not exactly......

Jim, do you actually believe someone would fall for this?...that its not a joke? If they did, then I agree 100% with Bjorn. They're too stupid to make an intelligent decision.

Your Daily Coz 2 minute fast cut compilation is laughable.

Saying that McCains position is the same is a bunch of bunk. McCain wants some restrictions put on the use of coal.

Obama clearly came right out and said he would bankrupt anyone who tries to build a new coal plant with new taxation.

This country desperately needs many new sources of electricity. Nuclear, natural gas and coal will be the primary sources for decades. Solar and wind will play a very minor role in it. the greenies would love for it to be different, but it just will not meet our needs.

I wish we could tax his emissions....lol

Your assertion, and the desperate last minute assertion of the McCain campaign, was that the Chronicle "sat on the tapes", which is a flat out lie, as pointed out in the KOS article. I can understand it is tough to click on a KOS link, but if I can click on Drudge- its only fair. ;-)
As per alternate energy, Obama has repeatedly endorsed all alternates that you mentioned, including clean coal, nuclear, and off shore drilling. And yes, the KOS link does show McCain "going Maverick" against his party and proposing government imposed financial penalties on high polluting energy sources. I'll agree Obama's statements appear to take that farther, and that he leans stronger to pursuing cleaner and renewable energy than polluting energy, but its disingenuous to imply that McCain and Obama are on opposite ends of this spectrum, and that the liberal media is protecting their secret Socialist darling.

John,
These guys are 'out of touch' and 'out of time'. The republicans will spew just about anything at this time being way behind in this race. We will watch them flail around like dry flounders for the next few days until they realized they are dead dinosaurs walkin'.
Laugh with me. I got Bjorn to spew that he wants to re-write the constitution. Now wasn't that special?

They do it (negative campaigning, smears, lies) because it works. And while I believe the Republicans do it more- (Karl Rove has nearly made it an art)- let's not drink so much Kool-Aid to say that the Democrats don't use the same tactics. Although I'm a proud liberal, I've never registered Democrat because they have no shortage of failings or corruption. However, thanks to the disaster of the Neocon movement, I will be voting straight-ticket Democrat for at least the next ten years.
I have some cautious optimism this year though, because it seems the smears are not working as effectively as they have in the past. We are in a new paradigm today with our media in the age of the internet, with so many of us getting info from the Drudges and Kos' of the world, which have clear agendas to support their respective parties. While such sites are useful, it's more and more incumbent on each of us to be aware of both arguments, give them all equal skepticism, and validate the facts on our own.

whats so special about that , liberal justices do it from the bench ALL the time!

and if it would be necessary to 'improve' upon something , why not?

How smart do you think all the voters were in 1700's? I'll leave the constitution and people's right to vote just how it is thank you. This reminds of someone playing a game and they can't win so they want to re-write the rules...

Woah there!!! I know we're supposed to be on the same team here- (liberal, communist, America haters), but I can't let that one sit!
In the 1700s, blacks and women did not have the right to vote, and it required two amendments to the constitution to fix it.
While I feel the Constitution must be followed to the letter, and not "just a [censored] piece of paper" as our current President said, the founders were very clear to make the Constitution a living document that could and should be amended to fit the changes of a growing and developing country. I for one, would love to see the electoral college abolished, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Still trying to find that Bjorn quote, tho... this is fun isn't it? Thanks Geoff for the bending of the site rules to discuss this historic moment. I'll be careful to be respectful to all the fascist idiots who disagree with me.
OOOOPS ;-)

Yes, I agree, thanks Geoff! He is one 'fair and balanced' site owner.

Jim if you didn't own a firebird I would have lost all respect I had for you after that one.

I'd offer to buy all your democratic friends calenders so they don't get confused but if your pal gets in he'll just take my money and redistribute it to your friends so they can buy there own.

The voters had nothing to do with the Constitution. It was authored by the most intelligent, educated, FREE individuals in the colonies who were brave enough to risk their own lives, the lives of their families, and their fortunes to introduce a better way of life...a democracy.

