Have gotten into bidding war on matching # 67 convertible. Wondering if worth the extra dollars, knowing it will need a rebuild. There are lots of rebuilt 400's with out matching numbers out there. Any advice

First, make sure it is matching. There are not many 67's with matching numbers. Most of the year the numbers were not punched on the block. Some say "numbers matching" when they have a close date code. If it truely is the original engine you can add as much as $10000 on a high end finished car. A numbers matching car is always a better investment.
Jim

My opinion...convertible adds $$ to the "value", matching numbers adds $$ to the "value". Both add to the ownership experience. I'd say pay no more than 10% additional if it's in good shape for an ordinary car (not a T/A or something really rare) or less if not running as it may not really be rebuildable in the end. It all comes down to what are you willing to pay, because if you buy as an investment alone you're not going to make money. Also, if the engine turns out to be shot, you've just lost that claim for originality.

Jim, I like the sound of a $10,000 premium for a "numbers matching" car. My '69 is numbers matching, body, engine, trans and is as correct as I can make it. I'd estimate its value is only about $1500 - $2500 higher than a non-numbers matching "correct" car, and the insurance company doesn't care one way or the other.

If it was an extremely limited production car, like a Ram Air IV or a T/A, I can see that a big premium could be realistic if the car is valued at $40,000 or more. I don't think too many of us are in that situation

My numbers matching 69 convertible is worth at least $5000 extra because it's numbers matching.(IMO) A 400 car is not even a 400 car without the original engine(IMO). If you look at it that way I think you can see my point because a 400 car is worth considerably more than something less. All the appraisal books point this out. When I said as much as $10000 on a high end car that was the wrong(IMO). Now that I further consider this I think I was a little conservative. It could be as much as $50000 on the right car.
Jim

Remember our other discussion -

You can determine an exact match on a '67 model car by comparing the Engine Unit Number stamped on the block to the Billing History Sheet from Pontiac Historical Services. I reverified mine the other night and it works.

Unfortuately, it's going to be tough to get the paperwork fast enough for a car on an auction.

You can get a PHS in one day by fax. You would have to specifically ask them for that page.
Jim

The seller has the phs billing page showing the yt and 6 digit engine number that is also on the block. So based on that info and the current for sale out there showing only 3 cars with matching numbers we bid this thing up to $15,500 and won. From here I would like to bug you veterans with advice on restoring this car. Thx HD

Hey HD,
Excellent! Congrats! I would be honored to answer any questions. Please give us some pictures as soon as possible. Especially the vin on the block. We need that to settle a debate.
Jim

Jim,

I haven't seen your car, so I cannot objectively compare it to mine. When getting an appraisal for insurance purposes, having a "numbers match" 400 convertible merely got it a check mark on the column. My car is not perfect but very nice, unrebuilt original engine, trans, rear end, manifold, carb, distributor, radiator, wiring, air cleaner, A/C, etc.

I bought this car last year for $14,500. I could replace it for that, or maybe a little more. So if it was a non-numbers matching almost every option 1969 400 convertible I should have been able to buy it for $9,500 or less? In my dreams!

In a way, there is a little bit of a downside in owning a numbers-match car, and that is the moral obligation to make no irreversible changes. It's the same with my 183 year old timber frame house; when I am doing restoration work, I need to look at the long term effect. So our house still has the original 183 year old windows, with handmade wooden storms, instead of slightly more efficient but out of context vinyl windows.

Ask 100 people for an appraisal, you'll get 100 answers. HD, enjoy your car and the great people on this board. Post some photos so we can see what you have!

Vikki,
Yow! We live in a 150 year old house with vinyl clad windows! I kind of did a "frame off" on it and used some aftermarket parts. That's what happens when you are in a hurry. It looks similar to original from a distance.

Hypothetically, any 1st gen, numbers matching, 400 convertible will fetch $25,000 if it's nice enough. The same car, not numbers matching, "might" bring $20,000 because you will not attract all the people that the numbers car will.

Jim

Outstanding HD. Is this the same car you asked about engine originality last week or do you now have TWO '67 400's?

The originality/restoration issue is why the orginal 400 engine to my numbers matching 67 is sitting on a engine stand and will remain there. I am piecing together a 455 block that I can go have fun with.

This is the same car. Not ready for two yet. But what I am hearing is that Not rebuilding this engine might make the car worth more? It runs and is not burning oil, but I thought next stop might be the machine shop.

