OK, have finally been suckered in to buying some headers off Ebay. I have two sets of pristine original manifolds, so going back won't be a problem if need be. If these don't work or fit I'll hang them on the garage wall with all the other crazy stuff I've gathered over the years. First link below is the pair I bought:
Now that they are in the mail, I need to figure out what issues I'll have. Big one I've seen on the FGF site is the oil filter problem. See pic below:
It looks to me as if my filter assembly IS off-set already, meaning its not screwed in directly to the block. Am I right, or is this a standard set-up and I'll need to buy an extension assembly to get the filter even further away from the block to let the headers slide in? Would appreciate any prior experience as well as gasket comments. Thanks in advance guys and girls! :p
'68 428 HO M3 Monster, 4-on-the-floor! Need I say more?
Nash: I think that everything will be fine. It had been so long ago when I looked at mine without headers (1977) I forgot what it looked like naked.
In 77, I put on a set of 3 runner Doug Thorley headers, and I paid about a buck, maybe a buck and a quarter, for them. For whatever it's worth, they looked just like the ones you bought, and, amazingly, they fit! and they went on without much problem.
You probally remember my gripe with the replacment set of 4 runner, Hooker Competition Plus that I bought in 1987--and I paid something like $380 for them. They fit like socks on a rooster because the cheapskaets made them for 67-81. In addition to them simply not fitting, I had an oil filter adapter interface problem. I don't recall what I ended up doing: I had an old and a new style adapeter, and there is a difference in the angles. I think that I had the old style on and have to change it to the new style, or vice versa. I was pretty ugly by the time I got the garbage--that wasn't made for my car--installed.
To back up to the Doug Thorley headers, I think that I simply weaseled them in, and I may have even dropped the right side in from the top, and I think that I installed the left from beneath the car.
All pontiacs have the 90 deg aluminum bracket for mounting the filter. (there's two types, FGF's point the filter straight down while the big pontiac brackets tilt the filter towards the engine) If you have interference problems with the headers, Ames has an extra adapter that goes between the block and the existing bracket that rotates the filter 45 deg towards the firewall. People with long branch manifolds have to use these. I say Ames because somebody here got a crazy looking adapter from somewhere else (Classic?) that didn't fit.
in my opinion,those headers will fit best hanging on the wall.unless you are planning on building a drag car,they are nothing but problems.you will have trouble with heat to your starter,and you will get proficient at replacing gaskets after you replace them a few times cause they don't hold up.i would rather be driving my bird over working on it..just my 2 cents.
Im a firm believer in you get what you pay for. Im with 69firebirdman. To me used headers are like used mufflers. The higher quality headers have thicker flanges and the face plate goes all the way across to all the runners. Right off they are only 3 tube. I would only buy the 4 tube headers. I bought the hooker four tube with the flowmaster 2 1/2" kit. It was around $600.00 and then I had to install the headers and weld up the complete exhaust kit. It took me 1 1/2 days to do it. The trick is put the car on four jack stands as high as you can get it. You have a sweet looking car and in my opinion you are taking a step back by putting on those headers. I did want to mention that the top turned out sweet. Great job!!! Joe
Depends on the make of header on weather or not they fit well. I have used Heddman Hedders in the past & really liked them. They are easy to install, clearance was good, only problem was I had to use the adapter to tilt the filter back & away from pipes. Use a 4-tube design for best performance. Ground clearance is the only drawback to using headers, but careful driving takes care of that.
Oh for gods sake now you guys have me all bummed out!! Okay, maybe they will be wall trophies for the garage after all!!!!
That being said, all I really want to do is have clean looking manifolds because the rest of the engine is looking good. Anyone plated the original manifolds or chromed them, painted them silver, whatever?? Those rusty exhaust manifolds are bugging me.
'68 428 HO M3 Monster, 4-on-the-floor! Need I say more?
The great thing about this site is you get all kinds of advice but you can ignore it if you want. We won't come over and make fun of your headers. An option for your rusty manifolds is to get them blasted then paint them with some good manifold paint.
You do what you want to. It's your car, your time, your money. The 3 into 1 headers will work for you. Years ago, one of my buddy's with a '69 Firebird ran them because the 4 tube were so hard to fit around power steering. He did not have any problems.
There are good header gaskets - give Jim Butler a call. He has them and is close to you. The big issue is the expansion and contraction of the flange. This loosens the header bolts and causes the gaskets to blow out. Use a quality header gasket and the new locking header bolts - not sure of the brand. They are advertised in all the hot rodding magazines.
Even if you stay with your stock exhaust manifolds, I don't think you will ever find a paint product that will never burn off. I am getting ready to paint my long branch manifolds with Bill Hirsch manifold paint. I will see how long it lasts.
You could always get your stock manifolds blasted and jet hot coated - big $'s though.
If you are up to installing the headers and modifying your exhaust, I say do it.