A lot of people still believe that Democrat=supporting a democracy. Sadly, this isn't the case. Another falsehood is that affiliation with a party means that a candidate believes in and supports the official party position. Which, of course, appears more centered than the reality of the goals of many politicians and jurists.

Use your intelligence, listen to the candidates and what they are saying, and figure out what those promises, if they come to be, will impact you. Not just the anticipated benefit, but also the cost of those benefits. Government cannot provide a product or service cheaper than free enterprise. It may carry a lower "out of pocket" price tag, but the real costs are many times higher.

Take, for example, table sugar. Sugar comes primarily from sugar beets and sugar cane. Here in Michigan, sugar beets are a major crop. The government GUARANTEES that the farmers will receive 24 cents per pound. The government GUARANTEES that the farmers will have 85% or more of the U.S. sugar market. But to please the UN, imports of sugar more than 15% of annual demand will be bought by the government, at WTO approved pricing, and it will be used for ethanol production. The amount of land planted for beets is also controlled, and farmers are paid not to grow if there is a sugar surplus. Why? Because the price of sugar might fall, and then we could export it, but Brazil, the #1 world producer and exporter of sugar, would lose a part of their market.

Since refined sugar is a WHOLE lot more expensive than the cellulosic materials that could be used for ethanol, such as sugar cane after extraction, and a WHOLE lot more expensive than corn which is the basis for most current ethanol production, the cost of this "greener" fuel is ridiculously high. So there is an additional government subsidy for ethanol brewers and refiners. Who pays these subsidies? We do.

And John and I agree....I also feel the Constitution must be followed to the letter, but as it has been amended before when we find something worth changing, we should still have that opportunity...but while in force,it should be followed verbatim until changed!
not sure which quote of mine you`re looking for??


and re how smart the voters were in the 1700`s as Jim asked....not so sure many of them were smarter of dumber...but the writers of the constitution were smart.....but I`m sure there could be things in todays society ,or tomorrows ,even they couldnt forsee.


again , I will say this again...I really appreciate the way this discussion is handled....not like it gets handled on PY`s Clubhouse!
its almost like we have adults discussing over here...lol

not sure which quote of mine you`re looking for??

The one where you said it would be a good idea to amend the constitution to limit voting to a certain level of 'smartness'. Which would exempt everybody who voted for Bush the second time from ever voting again... So that wouldn't win this election for you either.

hmmm, not sure why John couldn`t find that quote ,its just up abv....?

nah , I dont think the 'smartness' would be proven that way, more like a voters test, like a drivers ed test...give you a voters license...lol

re take ev 8 years...lol

Wow, what a thread!
Issues I see with Obama are many, but claims he is anti-American are founded.
1. Obama took the American flag off the tail of his campaign jet and replaced it with his own logo. No presidential candidate has ever removed the American flag from their campaign jet.

WRONG: his campaign leased the plane from North...y with the law.
EDIT: Ok, just to be fair here and show that facts should always rule- I am editing to show Snope's take, which is that he took the logo-flag off due to copyrighting issues, but did not replace it with any conventional flags.
Snopes on the flag.

2. Obama refuses to wear the little American flag pin that all American politicians wear.
WRONG:



3. Obama refuses to hold his hand over his heart during the playing of our National Anthem.
I remember when it was supposed to be he refused to hold his hand over his heart during the pledge- after repeated debunking, the story changed to the National Anthem based on a single photo of Obama during the anthem. Think a single photo tells the whole story? How about this one:


4. Michelle Obama stated she was never proud of her country until her husband was locked in as the Democratic candidate.
This is what she actually said: "for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback."
There is a difference between a gaffe or mis-speaking and someone's actual sentiment as expressed repeatedly. Do you think that Michelle Obama was truly never proud of her country before? - Laura Bush doesn't: In an interview with ABC News, Bush said that Obama’s February remark was misconstrued.
“I think she probably meant ‘I’m more proud.’ That’s what she really meant,”

