I just let a one owner convertible go by me in favor of another convertible I have found. I had PHS run the VIN number and it shows as a 2 door coup, not a convertible!!!
I also have a picture of the title, it also shows it as a 2 door coup. Is ther another area I can find a vin or what can I do to correct this

Thanks
Bernie

no idea, sounds like that car has been "fixed" at some point....I doubt the factory mis VIN`ed it.

Could be stolen.

If I remember correctly, you should be able to see a vin stamped into the painted black cowl sheet metal if you look through the passenger side vents between the hood and windshield. Use a flashlight.

Should be right about here:



Edit: It is possible it may be just under the painted louvered cowl.

There is also a VIN stamped in the metal below the heater opening.

Sounds like a trip to the local Police Dept. is in order...

Does the data tag look like it's been messed with? Have you triple checked the VIN number with the plate on the car?

Did you buy the car?

There is definitely a stamp by the heater core opening. It does sound like a bigger problem exists. I wonder if somebody had gotten lazy and just used a VIN from a coupe instead of a convertible, not that doing that would have been legal.

The car is a 1969

makes no diffenece what year...conv numbers are always the same, coupe numbers also...sounds like someone swapped VIN tag , and wasnt aware of , or didnt care, of the difference...when it got titled the people there didnt know the difference....like I said before ,the car sounds like it was "fixed"...did you buy it ,is it yours now?

Can he can take legal action against the seller if he did buy it?

If the car is stolen, then 'recovered', I believe ownership goes to the Owner who lost the car, or to their insurance company if they paid out on the car. New buyers will lose their money. Legal action could be brought against the seller, but sometimes the vehicles have been sold multiple times.

Sounds like a Police issue from here. Banshee, fill us in.

Thanks for all the help guys, there is definaly an issue, I just need to find out what it is, Here is the vin number
223379N119494 and I have seen a picture of it on the title

There is also a VIN stamped in the metal below the heater opening

Inside or outside of the vehicle?

Did you buy the car?

I am in the process of buying it. i just walked away from a one owner manual top for this car, I love what I have seen so far until I ran the VIN. The people that own it have had it a little while and the title I saw goes back to 2005 and it even shows it as a coupe. They are going to pull the cowling off the front as he could see nothing with a flashlight looking through the vents.

Ok...

I know I sound like a Prima Donna.

Could you please start over in one post.

What does the VIN on cowl read? What does PHS state, what does title state?

If you want help, in effect, I am going to need more than little bits and pieces of information.

I am sorry, but from reading this, and being in law enforcement for the past 24 years, something isn't jiving.

So please, explain everything completely in one post. You found a 69 vert, did you buy or not? What does the title read? Date of issue, owner on title same as seller? Did you check the VIN to the title? did you check the VIN to PHS? What is the VIN (actual) that is on car versus VIN on title and PHS? Does the rivets appear to be tampered with? Cowl tag rivets? what does the cowl tag read? Is the block in car? Original? what does that VIN read if seller touts original?

Does the cowl section and dash appear to be original? any evidence or repair?

I deal with this all the time working commercial auto theft.

If you want a solid reasonable answer, you are going to have to do better with the details.

I would also venture that this is a mid October to November build.

It should be there. Whether yours is visible or just covered is probably a variable from the hand stamp.

I just checked and mine is visible through the louvers. hard to take a photo, but you can clearly see the U, 9,6 and 2

68 though.

Banshee, I am going to hire you for for my advice on any auto purchases in my future. It is great to have such a resource on this site.

That is a sure sign of some malfeasance.

I try.

Just wished the OP would post concrete information for us to work with.

Not to be a jerk, and I may be off base, but this sounds like a phishing expedition.

Banshee,
Let me go over this for you how you have asked to have it

Could you please start over in one post.

What does the VIN on cowl read? What does PHS state, what does title state?

The normal spot you find the VIN Number in shows a VIN of 69223379N119494
According to PHS that Number is for a 2 door Coup (IF I can get your E mail I will send you the PHS Report)
I have a partial picture of the title they sent me that clearly shows that same VIN number and also states on the VIN it is a coup[/color]If you want help, in effect,

I am going to need more than little bits and pieces of information.

I am sorry, but from reading this, and being in law enforcement for the past 24 years, something isn't jiving.

I know it is not Jiving that is the reason for this post
The pictures of the car are of a convertible., again give me your e mail and I will send you the pictures as well


So please, explain everything completely in one post. You found a 69 vert, did you buy or not? What does the title read? Date of issue, owner on title same as seller? Did you check the VIN to the title? did you check the VIN to PHS? What is the VIN (actual) that is on car versus VIN on title and PHS? Does the rivets appear to be tampered with? Cowl tag rivets? what does the cowl tag read? Is the block in car? Original? what does that VIN read if seller touts original?

I was about to send a deposit for the car when I found all of this out. I have not yet seen the car as it is out of state. The title picture shows issue in 2005 and again the Title matches the VIN that was given to me and PHS has that number but shows it as a coup. I really had wanted this car as it fit my budget and i backed out of another unit that had a manual roof vs a power roof and it is now gone


Does the cowl section and dash appear to be original? any evidence or repair?

Again have not seen it in person

I deal with this all the time working commercial auto theft.

If you want a solid reasonable answer, you are going to have to do better with the details.

I appreciate the help. They are going to look under the vents for a number this week end. They seem as concerned as I am, I just dont see why no one has missed the fact that the title says coup. My e mail is bmock@pft-alexander.com my cell is 562-884-0788. I tried to highlight my answers in a different color but it would not let me do it.

Thanks
Bernie

We have not missed the fact that the VIN is that of a coupe and it's a vert.

I have not missed that either.

The simplist answer here usually is right. The car is a retag or there was an error in recording the VIN at the Secretary of State.

An NLETS check of both VIN's will help clarify what exists.

I agree on what you are saying and i have a fear factor in purchasing this and I am trying to get them to locat the other vin which I assume the car might have. I want to protect myself if purchasing it.
Again I would gladly shre the PHS report with you it is very basic calling it a 350 2 barrel.
If you give me your e mail I will send that and the pictures. my e mail again is bmock@pft-alexander.com
I sincerely appreciate the help and I want to make sure that myself or someone else will not suffer if the car is purchased
Thanks

WHAT DOES THE VIN ON THE DASH READ? you have told us what the VIN on the title reads and what the PHS reads, what is the VIN on the dash?

The VIN on the title does NOT match the VIN on the dash? It does NOT matter what the other hidden VIN reads.

QUIT reading into the PHS and the "hidden VIN". This is a 350 2 barrel vert. Not a RA car.

What matters is the dash VIN and the VIN on the title...plain and simple.

It DOES NOT matter what the PHS states.

The vehicle title is an official state document, the VIN is a Federally mandated identifier. PHS doesn't mean a [censored] thing...period.

Why belabor this? The hidden VIN matters ZERO. Even if the hidden VIN matched the title, you still have another VIN that is in plain view that does NOT match, or does it?

Either there is an error on the title or this car is a retag.

What does the cowl tag read?

I don't need the PHS because on it's face, the PHS has zero credibility between a VIN attached to a car and a certificate of title from a state of issuance.

From a picture you have seen of the title, you have provided 2 VIN's 223379N119494 and 69223379N119494. Which is it?

You see...The title of a vehicle is the ultimate authority. Unless the title is a forgery, and why should it be? Becuase if one wanted to forge a document, it would at least match the VIN on the car. So you can rule the title being a forgery.

2. The title contains an error.

Answer me a few questions....What does the VIN on the dash read? