Hey all,
I am new here and hope to have my first firebird soon! I was hoping to get some info on weather or not my deal is a fair one. I can buy a 69 firebird, originally 326 auto, now a 400 auto. It has a 67 gto 400 motor and trans which supposidly run and were rebuilt (haven't seen them yet). It needs the quarter panels to be cut out and replaced, needs new front wheel wells, minor pin hole rust in the truck, and floor pans are solid. The frame is supposidly in good shape (haven't seen it yet). The hood needs to be replaced. The rear window and two quarter windows need to be replaced. The is no visible body rust (except the quarter panels). The interior is about 50 percent there. Missing dash, carpet, piller trims, and headliner. Rear seats are original, fronts are not.

I can get this car for $2500 and it has a title. If the frame is solid and the body is solid underneath, is this a good deal?

What should I look for when I go see this car?

Thanks, James

Forgot a few details. There is minor rust around the rear window, the decklid may need replacement (not sure), and the rocker panels are in "good" shape.
Thanks again!

What do you want to end up with when you are done? You could spend anywhere from $10k to $15k for a full restoration.

'69 firebirds never came with a 326, that was '67 only. Your car likely came with either a 350 or an inline six.

If the car currently runs and drives, 2500 is kind of a going rate. If the car and drivetrain is all in pieces, that is likely a bit high.

Posting pictures of the vehicle here would help a lot. You can also order "PHS" with the car's VIN number and have a printout of how your car was built. Go to PHS-online.com and check that out. You nedd to be very careful about rust. Any car that has major rear quarter rust and inner front well rust will likely have tons of additional rust. A lot of hidden nightmares can be found under a fresh coat of paint or primer.

you need to see the car , look it over ,so that its actually like you`ve been told , or as you told here..IF it is...its an 'ok' deal....nothing great , but not bad...IF it runs and is driveable...
If you can , drive it, get it on a lift, check it out...

You're right, according to the vin description (223379u104013), it was a V8 sport coupe. Wow, the PHS is $65...is it really worth it? I don't know if the front wheel wells were removed because of rust or to fit the 400/make it a drag car. The car has nasty paint on it and I will check for bondo/rust. The motor and trans are installed and supposidly the car runs but needs brakes.

I don't want to do a complete restoration to original, but would keep the 400 motor and try to convert it to a manual trans. Redo the bushings and shocks, clean up/tune up the motor. Repair body and clean up and complete the interior.

Are there any areas in particular where rust will be a big problem?
Is a conversion to manual on this car with the 400 motor very costly/difficult?

I do not have any pics that I can post yet, but will post some when I get them.

Thanks for the info!
I'm trying not to get too excited but look at the price as being fair or not.

So if it is as I described (solid frame, solid floor/trunk pans, trans and motor run and shift, no gaping rust holes). And needs new(brakes, quarter panels, rear & quarter windows, hood, maybe trunk, dash, headliner).
Does $2500 sound like a better than "ok" deal, or should I try to get it for less. I don't think the seller will budge and I don't want to be cheap if the price is fair.

How much would this car sell for if it was a stripped and primed body on frame with wheels (rolling chassis) and no motor or interior? I need to have a backup plan if the restoration becomes impossible for me!

Thanks again

Is a conversion to manual on this car with the 400 motor very costly/difficult?

Thanks for the info!
I'm trying not to get too excited but look at the price as being fair or not. [/quote]

Conversion to manual trans is not very difficult. Anyone with some mechanical knowledge and ordinary mechanical tools can do it fairly easily. Cost will depend on if you can find good used parts or if all new parts will be needed. If you can find a good donor manual car that you can pull the parts you need from the conversion could be done for as little as $1,000. With all new parts the total could easily go over $3,500. I hope this helps in your decision.

Thanks Hank, and everyone who provided infor here!

does anyone else have an opinion on the price of this car or what the rolling chassis would be worth all cleaned up?

What is the most dreaded part of restoring these cars?

This info is very helpful for a newbie like myself!

A 'project' is a 'project'. Nobody ever re-coupes (pun intended) their money unless they finish the project. Changing the car from point A to point B would likely mean the selling cost is the same, even though you spent $$ getting from point A to B.

An actual driveable car will always be worth a bit more. So I'd focus your energy (and $$) in that direction. And it has been proven many times that the more 'original' the car is, the more it will be worth. So if you are not in it for the long run, your money is probably better off sitiing in a 1% savings account. If you plan to keep the car for 20-30 years, you will likely (finally) be able to sell the car for more than you have into it.

Ususal rust areas are the rear shock towers (as viewed from the trunk), around the window edges, under the cowls, rear and front wheel wells, frame mounts, lower render areas, bottom of doors and jambs. These cars attract rust like nothing else!

The most dreaded part is spending three to five years doing 'something' to the car, then losing interest, then selling for a loss. The amount of sheet metal work required can be staggering. (see the other thread about the 'vert project that has been updated lately, or look at the resto of my '67 on my photobucket) My '67 was done by pros. I thought I knew a lot about bodywork, but that car would have been way out of my league. But I absolutely love it now and will likely hold onto it for 20-30 years. I just picked up a numbers matching '68-400 coupe for less than your number, so use those pictures to compare. I lucked out with the car still retaining the original drivetrain. It will be going a similar route as my '67 soon.

And if you cringe at the $65 PHS cost, I think you should re-think your investment already. You need to be able to hold $500 cash in your hand and then light it with a match. That's what it's going to feel like working on these cars. Others here can throw their 2 cent descriptions here too, but in the end, it has to be a labor of love for fgf's, not an investment.

$2500 sounds like an ok deal if you plan to fix it up yourself and keep it. You'll likely be into it for more money than you could get out of it if you sold it after you did all the work it needs. You'll probably find alot of rust issues at the base of the windshield/top of the cowl. You won't know how bad it is until you remove the front fenders. Nothing unusal really though as it's a typical problem area for these cars as is the rear window channel and the trunk floor. If you want a 4 speed car it'll cost you and your the only one that knows how much it's worth to you. Figure $3K for the change over. Worth it in a $2500 car?

I agree, get it checked out with PHS so you know what you have. It maybe better than you thought.
It's a labor of love not a money investment ... yet.

$2500 sounds fine. If you like the car and the doc that goes with it then work em down but be prepared to "pay the man".

Make doubly sure rockers, floor pan and rear frame rails are good. Everything else is a lot cheaper to do.

You only $15k to $25k to completion!

Great info everyone!
Thanks again
I'm not opposed to spending $65 on the PHS, just wasn't aware it had such useful info. Besides that, I will wait to see the car and inspect it before I get the PHS.

I should mention again that I do not care to make a completely original car that will be worth big bucks...I just want it to be a drivers car. Lots of power, solid brakes, comfortable interior and of course a nice paint job.
I think the car I can buy will be worth the 2500 if it has a solid frame and underbody (good starting point).

I would really like it to be manual so will investigate that some more.I know i will have to get the clutch hanger, a Z-bar for the clutch, the shift linkage and shifter, of course the trans and clutch, and hook up a tach (don't think it has one). Do i have to change the radiator? What else is involved in the conversion? If I do look for a donor car for just the trans, what other vehicles can I look for that will have a trans that will bolt up to the 400? again its a 67 GTO motor.

I appreciate all of the help so far and will definitely inspect the areas mentioned above for rust.

Thanks again, James

I converted mine to 4sp in 81 and now I'm going back to 3sp auto. I sold all my stuff but here is the list of stuff you need:


BW Super T-10 or Muncie 4sp tranny
Hurst shifter
Aluminum Bell housing
Bell housing cover plate
clutch fork & boot
pressure plate
flywheel
clutch
pilot & throw out bearings
frame linkage
brake & clutch pedals

Here is a link to some pics... 4sp Parts

the "typical" selling price vs asking is 15% less...so you should be able to get it for $2000-2300 at least...mho

You have all been a great help and I appreciate that.

What I have gathered here is that the specific areas that gather rust can be a real pain, the frame to body connection area must be solid, underbody needs to be solid and if it runs thats a big plus.
I am no mechanical but I know my way around the garage and am comfortable with most work except the body welding and sand blasting. I have a co-worker who does this on a regular basis so I'm covered there.

Any other tips or suggestions would be great.
Thanks everyone, James

The rarer the car, the more it will be worth in the long run.

Ok,
Have the info from ebay, please try the address below for the listing. It has ended but I am in touch with the owner. Again, I can get it for $2500.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280597246890&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Thanks all!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280597246890

Better link. $2000-$2200 would be a better price. Inner rear wheel wells look bad too. Those are hard to get at if not doing full quarters. Looks like everything needs going through. You'll end up spending a lot of money on this one. Your money might be better spent on a 14k finished car instead.

Thanks 68tpls400, you have been a big help so far.

After searching the For Sale threads here I'm seeing that a lot of unfinished projects are sold for pretty cheap ($6k to $10k ish). Maybe I should look for one that is not so far gone. I will wait for more pictures from the seller of this one to see if there is underbody/frame rust. If the pics check out I will go see it in person.

There aren't many firebirds for sale around NJ right now so I may just have to pass this one up and be patient. Man I hate waiting!

Looks like crap (to be expected) but WOW, look at the OPTIONS:

the options are as follows:

power antennae, rear window defroster, console, power steering, safety glass, restraints, lamp/luggage, radio/stereo, remote mirror, electric clock, power disc brakes, power windows, air conditioning, underhood lamp. car was originally sold in Bay Shore NY. in november of 1968. car was originally verdero green with gold interior. this information is directly off of the build sheet copy. most of these options are still together on the car, the antennae motor is still there, it looks like the power windows are there, clock, airconditioning is in the trunk. most of the parts for these options can be attained new with no problem.

I would buy it as long as the floor and rockers are solid.
Good 400 motor man! YS is a good block!