5. Obama stated he would bomb northern Pakistan (our friends) to get Osama Bin Laden. By comparison, if Great Britain found that their #1 most wanted terrosist was hiding in Indianapolis Indiana, is it ok for Britain to bomb Indianapolis to get their man?
So, Pakistan are our friends and allies, equivalent as Indiana is to Britain? Did Indiana let Bin Laden get away in Tora Bora? Did Indiana publicly state that it would no longer pursue BIn Laden in its own territory, despite the widespread assumption that BIn Laden is there? Is Indiana filled with America-hating, terrorist training Madrassas, and do they refuse to do anything about it despite promising to do so? Is Indiana a military dictatorship that just assassinated an opposition candidate?
Obama said he would go into Pakistan to get Bin Laden if intelligence could locate him, even if Pakistan opposed. This is contrary to McCain's position, who thinks he should ask for permission from our "friends" before getting Bin Laden, but, ironically, identical to Sarah Palin's position.

6. He was friends with several anti-American terrorists (listed previously), some of which are extremely disturbing.
I recently attended a music concert with several convicted felons. While we had a common interest in the music, I would not consider any of them my "friends", nor do I have any connection to their felonies.

7. His church is racist and anti-American, yet Obama claims he didn't learn anything from them, even after attending that church every Sunday for the past 20 years.
Can't let this one go eh? Well, at least the Rebublicans never align themselves with religious fanatics.... ;-)
Our future president can and has addressed this subject much better than I can: Obama's speech on race and Reverend Wright



You know, 15 years ago, a person with these traits was called a flag burner, anti-American, and had the potential for instigating domestic terrorism. It's hard to believe this guy will be our President. Times have sure changed.
I call a flag burner a flag burner, when I have seen them burn a flag. I don't falsely accuse them of something just because I support the other candidate.

This is what our country is in for. Don't say we didn't warn you.
"I have to tell you, he is a decent person and a person that you do not have to be scared of as president of the United States," - John McCain

"So now you want to re-write the United States Constitution to include a provision about how smart you have to be to vote? And the 'trick' emails and fliers were not sent out as a joke at all. They were sent out as an underhanded trick to make people's votes not count. A political party that does this is not fit to lead our great country."

So, is a member of a political party "fit to lead our great country" when he's getting a BJ from an intern in the Oval Office?

maybe we will get the chance to find out....in 48 hrs....

now you`re playing unfair.....LOL

Right! That's just plain overblowing it! Or blowing it out of proportion, or something like that. LOL Did she inhale?

WOOOOHOOOO!!!

Well timed, Jim. WE needed a break.

Lighten up Jim. It's a joke.

Put all the conservative vs liberal, promises vs promises, experience vs experience aside. This about sums it up for me. I heard it read on radio today and just now a friend from out east sent it to me.

"You have to pinch yourself - a Marxist radical who all his life has been mentored by, sat at the feet of, worshiped with, befriended, endorsed the philosophy of, funded and been in turn funded, politically promoted and supported by a nexus comprising black power anti-white racists, Jew-haters, revolutionary Marxists, unrepentant former terrorists and Chicago mobsters, is on the verge of becoming President of the United States. And apparently it's considered impolite to say so." - Melanie Philips, The Spectator (UK) 10

I can understand the urge to vote for Obama for political reasons. I just don't understand how people can vote for him knowing his circle of friends.

Well, he locked it up now.

His grandma just died.

Look Jim,
Anyone can selectively pick from your life experiences and twist them into an ugly paragraph like this.
It's really sad to take a few things about a person who has given so much to the greater good of everyone he has touched in his career and spin them into garbage.
Nothing but smears without any substance. And smears are always impolite.....

nader is the man

So many generalizations...

One quote from 1776 that still rings true:

Has anyone else here read The Federalist Papers?

From #35:


What was true in 1788 holds true today.

Jim,
Do you know how close Obama's relationship is with William Ayers and what William Ayers is and has been? He has worked and partied with Ayers and his terrorist wife for many many years. English prof Ayers probably is the ghost-writer to Obama's main book. (The style is exactly like Ayers writings and nothing like other Obama writings.)

Obama attended Jeremiah Wright's church for 20 years, married the Obamas, baptized his childern, and Obama called him an uncle, mentor, and advisor. Have you heard the many tapes of Wright?

Do you know who Frank Davis is and his relationship with Obama?

