I've noticed a few Firebirds with the Pontiac symbol on the nose, but I'm not seeing a pattern. Was this simply an option for any car or did it come with certain builds?

Thank you.

Originally one of the markers of a real "400" option car.

Today, one of the ways to spot a fake 400 model or somebody came across a 400 bumper (with the factory holes) or somebody simply put one on a non-400 bumper.

There are also those few real 400 cars with them.

Was that the only difference in the bumpers (the factory holes) of a non 400 and a 400 car?

Sorry to be daft, but does the line "There are also those few real 400 cars with them" mean few are left or that not every 400 had the emblem on the bumper?

Yes, that was the only difference for the front and rear bumpers. The holes are there only for the emblem.

I think his comment was more along the lines that there are many, many cars being passed off as 400 cars that people don't add this detail to them. I have a real 1968 "400" car, as in my PHS documents show that it came from the factory with option 345, which was the 400 engine. It was in an accident and had a replacement front bumper which did not have the emblem. I was able to locate a factory bumper from another member here with the appropriate holes for the emblem and will go back to sporting the emblem when finished. The holes could just be drilled in normal bumper.

The holes in an original 400 bumper are not just drilled, but punched before chroming, and the stamping has a recessed area around the studs to allow for the slight swell where the studs are molded to the emblem.

Thanks wovenweb (and salmon38). I've seen many 400's for sale during my search and only like 2 with the emblem on the bumper.

Now along these lines, did all 400s have the "400" emblem on the trunk lid?

Yes.

Thanks for the detail, does this mean that they went through a separate stamping process compared to the non-400 bumpers?

I believe so, as you cannot reproduce with the same degree of accuracy at home. I will try to get out to the shed tomorrow and snap a couple of pics.

Yes, I was attempting a joke. Another often overlooked detail on real 400 cars (and often missing from fakes) are the 2 chrome "hockey stick" bars that run horizontally across the twin front grills.

Grills with these bars are now being reproduced along with the bars separately so that non-400 grills can be modified.

Real 400 cars for '67 have a code on the engine compartment data plate that's tough to fake. It's an "F" in code group #3. See the FAQ's on this site.

Bottom line, if you are serious about purchasing a car - get the original factory documents from Pontiac Historical Society.

@solmon38 would you happen to have a picture of the hockey sticks? I've gone looking for front angle pictures of 400 bumpers and I'm not finding this detail.

I'm not salmon38 nor do I play him on TV...but this is straight from the Ames catalog:

Here's a 1967 that the dealer says is a 400. The nose emblem is correct, but it is missing the hockey sticks...

As I have yet to remount my bumper emblem, I tried taking photos of my bare bumper holes last night and I could not get them to come out.

My NOS grills with the sticks are packed away someplace as I am waiting for a paint job.

But since it is a 1967, you can check the body tag...



It has the 3f code which for 1967 indicated the 400 engine. I love the 1967 body tags because they tell most of the story.

So, at some point at least some of this stuff up front was replaced. And I'm suspicious of the body tag because the one on my '68 was black. So, to tell if it is a real 400, there are a few more things to check on this one. Others here who are much more experienced could probably get to the answer quicker than I.

This is excatly why you are going to want or see a set of PHS documents BEFORE you seal the deal. It's like trying to find a real Z-28

Here's a 1968 with the hockey sticks but missing the nose emblem, this car was recently posted about on these boards.

This is from a car with everything correct on the front end of the car...but then they went and did this:

I for one have one of those 400s that started out life as a 350....I elected not to put the arrowhead on the front bumper , for two reasons

not trying the 'clone' my car to say it always was a 400

also , personally I prefer the cleaner look w/o it.


as far as the hockey sticks missing on a car with correct bumper...it does not mean its a fake , necessarily...you need the pHS...the car could have had the grills replaced for some reason, accident or such...
PHS is THE way to jusdge a car by

I'm going through this dilemma, how far to go in creating something different than origianl...



Agreed on all points

Here's the hockey sticks and the bumper emblem... this is a clone but correct for a 400 car.

The repro front bumpers for the 1969's do not have the holes for the emblem. Since that bumper was released over 10 years ago, hundreds and hundreds of Firebirds (and especially Trans Am's) were restored by shops that didn't know about the nose emblem. And of course another thousand or so 400 or Trans Am clones were created where the restorer didn't know about little details like this.

There are a few factory photos showing a 1969 Trans Am without the arrowhead emblem, but those are of a pre-production car. ALL the 400 cars and Trans Am's had the arrowhead on the nose.

Here's a 69 bumper with the factory holes.

If a non-400 bumper is drilled for the nose emblem will the emblem fit correctly? I noticed in previous discussion that the original 400 bumpers were stamped with a recess for the emblem, not just drilled.

You'll need to drill the holes then countersink with a larger bit creating the recess. Try starting with a small bit (pilot hole) from the back side of the bumper, go all the way through. On the front side use a large bit (like 3/8") to countersink, just get half way through the bumper and stop. Now drill your final size bolt holes (think they were 1/4").

The 9 is a different puppy, and they don't repro the emblem, so you have to make the 7/8 fit. I have an early repro emblem that I bought in '87. It fits better than other emblems I have seen on other 9's, but it took some reshaping of the backside to get a reasonable fit.

All 9's have punched bumpers, but all 9's don't have chrome rings in the grills. Way back long before the the internet was invented, I recall reading that they ran out of chrome rings during production, the reason none were available as replacment parts.



That or they simply forgot to install them. I know that people cannot stand to think that such a thing happened to such a finely crafterd automobile, but leaving things off, and installing things upside down was te way they did it back then.

I thought I heard the chrome grill trim rings were 400s only

Yes, the chrome trim around the grilles were used on ALL 1969 Firebird 400 cars. The chrome trim was not used on the standard Firebird model or the Trans Am, and the Trans Am was the only version that used blacked-out grilles.

The arrowhead on the bumper was used on all Firebird 400 and Trans Am's. The only exceptions to that rule were a few pre-production cars. Unfortunately, some of those cars were handed to auto magazines for road tests, which led to confusion as to which cars had the arrowhead, chrome grille trim, etc.

I am a bit concerned about my final product. I drilled the holes in the bumper before sending to be rechromed. The holes looked to match another bumper I had for reference. This could be a big problem, will just have to wait and see when I get it back.