 2 qts. of oil in it & she quieted up.

Steve

originally posted by Quenton
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Quad 4 an Olds engine? I was always thinking the "Iron Duke" is the Poncho 4-cylinder powerhouse.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">originally posted by sixstarved
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">some would say this is not truly a pontiac motor. to them i would have to say :p </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">:D

hey Quenton what 350 out there is making 330 horse what year what specs?? and i dont want to pay a lot of money for racing gas (so what should i decided to go with what should i combo up and build for my firebird give me the break down)??????? are 421 SD's readily avaible as well as the internals can they be easily acquired?????? KEEP THEM COMING BOYS MORE OPINIONS NEEDED

1969 HO 350 with small-chamber, large valve #48 heads and the 744 cam. Not a common combination, but they did make a few.

I see SD421 stuff for sale once in a while. It's not cheap. I would say it falls into the "mostly-not-available" category, along with Ram Air 4 and 5 stuff. For the right price, I think you can find almost anything.

This has been "discussed" too many times to have one simple answer. You will find as many opinions as combinations. There's one thought that is universal: On the street, bigger is always better.

Start with the biggest engine you can, build it to last (but don't go crazy) using the "best" stock and aftermarket parts you can. Build it to run on 91 octane pump gas with 10% methanol like we have here in L.A. Use large valve heads but don't go crazy porting them. Have a professional set up your springs based on your cam profile. Use a cam with 215 to 230 degrees duration, or longer duration with Rhoads lifters. Use 1.65 rockers but make sure the push rod holes can handle them. Make sure the crank has all the oil passages enlarged and chamfered. Heat treat your rods, re-size them and use ARP bolts. Make sure your block is prepped by a very, very good shop. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point and everyone else fell asleep already.

I am starting to put together a 421/428(440). It has all that and more. It's going to be WAY overbuilt for street driving. That's just how I do things. But, I plan one day to turn some laps on a road racing course with the car, so I'm taking no chances.

I could honestly talk for hours about how I set-up and build my motors. Plus I'd love to wax philosophic about what combinations I'd love to try if I was a gazillionaire with nothing but time and money to spend. The engineers at Pontiac in the late 60's knew what they were doing. There's no reason to re-invent their wheel, except to take into account that they could get way better gas at the pump than we can.

Sorry for the long post. I forgot where I was.

Q

Edit: Dangit! I knew I should have checked my numbers! The 068 cam is the cam in the 350 HO, not the 744! My bad.

The 068 was in the 350 HO with a manual transmission.

Yep ... 067 cam in the automatic.

Q

You're probably right. I think I was mixing and matching years and HP figures to come up with 215 HP out of 230 inches. - Q

No, you were ok, the 67 Sprint I had was 230CI with 215 HP in stock form, then late 68 into 69 it went up to 250 CI.

I've looked this up in multiple sources, and was always impressed that my little straight 6 had a 4v carb and 215 HP in stock form... better than many V8's! And that always stuck with me...

Brett - 67 Drop Top 455!

OK ... but I'm sticking with my 421.

Maybe we should start another post with a title like "Budget Monster" or "Budget Killer Street Combos" and have everyone post their combo, or maybe post their favorite wishful thinking combo. I'd love to compare some notes on it.

Q

While looking up some facts on the OHC I found:

A 265 cid OHC6 was built for possible use in the Catalina and Tempest. It apparently had a longer stroke. One-barrel and four-barrel versions were built.

What became the 1966 230 cid OHC6 was originally to have been 215 cid.

In 1969, Pontiac built a 230 OHC 6 "Hemi". It had 325 gross hp.

Below is from:
http://www.firebirdgallery.com/67codes.htm

Firebird Sprint
The Sprint package added a heavy duty suspension, floor mounted gear shifter, and a healthier OHC6 featuring more cam and a 4BBL carburetor which produced 215bhp. This model can be identified by a set of "OHC-6 Sprint" badges that appear on the forward edge of the rocker panels and a thin set of stripes installed on the sides of the body. These differed from those used on the "HO" package. Cost of the Sprint package: $116.16

Scroll down to the engine codes, it lists it as 215HP @5,200 rpm

Sory for the long post to this already Long posting.. But I found it interesting and thought you might too?
Brett - 67 Drop Top 455!

66 230 4v and 67 230 4v auto B cam 207 hp
67 230 stickshift E cam 215hp.

i didnt know the '67 230 stickshifts had 215 hp until just now. thought they were all 207hp.
sorry
http://no25.homestead.com/page1.html

A, C & D are 1bbl cams.
B 4bbl 207 HP, E 4bbl 215HP, H 69 4bbl 4spd stick only -230 HP.

didn't mean to start a 6 cy debate here.

I think it's good to delve into these things. I mean, most of us get all caught up in our V-8's and forget that Pontiac had THE most unique motor of it's kind for a generation. I've kept mine because I just can't get over how different it is, and how people kinda go "WHOA" when you pop the hood and there sits a nice and (usually) shiny OHC 6 cam cover.

I admit I am one of the guys who bought one with the sole intention of transplanting a V-8 in its place. Had I known then, I mighta looked harder for a real 4-Bbl Sprint.

Thanks, Brett and Scott, for beating this in to the ground. I think we needed it.

Q

I'd love to get my hands on one of those 325hp "hemi" heads. i wonder if any are still around.
I think they were just experimental

i was at a show a few years ago, and a kid (about 11) comes up and asks where the rest of my engine is.

i said it's a couple car lengths ahead of a 5.0 ford.

i managed a good tire chirp in 2nd, later on my way out... with a 1bbl and a th350.

Nice reply, Scott!

Someone asked me where the squirrel was. I told him to check under each front tire, since they're not as nimble as the car is.

Q

My Sprint 6 has a column shift.

Gerry

Gerry, do you have the E cam or the B cam?
and is it the stock cam?

sorry, i have an inquiring mind. and this is bugging me to no end.

ps i also have the auto column shift.

i can only assume they didn't come with 3 on the tree. maybe they did. i always kinda liked that setup.

Not sure which cam I have. After 2 failed reground cams in the early 80's when new cams were not available, I bought a rebuilt sprint 6 for parts and swapped the cam and cover as a complete unit. It is an original low mileage cam showing virtually no wear. Only problem was the cam cover had been painted blue and my 6 is red like the car. Looked a little sick until I got in there with a drill and wire wheel to get the cover back to mildly polished aluminum and then highlighted with black on the "fins". Now she runs like a top. We are going to pull the cam later this spring (when the 326 coupe is done) to replace valve seals, check for wear and clean the blue paint I couldn't get to. I'll see if I can find out which cam I have then.

Gerry