And then there is Tony Rezko, Raila Odinga, and Rashid Khalidi. Each are horrible relationships.

Obama was the member of the socialist New party in Chicago.

I am voting for McCain. I am not a business owner but where I work we do jobs that relate to our defence. I do not know where Obama stand there ,but when Bill was in last the military cuts started my brother had to retire two years early. I do not want our shop to lose jobs. as you may know job shops are competitive.
we are one of the most taxed state in the northeast. I know Obama has acompished quite a bit but that is it he would get in office then do nothing he talks big and that is that. way too many people in his pockets(Fanny Mae)for one . I am sure McCaiin does too. In my heart I think McCain will work well for the people of the United States of America! Biden is a loose cannon.

.... a person who has given so much to the greater good of everyone he has touched in his career and spin them into garbage.
Nothing but smears without any substance. And smears are always impolite..... [/quote]

you`re talking about Obama? and kidding, right?

or do you actually believe that?....
" given so much to the greater good of everyone he has touched in his career"....

thats a mouthful...

Ayers has a past, that is for sure. But many other great people have a bad past. And many other good men have not shunned Ayers. If you look into any political candidate's past you can find some ugly people.

I have attended the same church since before I could walk. We have had some wonderfull leaders and some very bad leaders of our church. I have not left it because of a bad leader. It's a shame Barack had to leave his. That was terrible. The people that dwell on this should be ashamed of themselves.

Like I stated, you can twist and smear anyone's past. Most voters see it for what it is. That is why Barack Obama is very popular even with your smears.

you`re talking about Obama? and kidding, right?

or do you actually believe that?....
" given so much to the greater good of everyone he has touched in his career"....

thats a mouthful... [/quote]
You do not see it that way Bjorn because you can't see through your hate. Your contempt for him is not well veiled. You are biased beyond objectiveness.

Yeah, consider these left wing radical America haters:

Elected Officials:
Jim Leach, Former Congressman from Iowa

"For me, the national interest comes before party concerns, particularly internationally. We do need a new direction in American policy, and Obama has a sense of that."

Lincoln Chafee, Former United States Senator from Rhode Island

"As I look at the candidates in order who to vote for, certainly my kind of conservatism was reflected with Senator Obama, and those points are that we're fiscally conservative, we care about revenues matching expenditures, we also care about the environment, I think it's a traditional conservative value to care about clean air and clean water."

William Weld, Former Governor of Massachusetts

"It's not often you get a guy with his combination of qualities, chief among which I would say is the deep sense of calm he displays, and I think that's a product of his equally deep intelligence."

Arne Carlson, Former Governor of Minnesota

"I think we have in Barack Obama the clear possibility of a truly great president. I would contend that it's the most important election of my lifetime."

Wayne Gilchrest, Congressman from Maryland

"We can't use four more years of the same kind of policy that's somewhat haphazard, which leads to recklessness."

Charles Mathias, Former United States Senator and Congressman from Maryland

"My decision is based on the long-range needs of our country and which of these two candidates I feel is better suited to recharge America's economic health, restore its prestige abroad and inspire anew all people who cherish freedom and equality. For me, that person is Barack Obama."

Larry Pressler, Former Senator from South Dakota

"I just got the feeling that Obama will be able to handle this financial crisis better, and I like his financial team of [former Treasury Secretary Robert] Rubin and [former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul] Volcker better."

Richard Riordan, Former Mayor of Los Angeles

"I'm still a Republican, but I still will always vote for the person who I think will do the best job."

Lowell Weicker, Former Governor and Senator from Connecticut

"At issue is not the partisan politics of two parties, rather the image we have of ourselves as Americans. Senator Obama brings wisdom, kindness, and common sense to what is both his and our quest for a better America."

Claudine Schneider, Former Congressman from Rhode Island

Harris Fawell, Former Congressman from Illinois

Jim Whitaker, Fairbanks, Alaska Mayor

"If we are as a nation concerned with energy, then our consideration should be a national energy policy that is not predicated on crude oil 50 years into the future. We need to get to it, and I think Barack Obama is very clear in that regard."

