Still trying to get this thing street worthy. I thought the 235/60/15 would be a safe bet but I guess not. The front left tire rubs on the back of fender.






The other side seems to be ok.



I'm so dissapointed.
Some possible reasons for this that I can come up with are:

1.The Wheel Vintiques are the 8" wide with the 235/60/15 tires, so maybe the tires are just to darn big, but the other side seems fine.
2.I did the Goldstrand Mod. To much Caster possibley?
3. The sub frame was not lined up well enough. I centered the the alignment holes but didn't know to measure every thing at the time of assembly.
4. The sub frame being tweaked. I found at the time of assembly that the driver side fame horn(the stub of the frame by the bumpers that is past the crossmember was bent in. I had to use some spacers on the bumper brackets when mounting the bumpers.


Not sure what to do with this problem.

smaller tires?
Alinment rack?
New sub frame and try again?

Anyone ever run into this?

I have 225/70/15 and they are also just a touch too big. That's why I always suggest nothing larger than 215 IMO...

I would say your problem is the result of the combo of issues you listed.

If your subframe is bent, those big wide tires are not going to fit well. As for checking subframe alignment, the measurements are in the Service Manual. I checked mine with a homemade plumb bob, masking tape on the garage floor and a marking pen.

I have 235/60/15's on 15 x 7 Rally II's and I don't have any problems.

salmon, is your suspension completely stock? The reason I ask is that I installed my friends Rally IIs w/ 235/60/15 from his 68 GTO on my Bird and there was no way the fronts or backs would fit without rubbing.

So I went with 225 and they still rub just a bit both front and back and I have a completely stock front and rear suspension. Altough my front and rear springs are about 4-5 years old so maybe they have settled enough to cause the issues with the 235...

My suspension is not completely stock, but as far as what would affect wheel and tire geometry - it is.

I did a lot to research here to find the biggest wheel/tire combo that would fit without rubbing and the consensus was 235/60/15 on a 7 inch rim with (IIRC) 4.5 inch backspacing.

Is where my tire is rubbing the common place where they rub? I wonder if 7" rims would be better up front then the 8" for this issue or not. I have my old 14" rims with tires that I was going to test on the front.

I forgot to mention that I have the Hotchkis BB springs too. From what I remember of measureing the sub frame it has to be done with the engine out because of the diagnal measurements from the firewall to the end of the frame.

Hmm, this is definately interesting. Again when I put his set of rims and tires on my car, I could hardly get the rears inside the openings and when I did, they completely filled the well. 235s are huge and when you compare them to the stock 14" wheel/tire combos they are MUCH larger than what was designed for our cars. Like I mentioned above, even the 225s that I eneded up with rub lightly when going over a bump or making a tight turn...

I'd take it to an alignment shop first and have them look at it. Very obvious something is awry with frame/suspension or other.

you may also need to replace the wheel well bolts with flat heads... I am running 225/55ZR17 and I will rub the inside frame at full lock.. but the new bolts cleared the well.

We had 235's and they rubbed a little if we hit a bump. Ended up swiching them out with 225's and they fit fine. We have 15x7 rims. Looking at your picture you might want to try 215's.
We bought our tires from discount and they didnt charge us a cent to switch. Maybe the store you bought these from could do the same..?

I'm wondering what an alianment shop could do?

With the sheetmetal all hung would they loosen all the front end bolts? Would they even mess with body panels? If the frame is bent how do they straiten it without messing up the body panels? I have a local shop I will call tomorrow.

http://thefirstgensite.com/library/68sm/frmt/frmt.html

Did I mention how much this sucks? I really wanted the 235s all the way around but since I have less time and money then ever a flat bolt and smaller rim/tire might be my only solution.

For one, it doesn't look like your wheel is centered in the opening, that would be the first place you would have to start../

From the pictures (right vs. left side) the fact that the tire is so far back (on one side) indicated a subframe issue. Fist take some measurements off reference points from the rear of the front subframe to the rear subframe to see if the subframe is just not properly positioned. If that works out (and since you have damage to the front horns), most likely it's sustained subframe damage. If the subframe is in good shape otherwise (checkout the subframe mount positions for corrosion, other subframe damage), then a reputable shop should be able to straighten it.

Otherwise, you could buy from someone replacing theirs with an aftermarket, or go aftermarket yourself.

The effect you're showing is not a result of tire width, but of the overall height. The 235/60 is only about 1/4" taller than stock, which would move it only 1/8" closer to the end where you are rubbing.