I'm going to run my numbers matching 400 engine. I'm fairly confident that I won't damage it beyond repair. When I want to really beat on something I'll beat the chevy. Parts are cheaper! Jim

Fbody69 I looked at you sight quite a car. Have you rebuilt it back to factory spec's?

Putting my engine on a stand in the garage wouldn't help much...if I'm gonna thrash it, the whole car is going to feel it! Since all the components match, if I break one part or wreck the body the whole thing is no longer numbers match. I'd need to store the whole car and have another one to play with . So I'll be careful and take my chances.

You guys might want to go to the Barrett Jackson auction in Scottsdale or the Auburn, IN auction and check out what some of these cars are bringing. A frame off nut and bolt restored MATCHING NUMBER 400 car (there) will bring a lot more than the prices I see above. On this type of concouse restoration...matching numbers will make MORE than $10K difference in what the car will bring. However, for a very nice driver car $3K to $5k premium is probably about right.

I saw this Blue Bird on Ebay and $15k is a very good deal in my opinion.

HD,
Yes, I built it to factory specs. It's a little further along than the site shows. It's not quite finished yet so I haven't test drove it. I'm taking my time and it will be ready next spring. Thanks!

Yellowbird,
I agree about the engine and thrashing. I think everyone should have a Chevy to thrash. The problem with that is Barrett Jackson says my beater is worth $30000+! I guess I'm going to have to get an Olds or a Buick to beat on.

Jamiel,
I agree that the prices quoted are low. I have recently sold two 400 coupes for around $15000 each. They both had room for improvement so the prices could have been higher if they were improved. Convertibles always go for a considerable amount more. With that said, it's great to pick one up cheap!
Jim

matching no`s will be worth more when you sell, (for your own enjoyment while you drive , naaah)...but if you 'show' the car ,yes its worth it.... for a nice car add 5-10K for that matching no`s issue....
my car is not matching no`s,not even correct year engine...but I really enjoy the car cruising.....and 'most' people wont know ,still think the car is nice, obviously I dont 'show' my car ,it was never the intent...
everyone has their own reasons for these cars ,so....if you want to show it ,yes get matching no`s, if you want an 'investment', yes...
but I think all the cars , matching no`s or not are going to be having a 'value', just less so w non matching numbers car ,but at least you`re less worried about totalling it/wrecking it if its not matching no`s...I drive the heck out of mine, thats why I got my car...so I dont care about the no`s...

If my high curb appeal '69 is really worth $25,000 then I've made a good investment, though that was not the original idea. $14,500 for the car, about $1,500 in replacing missing pieces (power antenna, air cleaner) plus tuneup, exhaust, brake and suspension work. Still have to recover the seats, but then the car will look as nice as any non-frame off restoration.

What cars go for at classic auctions and on sites like volocars.com is not necessarily representative of the market. Some of those cars may be perfect enough to command such a premium, but I would say that is not typical of FGFs in general. I seem to recall limited response on some "overpriced" birds on the FGF for sale ads. Look at traderonline.com and gaspumpclassics.com for a completely different level of pricing. And a frame off, immaculate restoration of a '69 Firebird convertible done here in Michigan and featured in HPP (done by high school kids in auto shop) just sold for less than $20,000. I've seen the car and took pictures, it is incredibly clean but needs some detailing under the hood.

My old '70 'Cuda 440-6 was a far better investment...I had $1500 into it, sold it for $4500, and they're now going for $50,000 plus. Maybe Firebirds will shoot off the charts now that they are extinct, but how many of us will sell them to realize the appreciation?

You can't expect to get a premium for cars that aren't DONE period. If you don't clean up every part of the car forget the big money. If you start saying a car is clean and then add some BUTS forget it. Take Gary Plowman's National trophy winning convertible for example. He would get $25000+ for that car in a second.

I advertised on FGF(thanks) both of the coupes I sold for $15000 each. They sold and that's the market PERIOD. Both buyers loved their cars and still do. In this thread HD bought a project car for $15000 and had competition bidding. That's the market, PERIOD. What more proof do you need. You could say that the people paying big money are crazy but they got what they wanted. Don't you think the people paying whopping amounts for Camaros and Cudas are crazy?? Yep, car crazy, aren't we all.

Look out Camaros the Birds are creeping up!!!

Mopars, you're next!

Jim

I absolutely agree that a Nationals winning car should command a premium, up to double the price of a functional, everyday driver that hasn't been restored but is reasonably intact.