William Milliken, Former Governor of Michigan

Phil Arthurhultz, Former Michigan State Senate Majority Leader

"I think he has the ability to bring America back as Reagan's 'shining city on the hill' as a beacon of hope to people."

Lou Thieblemont, Mayor of Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

"I'm sick and tired of the politics of fear in this country. He's the only one who doesn't do that."

Linwood Holton, Former Governor of Virginia

"Obama has a brain, and he isn't afraid to use it."



Columnists and Academics:
Jeffrey Hart, National Review Senior Editor

"It turns out that these political parties are not always either liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican. The Democrat, under certain conditions, can be the conservative."

Andrew Bacevich, Professor of International Relations at Boston University

"For conservatives, Obama represents a sliver of hope. McCain represents none at all. The choice turns out to be an easy one."

David Friedman, Economist and son of Milton and Rose Friedman

"I hope Obama wins. President Bush has clearly been a disaster from the standpoint of libertarians and conservatives because he has presided over an astonishing rise in government spending."

Christopher Buckley, Son of National Review founder William F. Buckley & former NR columnist

"Obama has in him-- I think, despite his sometimes airy-fairy 'We are the people we have been waiting for' silly rehtoric-- the potential to be a good, perhaps even great leader. He is, it seems clear enough, what the historical moment seems to be calling for."

Andrew Sullivan, Columnist for the Atlantic Monthly

"Obama's legislative record, speeches, and the way he has run his campaign reveal, I think, a very even temperament, a very sound judgment, and an intelligent pragmatism. Prudence is a word that is not inappropriate to him."

Wick Alison, Former publisher of the National Review

"I made the maximum donation to John McCain during the primaries, when there was still hope he might come to his senses. But I now see that Obama is almost the ideal candidate for this moment in American history."

Michael Smerconish, Columnist for the Philadelphia Enquirer

"...an Obama presidency holds the greatest chance for unifying us here at home and restoring our prestige around the globe."

CC Goldwater, Granddaughter of Barry Goldwater

"Nothing about the Republican tickets offers the hope America needs to regain its standing in the world, that's why we're going to support Barack Obama."

Government Officials:
Colin Powell, Secretary of State under Bush 43

"...he has met the standard of being a sucessful president, being an exceptional president. I think he is a transformational figure. He is a new generation coming into the world-- onto the world state, onto the American stage, and for that reason I'll be voting for Senator Barack Obama."

Ken Duberstein, White House Chief of Staff under Reagan

"Well let's put it this way-- I think Colin Powell's decision is in fact the good housekeeping seal of approval on Barack Obama."

Douglas Kmiec, Head of the Office of Legal Counsel under Reagan & Bush 41

"I was first attracted to government by Ronald Reagan, who lives in our national memory as a great leader and an inspiring communicator. Senator Obama has these gifts as well, but of course, more rhetorical flourish without substance would be worth little. Is there more to Senator Obama? I believe there is."

Charles Fried, Solicitor General of the United States under Reagan

"I admire Senator McCain and was glad to help in his campaign, and to be listed as doing so; but when I concluded that I must vote for Obama for the reason states in my letter, I felt it wrong to appear to be recommending to others a vote that I was not prepared to cast myself."

Jackson M. Andrews, Former Counsel to the U.S. Senate, & 1986 Republican Senatorial Nominee for Kentucky

"Barack Obama is a thoughtful visionary leader who as President will end the decline of American law, liberty, and fiscal responsibility that are the hallmarks of the extremist policies of the current Administration, now adopted by John McCain."

Susan Eisenhower, Granddaughter of President Eisenhower & President of the Eisenhower Group

"Given Obama's support among young people, I believe that he will be most invested in defending the interests of these rising generations and, therefore, the long-term interests of this nation as a whole."

Francis Fukuyama, Advisor to President Reagan

"...Obama probably has the greatest promise of delivering a different kind of politics."

Rita Hauser, Former White House intelligence advisor under George W. Bush

"McCain will continue the wrong-headed foreign policy decisions of Bush, while Obama will take us in a new direction."

Larry Hunter, Former President Reagan Policy Advisor

"I suspect Obama is more free-market friendly than he lets on. He taught at the University of Chicago, a hotbed of right-of-center thought. His economic advisers, notably Austan Goolsbee, recognize that ordinary citizens stand to gain more from open markets than from government meddling."