Year Engine HP Engine code Trans CR Cam Head Code BBL Carb No. Misc
1967 400 335 HP YS A 10.75 067 670 1-4 7037262 Block Casting # 9786133

Gus 68, the seller says the rockers are good and the frame/underbody is good too. He also said the floor pans are in good shape. I am waiting on pics of them before I drive out to PA to see the car. It sucks that the previous owner etched the rear window and quarter windows. The body doesnt look too bad except for the quarter panel, but he has skins for both sides.

My biggest issue with the car is that it is an auto and I really want a manual. I am trying to determine if this is worth converting or if I should hold out for a manual car in similar condition.

any thoughts on the conversion now that you've seen the car?

thanks,

Making a manual is easier than you think. The bolt holes are already there for you. I did mine when I was 18 with no internet or help from anyone. I just peeled the parts off a donor car.
Now you have the ability to buy everything and diagram etc. to boot!

Awesome...good to know.
You mentioned it is a good motor...is it different from the firebird 400s? I do not know much about this 67 gto 400 but would like to freshen it up and keep it in the car.

Also, but putting in your own 4sp you can decide what you want to put in. Stock, better than stock, racing grade. Heck the options are almost endless. You can spend $500-$5000, just depends what you want.

I have a bunch of the manual conversion parts that Gus68 posted if you end up needing them. I was going to do a manual conversion but decided not to.

The HP rating is higher for GTO's but same engine, just different engine code. I think a governor on the Firebird 4bbl carb reduces the HP rating.

I looked for a nice '68 400 'vert for 9.5 months before buying my red one. I passed up a dozen or more.

It gets easier after the first few. Then you get the bug and end up owning three or four of them. But by then you know what to look for.

Yeah, cars are a great hobby but can become overwhelming quickly. If I buy it I plan to take care of frame and underbody work first, then look into motor and trans. At that time I may either opt to convert while its all appart or put the auto back in just to drive it for a little. That is a long time away and no plans are set in stone, heck...I don't even have it yet!

Thanks again guys

Have a look at the attached doc on engine codes and you can see the GTO and the comparable Firebird engine specs.

Wow, 335hp stock is a nice number. Seller also says it has single plane intake, maybe solid cam, headers, and a holley dp 4 barrel. That would likely add a few horses if set up correctly right?

keep it auto, so your wife can drive it or move it, assuming you`re married...I went for automatic on the Bird for that reason , but shes never driven it in the 10 yrs we`ve had it...my Triumph is stick....

BTW the 69 automatic is a "his n hers" version ,with an automatic you can shift, just no clutch...

Ahh, ic. I'm not married and my gf can drive stick so I'm not too concerned about that.
Found another listing...what do you guys think about this?

68 firebird


1968 Firebird , 327 chevy motor,4 speed,410 posi
needs floor pans front and rear

not sure how the frame is but will check it out when the seller returns my call.

http://salem.craigslist.org/cto/2101925920.html

http://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/cto/2108195464.html I like this one

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/cto/2088500456.html

Some options out there.

So its a little out of my budget but there is a guy selling a 69 400 4speed in Jackson NJ for $8000. He is sending me pictures but claims to have matching numbers, mint interior, NO rust, and all primer. Story goes he bought it from someone who gave it a cheap black paint job and he stripped it to have it painted the original gold color. He has another that he is restoring and is selling this to get rid of on of the projects. He is sending me pictures so if any of you are interested I will forward them on.

BTW, the second car above is really nice, but its in Honolulu!!

We are always happy to opine (critique) any cars posted. We are here to help.

Yes, I noticed the Honolulu one, that's why I said I liked that one! We just discussed a "cheap black paint job" on another car here this past week. I wonder if it's the same car.

68tpls400, did you see the link i posted above the three that you posted? Its a 68 that looks like it was to be made a drag car. I am going to speak with the owner tomorrow for more details.
If it has a clean title, vin checks out, semi complete interior, no frame damage, and the drivetrain is functional...I may make an offer.

This may be a good car for me if its solid because I want a muscle car driver, not a show car...any thoughts on the drivetrain?

Can someone tell me what they think about the car in the pics in my photobucket? Its listed as a 67 automatic??

is this a 67 auto or a 68 manual?

I believe its a 68 (no vent windows and wrap around blinkers)
and maybe a manual (is that a stick shifter or an auto shifter?)

I do not have the vin for the car YET but am working on it.

Thanks all!

Sorry, I saw the Chebby engine and lost interest. But I agree based on your first post, that you might like that one with it being a manual trans. I am kinda partial to '68 verses '69, but I would always pick a Poncho powered car first. All of the cars in the 2-3k neighborhood seem to be in the same ballpark work wise. All of these cars would have been double the cost four years ago.

I am realizing that i like the look of the 68 better than the 69, but both are amazing. And I am taking the advice of the members here and looking for a car with a manual trans to avoid having to do the swap. I will keep looking and wait for the "right" one!

Just so i'm clear, the pics in my photobucket are of a manual car right?

Should this thread be moved to the "want" threads?