If a 235 were going to rub it would be either on the inside frame or the inner fender depending on camber settings, suspension geometry (negative vs. positive dynamic castor) and backspace. A 235 will certainly fit, but you have to get the backspace correct, have negative camber gain, and at least 1/2" negative static camber. Plenty of us have even gotten a 245 in there, but this usually requires a larger diameter rim in order to get the backspace necessary to optimized the tire position.

P.S. if your subframe is tweaked, you shouldn't be band-aiding it by reducing tire diameter.

I will take some measurements, but I think your right on the money.

Anyone have a subframe for sale?

http://milwaukee.en.craigslist.org/pts/1264747558.html

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/pts/1264889841.html

http://newyork.en.craigslist.org/jsy/pts/1259385213.html

There's a few of them out there.

Here are some critical dimensions: http://thefirstgensite.com/library/crashsheets/Firebird%20Crash%20Sheet%205.jpg

This is all good to know and really sucks too. I put a lot of time and money into that frame. Welding it up, Guldstrand mod, welded in new mounting pads, sandblasted and painted.

I'm suprised that if its bent that I could line up the mounting points as well as I did and that the engine mounts also fell right into place.

If you hit the brakes hard ,does it pull to the side where the tire rubs? I had an Opel Kadett once with that same problem...it had been hit once ,and repaired , you couldnt see the damage , but the two wheel on drivers side were 1.5 inches closer than the right two...it would alwas pull to left when braking hard.

LOL. Its only gone down the road once. I still have a long ways to go. This is a major set back but I will keep working on it. I wish I would have figured this out before I spend 100 on the front end alinment. Actually I wish I would have figured this out before put any money into it.

I figure it would take me about 4-5 days to change out the frame once I get one.
1. Tear it down
2. Blast/Paint
3. Remove front clip and start changeing things over
4. put the clip back on
5. Align the metal back up.


I'm thinking a Nova frame would be easier for me to locate. I would like to find a decent one within a two hour drive. I will have to check out the junk yars around. Most of the old cars are gone around here. Are there any concerns I should know about with using a Nova Frame?

I have a set of alignement pins that I made that you could borrow. To me it looks like the frame has to move forward on that side. Did you line up the two holes in the middle mount. For the frame to be that bent that far back I would think that you would have a lot more problems than jst a tire not centered in the wheel well. What measurements did you use for the guldstrand mod? Are your ball joints in good condition? Also could it be a bent control arm?

I have the subframe from a ’68 Nova 4-door under my car.

The issue with donor subframes is matching it up to the lower control arms. That’s because the location of the lower control arm bump stop was completely different in ’67, ‘68’ and ’69. So you either have to use lower control arms from the same year as the subframe or aftermarket LCR’s with adjustable bump stop locations Obviously there is a problem if you have a ’67 Firebird and want to use a Nova subframe. I went to tubular upper and lower control arms so I was OK.

There is also now the option of going brand new. Rick's Camaros is now selling new repro subframes for all 3 years.

I think it is entirely possible it's not the subframe. Before you go and buy another or start tearing apart the car, get a few opinions and have the vehicle put on a hoist so you can measure some key points. It may stop you from chasing your tail.

I think it could be very possible that I don't have the frame bolted up strait since I didn't measure a single thing when I installed it and only eye balled the alignment holes. I know for a fact though that the driver side frame horn is bent so it is entirely possible that the frame is cockeyed. This seems to make sense considering that it's the same side as the problem I'm having.

I really dread the thought now of trying to adjust the frame. I would have to basically remove the front clip and exhaust. Realign the front sheet metal and the welded up exhaust wouldn't fit anymore.

Another lesson for me to learn the hard way.

Better to do it right, than to drive it around not being happy with it...and having your wife remind about it all the time!

Its a double edge sword. If she wasn't chewing me out for it not being right she would be chewing me out for how much time and money I spend on my hobby.

I have been trying to rack my brain on exactly what way the frame could be bent. There can only be about an inch of slop at the mounting points. But I guess like a lever with a pivot point a small change on one end = a big change on the other.

I will need to do some more thinking on this one.

measure from center of front wheel on left and right sides to center of rear wheels....easy! then you`ll know if its crooked....otherwise maybe body is bent and fenders are not equal... measure fender openings, from rear of front opening to front of rear opening, see if it matches...when those two measurements are taken , you can probably determine what it is...or isnt.

So Far the suggestions have been to measure from the back of the front sub frame to the rear of the back frame and also from the center of the tires on each side.