Scott McClellan, Former Press Secretary to President George W. Bush

"From the beginning I have said I am going to support the candidate that has the best chance for changing the way Washington works and getting things done and I will be voting for Barack Obama and clapping."

Bill Ruckelshaus, Served in the Nixon and Reagan administrations

"I'm not against McCain, I'm for Obama."

Ken Adelman, Served in the Ford administration

"The most important decision John McCain made in his long campaign was deciding on a running mate. That decision showed appalling lack of judgment... that selection contradicted McCain's main two, and best two, themes for his campaign-- Country First, and experience counts. Neither can he credibly claim, post-Palin pick."

Lilibet Hagel, Wife of Republican Senator Chuck Hagel

"This election is not about fighting phantom issues churned out by a top-notch slander machine. Most important, it is not about distracting the public-- you and me-- with whatever slurs someone thinks will stick."

Bruce Rabb, Served in the Nixon administration

George C. Lodge, Assistant Secretary of Labor under President Eisenhower

William B. Ewald, Jr., Special Assistant under President Eisenhower

Robert R. Bowie, Assistant Secretary for Policy Planning, Department of state 1953-1957

Jarold Kieffer, Assistant Secretary, Health, Education & Welfare, 1959-61

Roswell B. Perkins, Assistant Secretary, Health, Education & Welfare, 1954-56

Timothy Ashby, Served in the Reagan and Bush 41 administrations

"America needs a courageous and innovative president rather than one such as John McCain who would only perpetuate the failed Bush policies. On Nov. 4, this Reagan Republican is voting for Barack Obama."

Richard S. Seline, Finance Director, Republican Party of Texas

"Why do I support Obama as a Republican? His vision and focus is what I want for my child and my country."

David Caprara, Faith-Based Initiatives Director, Federal Volunteer Service Agency under Bush 43

"As president, Barack Obama would take the faith-based initiative started by President Bush to a new level in global affairs."

John Perry Barlow, Former Dick Cheney Campaign Manager

You do not see it that way Bjorn because you can't see through your hate. Your contempt for him is not well veiled. You are biased beyond objectiveness. [/quote]

hate??? what do you know about my hate or conempt? nothing... I dont hate him...I have no reason to...but I have no reason to believe in him either...show me one thing he has done that would make me think he will make a good president?
terrorist connections, socialist programs in his speecehes,that he wants to raise my taxes and re distribute my money?
I guess ,if he wins,( he`s evidently managed to fool quite a few) we will see in a couple of years if You or I were right about him....time will tell.....
I will not be like Alec Baldwin and promise to leave the country ,should my candidate lose, but I have thought about retiring and move to Sweden....but I hope Americans are quicker on the trigger than the Swedes were and can correct a mistake in my lifetime...

Jim, Would you sit , with your children and listen to hate garbage like "No, no, no, not God Bless America, God D*** America" and not walk out and never come back? We left our church, coincidently the same national denomination as Obama's, as we noticed the services bringing in more and more leftist views. Certainly it was subtle and not the hatred of Obama's church. Obama didn't leave because he was going there for political reasons. That mega-church provided a base for his Illinois political career. I could talk about his pre-Trinity Church religion but I won't here.

Obama didn't have a casual passing relationship with political fringe activist people. He sought them out and cultivated the relationships.
Even in college, from his own book, Dreams of my Fathers": "To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists."

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" --on the 9/11 attacks

I honestly can not understand why anyone would vote for Obama. I have not heard one SOLID reason from ANYONE as to why vote for him. I just don't get it!

"All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that."

Although I believe McCain was foolish to acknowledge Hagee's support, it is Hagee, not McCain, who made that statement. Just as Falwell made the preceding statement. And McCain is not a member of Hagee's congregation. There is a big difference.

Neither of them are running for President. Come up with something more substantial and factual.

I think that Obama was well packaged, and his "soft and gentle" approach, with strong oratory, is enough to cause a lot of people to abandon common sense and listen to the delivery, not the content.

Shades of Daniel Webster.