Have a good one. Let me know the next time you are coming up this way and you can stop by and see the progress on my engine rebuild.
it is real simple to go to the auto parts store and get a can of paint.use high temp paint and it takes 5 minutes to touch it up now and then.you can buy some parts from me with all the money you save.lol
Nash , the "most" you`ll get out of headers (in my opinion) is sound , not power , but they really sound good...make sure you use copper gasket not the typical cardboiard paper one that is 'norma'. , unless you want to replace them in about one month or so...
Hello,say away from headers.You won't gain as much as you think.Drag racing only.I just got out of the dyno room with my 400 pontiac 30 over with long branch RAR manifolds.428 hp and 508 torque. Not bad with out headers.Mike
If it were tested with headers, what would it be? Mustering up cheap bolt on ponies aint the easiset thing to do. If you increase flow, you increase horsepower.
Drag racing? You mean that I'm the only one on the boad that doesn't view my bird as a drag racing car? They sure the heck weren't designed for their supurb handeling and cornereing ability. Heck, I drag race my Cadillac, and I woop the snot out a lot Firebirds with it--old ones too. You ought to see the looks on their faces!
A side note, I have an 01 Cadillac STS (in stock clothing, it does 14.8 in the quarter) and the factory warrenty just exired--HOT DOG! Time to dink around with it some. The first thing I did was look at the airbox. And under it, there was an air tube, and the air tube causes massive restriction--at least a 25% reduction in cfm draw.
I read about altering the air vent, and some people said it was merely a noise maker. (What they were also doing was cutting a hole in the splash pan. Now that would be a noise maker, and for whatever other reasons they would hack a hold in the splash pan, I cannot say. I do know that it could spell disaster in the rain because you would have a straitht shot of splash into the airbox.) The thing is that the dyno says altering the air vent increases hp/tq however much.
Rather than hacking things up, I simply removed the air horn because even if I hacked it up, it still causes massive restriction where it goes in the air box. The low end gain was incredible, and it sounds the same because the area where the air horn sat still acts as a muffler. I was fortunate enough to have a torrential rain day, so I could water test the car, making sure that the air box didn't pick up water. What I cannot understand is why they would hack up the part, still having massive restriction at the air box's opening, rather than removing it completly. (I guess it's because they cannot think outside of the box and figure out a way to seal the bottom of the box so it doesn't draw engine compartment air. That modification was a no brainer--a big glob of dum-dum--duh!)
My point is that you get a lot of different opinions. To uncover the facts, you must do it and see what happens. As with me removing the air vent as a test, you can install the headers as a test. It's not like it's a car you just picked up last week. You know it, and you will know whether or not the headers will give you signifigant gain. If you're not happy, put the manifolds back on.
Unlike that garbage made by Hooker, those Doug Thorley header sat on the same gaskets from 77 to 87. A year or 2 before replacing them because they ruste out, one header developed a small pinhole leak, requiring a dab of high temperature silicone to shut it up.
If you do your research on Pontiac V8 modifications, you'll find that headers and cam are the best upgrades you can buy for the money. (Whenever I beat a stocker, the canned answer was that if it didn't have headers, it would have been a different story, and they were probally right.)
If you do your homework on velocity and flow, you'll see that headers will give you more power thorughout the full rpm range. When air moves through a tube, it has velocity. Behind that moving column of air, it pulls a vacume, meaning that it drags air along with it. Increased flow automatically eating more feul notwithstanding, that scavenging is free horsepower. As we all know, there isn't a lot of free lunches.
The only downside to your headers is the 3 runner deisgn. I have heard tell that on Pontiac engines it doesn't make that much differenc beteen 3 and 4 runner headers because of the way Pontiacs fire.
When I went from manifolds to the 3 runner design, there was a signifigant low end gain. Once the engine started out it its low end band, I really couldn't tell that much of a gain. As far as gas consumption at cruise speed, it too was a noticable drop, so that free horsepower ain't that free.
Even though the Hookers' design was a pos for the fgf, the 4 runners, contrary to the thing I heard about not making that much of a difference, gave a signifigant edge over the 3 runners.
The thing is that I was so unhappy with the Hookers fit, compared to Thorley's excellent fit, I kinda' wished that I had ol Doug still attached.
The bounus with the 3 runner is that lots of dim-wits looking under the hood will ask if it's a 6? I'd tell'em yes:)
Then we have this little thing called money. Unless it simply overflows over the top of your checking account, you gotta put a plug in it somewhere.
I think that you got out danm cheap. Of course, you get what you pay for, but it's my best guess that you're getting a lot of bang for your buck. The biggest issue is clearance by the p/s box if the car has p/s.
They look just like my Doug Thorley headers. But that's a hard call because just looking like and fitting like can be 2 different things. If they are like my Doug Thorley headers, they will fit perfectly, and the installation should be a breeze.
My opinon is to go for it because the pro-con header clubs, bantering back and forth, have been around before fgfs were made.