A lot of the value is balanced by the cost of getting the car to that point. There is a significant investment in paint and body that even an extremely clean starter car will require to reach the level of Gary's car. My point is, the few select truly awesome examples and the few cars that are both desirable enough and rare enough to command premium pricing don't have much in common with the everyday cars we drive, no matter how nice they may be. Looking at my highly optioned, high performance, convertible car, knowing the imperfections that aren't immediately visible but would certainly not pass muster at Nationals, it would most likely take upwards of $10,000 to do the frame-off body and paint work that would bring the car up to National show quality. At that point, if the car was then worth $30,000, I would almost have to sell the car because I then wouldn't be as willing to go out and have fun with it. And at that point, I'd only just recoup my costs.

There are also some low-optioned, base, or too far gone cars that no matter how beautifully restored they may be may never recoup the investment. A 6 cylinder 2 speed or 326 2 speed coupe with base packages may not draw enough interest to break even, and same with a body that was at the edge of restorability, even if they are "numbers match" cars. And if they aren't numbers match, does that make them less worthy of restoration?

I feel strongly that if ordinary cars become overpriced because the prime examples are commanding high prices, then Firebirds may lose some of their appeal with entry-level buyers, or may encourage cloning of base models into more desirable versions. Cloning doesn't seem to be too big a problem yet with Firebirds, other than Trans Ams, unlike all the Camaros that turned into RS/SS after the fact, or the Lemans that morph into Judge. PHS may have some influence on that. Maybe we appreciate all our Firebird variations for what they are, instead of what they could have been. I think it's great that there are groups supporting the OHC6, you don't see Nova or Camaro owners proud to say they have a 6 under the hood!

Thanks for the props Yellowbird! OHC 6 birds don't get enough respect. (other than on this site and OHC 6 Forum) I know that my car (Sprint/4spd/vert) will not be worth what I have in it when finished with the frame off, but will have something VERY nice, rare, and unique......

I'm doing a total rebuild of a 69 convertible. I was planning on going all original, but this is the car I've wanted since I was a kid. I don't ever intend to sell it, so I will build it the way I want it. 428 tri-power, four wheel disc, Vintage air, tubular control arms etc. It will take close to four years (when I have the time, no money, and vice versa). So matching numbers is great, but so is having a bird that you really love and enjoy.

I went the "real" restoration route with my last project - a 1980 Turbo Trans Am WS6. I got very picky about correct parts, colors, decals etc, and I spent 4 years and about $18K.

When I was finished I had a car I did not like. It had no power, the brakes where mushy (despite the 4 discs), the front seats were uncomfortable for long trips and they did not recline. It looked absolutely beautiful and the staightest body I have ever seen. Yet, it was a VERY unpopular model of T/A and I had a terrible time selling the car. I finally got $6,500 for it.

I guess my feelings have a lot to do with why I like cars. I love rebuilding them and DRIVING them.

I entered a few car shows with that T/A and the Mustang GT I had before it. To be honest, I would rather watch paint dry. A car show to me is old after about an hour or 2 when I have seen everything. If you have entered the show - you are stuck there until they hand out the awards. Sorry, but that's me.

So I actually went out looking for my 1st Gen 'Bird to correct all the things I felt I did wrong with the T/A. I was determined to have a real muscle car (less weight, real motor) that looked very cool, handled well and was comfortable to drive.

Now, on the other hand, the modifications I have made or plan are going to be tasteful. It's going to look pretty darn stock from the outside. No wild custom multi-color paint jobs, or flames, or fender flairs...Nothing (I hope) that would cause Pontiac fans to say "OMG, WHY did he do THAT!!!"

I've put on front disk and larger 11 inch rear brakes. I put in an aftermarket tilt steering column painted black to match the original. My front suspension mods won't be noticable unless you crawl under the car. I replaced all the factory paint daubs and added some more based on a modified factory color scheme that I came up with (sure helped putting it back together!) I have purchased some VERY comfy Corbeau seats and had the front and rear seats recovered in close to the original parchment color mimicking the original seat uphostery patterns. I put on 15 inch Rally II's, a Rally gauge cluster, and a factory console clock. All options I wished this car had come with. I've invested in a heck of a lot of NOS parts like the fenders, rad support, pitman arm.... Stuff like that.

I am keeping the original matching 400 engine and other parts like the original front seats for the future in case I swing back into the "total originality" mode. I am also VERY appreciative of those of you out there like Gary and Jim that are TOTALLY faithful and allow the rest of us to still enjoy these cars in there original state.