I think with a couple of plum bobs I could get some of the other measurements but the diagram shows taking the measurment from the center of the hole on the frame. Since I have a bushing there and would not be able to find the center I would have to pick a different refrence point.

pick a factory welded reference point like the back of the engine cradle and measure straight back to the axle tube. It will not be as precise, but your issue is in full inches, not fractions.

I got a lead on a 72 Ventura frame for a $150. I store my car at my dads house so I still have not had a chance to measure but I'm going to jump on this frame just in case I need it.

I will be measuring it out and make sure its not dimond, seeing how rusted it is at the mounting points and checking the lower A-arm bolt holes for elongation.

Any other checks I should do or things I should look for?

UPDATE!
I took a few measurements and this what I came up with.

Tire centers.
Passenger side=108 1/4
Driver side=108 1/8

Sub Frame to back spring perch bolt.
Passeger side=33
Driver side=33 1/8

This is the interesting one.
With the tires pointed strait ahead the gap from the tire to the fender.
Passenger side=2 1/2
Driver side=2 1/4

With the tires turned to the right I can just barley get a finger width between the tire and fender. On the passenger side with the tires turned to the left the tire just barely rubs.

I did take the advice and swaped out the fender bolt that the tire was touching with a round head bolt. I was thinking of rolling the bottem of the finder just a bit or loosening it up and prying it back a little. I'm thinking I could do a big smokey burnout and swap the back tires for the front too. It doesn't seem the frame is bent and the problem isn't bad enough to worry to much about now.

With those numbers (looks a lot worse in the picture) seems like bent frame is not the issue. Normally,you can't put that much positive caster in the thing, so wheel alignment is not the issue either. A lot of people run a 26.1" tire too (and up to 245 width), so that shouldn't affect it. So with that you should not be having these issues. But you do, so something else must be wrong.

My bet is the subframe is sitting too far back on the body. If you do a search you can find directions on how get it properly lined up. I'd do that since it will have an effect on handling, will limit how much positive cster you can put in the alignment, affect clearance to the distributer (probably not critical unless you go HEI), and looks a little goofy. I know you just want to get it on the road, but it's a nice car, don't band-aid fix it.

is this link good for 69' Birds also ?

The spec sheet is all I have ever found last time I looked a couple of weeks ago. I would love to read up on some more information.

I'm pondering your suggestion of moving the sub frame forward. I think a 1/2 inch would be plenty. Since its not bent like I thought It seems this might be possible without having to adjust the sheet metal? The fenders, door and hood attach to the shell not the frame. The front of the fenders attach to the core support thats attached to the frame with the big rubber bushings. The engine and Tranny move with the frame and the drive shaft will just slide a little. I should have a little slop in the brake and fuel line. The bumper would move forward and my need a quick adjustment. The exhaust should have a little play and since the frame would move strait forward I wouldn't have to worry about the x crossover and having miss matched pipes to the engine. Steering at the firewall would need lossened. Anything I'm missing?

Or I could see if the bottem of the one fender would adjust back a little. Loosen the two bottem fender bolts and see if it could be pried back just a little. I'm afraid This wouldn't work or worse bend or chip something.

I'm thinking I could loosen the body mounts and use a couple bottle jacks with some 4x4s pried against the rearend.

I did the guldstrand mod on this car and the caster is 3.10 Left and 2.96 Right. The A-arms both have 3 shims in the back and none in the front. The Hotchkis BB lowering springs didn't help either. When I jacked the car up a little it didn't rub anymore.

http://thefirstgensite.com/library/67fisherbody/FIB67S3.pdf Instructions for the '67 are here. Procedures will be the same for all years, though dimensions may vary.

The Underbody chapter of the Fisher Body manual contains this information.

Wow I wish I would have read the whole thing before. They say it should be withing a 1/16 of a inch.

I have 4° caster, so technically my tire should be closer. Each side measured within 1/16 inch on the closest distance from tire to fender with wheels straight ahead. If you factor in the difference in tire height, I'd have a minimum of 2" gap. (Measured to fender opening, not the bolt head).

On the closer side, with the wheel turned I still had .175" gap (again tire diameter factored) on the shorter of the two. To just the fender opening, I could put a finger between either side.

What I can't figure out, is why yours has that much variability with the tire turned.

I wonder if the difference is in the wider rims. The wheel Vintiques rims I think have a deeper backspacing. I will have to measure this again.

Mine are 8" wide with 5" backspacing.

Still don't get why your right moves closer than your left unless you have different width rims on each side.