Some of us have been running headers for a long time and have good experiences with them. I've been running Hedman's for 8 years w/ minimum issues. I also coated mine with the POR-15 gray manifold paint 4 years ago and it hasn't burned off. As far as heat soak in the stock starter, it's a minor annoyance. The oil filter issue everyone is talking about, I use the NAPA 21042 smaller filter and have no clearance issues.
Headers will increase Hp and torque, but the increase will start at a slightly higher RPM, and below that, it will be slightly lower... at least according to several dyno sheets I have seen.
Torque on the pontiac is huge at a very low rpm, and stays pretty even. If you introduce anything to raise it, it starts producing torque later, but makes more. So it depends on if you want to squeal your tires with a 2.56 rear, or go fast in the quarter. Personally, I like low end torque, and am actually leaning to olds engines (sacril;edge, I know, but they are overlooked low end torque monsters, like the pontiac.) I personally would rather have 510Ft#@2400 than 550@3800. I like to squeal tire and make 60ft more than actually get to 100mph on the street to prove my point.
Nash, I for one love headers, and have never had problems with any of the headers I've put on any of my rides! So don't take it to heart! I really have never known how or why some seem to have problems with headers and some don't... But I never have, and would put quality headers on ever car I have... (ok.. I guess I only have 2 cars right now out of 6 that don't have headers yet! Lol...)
Personally, I have been able to feel hear and see (Longer, twin black racing stripes on the pavement) the performance increase once I changed to header especially on my Pontiacs! Even my curent bird, I have had the headers on and off 3 times, and have never even retightened the bolts... and have never had any problems (actually, just a slight leak right now, but I didn't feel I got the bolts that tight upon replacement as I was in a hurry to meet soem guys for a cruise)
And as for the fit of my super comps? They fit great, better than the headmans I had on my 421 in my 68 bird? I can even get these out and back in in about 1/2 an hour? So maybe they had a couple different designs? Not sure there?
Anyway, use the copper gaskets especially at the collector! And if you are worried about the bolts loosening, get the locking type... And coating... I was lucky to have found someone with a friend that did coating on the side (after hours) and got my Hooker Super Comps coated for $40!!! And I have the relay for the starter (Ask me more about it and I'll send you info) and I've never had any starter problems at all. Nor have I had filter problems... tight getting the filter in and out... but not impossible?
So, get the headers, use a high temp paint (ok) por-15 or manifold paint (Good) or get em coated (best) and get the copper gaskets, and the locking bolts... and just enjoy the sound and the slight performance gain, and just get out there and drive!
Well, you all know darn well I'm gonna at least TRY this pair once they show up this weekend, and as said before can always go back if need be. The only thing I don't know is how they will hook up to the collector point at the exhaust. The entire exhaust system is welded except where the manifolds meet the collector point. Looks to me based on the photos that the seller painted the headers prior to sale, but don't know if it was POR-15 or not. Can you tell?
'68 428 HO M3 Monster, 4-on-the-floor! Need I say more?
If you can do that well on the top. GREAT JOB. The headers will be a snap. ;)If you dont use the copper gaskets and go with the cardboard ones let them soak in water for a few minutes.
If it were me, I'd get the headers blasted (or wire brush them) and then paint em with the good stuff and I would know for sure they were done right.
If you don't coat em, you can get the header wrap which will also help with the heat from the exhaust.
I used this for about 2 years and it held up quite well... But I liked the clean look much better after I got them coated.
You will have to have the exhaust re worked to fit to the headers, and have the collector flanges welded to the exhaust to mate up to the header collectors. (stock manifolds have the pipes come up to meet them, where the headers come down and further back to meet the exhaust pipes) So this may be an issue for installation? You may have to cut the pipes to get the headers in, and or have a shop do the cutting/welding and maybe install the headers all at once? Unless you have access to a welder and can do all of it yourself?
Nash, if you really want to use manifolds, the way to go is to bite the bullet & get a set of long branch manifolds. They flow much better than stock manifolds & look cool to boot! Just a thought...
Too expensive now for their intended purpose, Steve!! Kinda like a nice painting that the seller wants 10K for cause its "soothing". I'll paint the picture myself and buy a bottle of JD and reach that same soothing level for about 25 bucks.
I've been watching you all talk up the long-branch angle for quite a while but folks are just asking too much for them!! Point me in the direction of a friendly FGFer that'll sell those manifolds for a reasonable price and I'll do it. I bid on the headers knowing I'd never even come near paying over 100 bucks for any set, due again to their intended purpose.
I've got the money for just about anything, but I'm darn picky about having the things I buy serve their purpose,... within reason.
'68 428 HO M3 Monster, 4-on-the-floor! Need I say more?
Last year, HiPerf Pontiac did an article on headers compared to RA manifolds and shorty headers. The shorty and RA manifolds were equal, long tube heades were worth about 20 hp over almost the entire RPM range. I will try to find the article, good read.
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