Have I had twinges of guilt "modifying" a top of the line version of the unique 1st year of a popular car? Yes. Especially since this car turned out to be numbers matching while that T/A was not. I actually went out looking for a less popular 326 or 350 car that I could modify with less guilt, but this car was just too nice to walk away from.

My aim is not to ever have this car judged or to make any money off of it. It will be what I want it to be. There is a PowerPoint note in the windshield that I made 8 years ago - it says "This is NOT a restoration, this is a street machine". And I am certainly having a heck of a lot of fun putting this car back together and I plan for that joy to continue after it's back on the road.

OK, you can flame me now.

Build it for the end-user! And I may flame my '69 Trans Am convertible just because .. I can! (Okay, so it's a model)

Salmon , I totally agree w you , you`re doing the right thing (in MY judgement), Its not fun to have a car you cant enjoy , but some guys enjoy showing theirs whether trailer queens or driving cars...some of us enjoy working on them....myself , I enjoy DRIVING it...not fond of working on it , thats just necessary evil...lol

I believe it is up to the owner , as to what he wants to do with his car. i remember a thread awhile ago, that 69firebirdman was parting out a high optioned 69 bird. he got criticized for it. He was stating it was very rough and should be parted. I don't know Terry,just read some of the things he has to say,but why was he getting ripped. He wanted to part it out to make money. Some put their birds together to race, some original,some as daily drivers,others pro street others parts them out. It is the diversity of views for this beautiful car that makes it what it is, and is the reason this site is even alive. we would not even be typing to each other if not for the diversity of views for this type of car. I believe there is an appreciation for all LEVELS of 1st gen birds. That is why i am on this site. Not to impress anybody with knowledge, the Lord knows i am limited after all these years of not working on these cars,but because we appreciate the common interest about this type of car. I know that the car I have had for 28 years is priceless to me. you could not give me enough for it. The sentimental value far exceeds anything a high end car could bring at a high end auction. Many of you have that same type of car. PRICELESS
Wade

You know what the problem with a # matching car is? When the owner of one has it in a car show there is always some jack *$$ that picks it apart. He will mudder to his buddy every flaw the car has. God for bid the owner do anything that was not factory to the car. Thats why ill take a "400 clone" bird. I would rather talk to a owner thats done all the work to his car himself than someone that paid big bucks for a # matching and the only thing he know is how to drive it onto the trailer. Not saying all high dollar but most high dollar cars the owners have done very little work to the cars themselves. They just write the checks out. While less valued cars the owners seem to do alot of work themselves. Thats who I like to talk to at a car show..Just my2cents Joe

In our car-conscious country, our cars are an expression of our personalities. Some of us are bold enough to create something that is such a personalized work of art that it is bound to infuriate a purist. Others are so bound to perfection that their car is no longer the joy they envisioned it would be. But I'd say the majority of us are in the middle group, like Salmon, willing to make changes, some permanent, that add to our personal enjoyment and enhance the performance. The changes on my car are reversible, but add to its performance, safety and comfort. I'm not about to use oil shocks when gas shocks are available, or to choose belted tires for street driving when performance radials are available. But no matter what I do, the car will still be identifiable as a Firebird.

The problem is that the high auction prices also have an effect on the purchase price of the midrange cars. Owners of an old rustbucket car sitting behind a garage for 20 years see a car "just like theirs" sell for $40,000 and think theirs is then worth $10,000 when in truth it should be hauled off for parts. Okay, that may be an exaggeration, but I hope you see what I mean. If the price for rebuildable cars goes too high, how many of us will be able to come up with that much money for a car that we can't drive and have to spend a lot more time and money to make functional? Then 'birds will become like the desirable 'Vettes...out of reach unless you have enough money.

Popularity can be a bad thing. You can buy a very nice Corvair, restored, for $10,000...because so few people want them. Most of us are limited on what we can spend on our cars by other financial demands, and when things get tough, extras, like our cars, are the first to be cut from the budget.

And Joe, there is something to keep in mind in the DIY vs. bought topic...emotional investment. I had a prior car I spent 13 years working on, buying the correct parts, doing all the work myself. It never got done, because kids, houses, jobs, and other things had to come first. With my 'bird, the car was bought as an older restoration (20 years) and was in need of re-restoration and completion of the first restoration. That's what I've been doing. It's not easy finding correct parts like the power antenna, and I do have a lot of emotional, financial, and labor investment in the project and am very protective of my car. No, it's not perfect, but I go to shows and cruises because I enjoy my car and hope someone else may be able to relate to it, too. I haven't won a trophy, and the cars that did were far nicer than mine, but I get a lot of compliments because the trophy comes with the small details.

This post started out a question of matching numbers on an engine changing the value of a car. It does not matter what mods you have. One of the coupes that I sold for $15000 had the original engine on a stand. The car was greatly modified and just resembled it's factory self. To sum it up: people appreciate how hard it is to bring that original engine along with that special car through time. It has nothing to do with mods or entry level prices or who restored what or how.
A numbers matchng engine is a thing of wonder like some NOS parts you can find. The rarer the part, the more the NOS version is worth. The rarer the engine, the more the numbers matching one is worth.
Jim

That doesn't make sense to me. If you have an original, unrebuilt engine it is worth X dollars to someone. If you have an original, unrestored car it is worth X dollars to someone. If the two match, and you have an original car with its original engine, it is worth X+X+Y, the matching numbers premium. If, however, the matching engine has been totally modified and only the block casting number and serial number are original, the Y factor changes. If the body has been tubbed, permanent suspension modifications made, things of that nature, the Y factor changes too. Once a car is modified to a certain level, it ceases to be what it once was. Numbers matching or not, it isn't what was built. A stock car may have been a Firebird, but it isn't a Firebird, it's a stock car. You can't look up its value in a book.

People will pay to get what they want. You obviously had cars for sale that satisfied the buyers. Some buyers will be looking for more original cars, some for more finished cars, some for higher performance cars, some for rarer cars. Most will find something they like. Some won't find cars that fit their budget and dreams.

Every car was once numbers matching. Why are so many cars not numbers-matching? A kid just brough his '70 GTO into a local shop to get his engine swapped for something newer, he didn't think the old engine ran well enough. I think he just didn't have a clue what points were, or how to set them. Now there is one more car not numbers-matching.

Great points, all!

Big Joe: I forgot about that other car show factor - the fun of sitting in a chair behind your car having to listen to arm chair "experts" pick it apart. I hate that.

Yellowbird: Your point about modifications to the numbers matching parts is right on. My orginal 400 engine is sitting in a condition that would equate to it's greatest "value". Worn but unmachined. One of the things that pushed me down the 455 path was the thought of how much machining would have to be done to the virgin 670 heads so the motor would run on todays gas.

But Jim is right - back to the original question. If you like the idea of someday making money off your car, or enjoy the idea of Concours judging, then keeping the car original and numbers matching is essential.

And many thanks for the vote Bjorn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> And many thanks for the vote Bjorn.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You made yourself deserve it!

I know this is off the subject. just asking for FYI. I noticed salmon told Bjorn thank you for the vote. I noticed I have a vote. How does that work and what does it mean? Sorry to get off post, just curious. thank you
Wade

Wade, you must have done something someone liked. that person clicked on your member rating/rate member icon, and proceeded to rate you. it can be turned off if you prefer not to be rated, but you might get bugged to turn it on again.

it just means someone rated you. we like people even without stars on thars.

Great reply, Scott!

Yellowbird,

I just figured out why you didn't pay matching number prices for your convertible: The owner didn't know it was numbers matching.

How can you use your car as an example with a factor like that left out?


Jim

Jim,

Simply because I've seen other numbers matching cars go for similar prices. A fully restored '69 convertible that was featured in HPP just sold for under $20,000 to a new acquaintance of mine. A '69 Sprint convertible, numbers match, just sold for less than the $4500 asking price (needing total restoration, but almost complete). And before buying this car, and afterward, I looked at a lot of listings from a lot of sources and found I could replace the '69 Firebird convertible with a similar condition numbers match car for around $17,000 (last year) but would have a harder time finding a car with all the options. The options seem to add more to the value than the numbers-match alone.

And my car is an example...not all owners will know or care about numbers match. Out of my whole collection of cars, I had only two that were not numbers match, and it was not an issue in my purchasing. The sellers made no big deal about it either.

Yellowbird,

1. You said that you, the previous owner and the market did not know that your car was numbers matching when you bought it.

2. You said you paid $14,500 for it.

=3. You paid $14,500 for a non-numbers matching car that needed some work.

4.If the car was advertised correctly as a highly optioned, numbers matching car it would have went for more.

5.When things aren't advertised correctly they are not a true representaton of the market and should not be used as an example of the market.

Jim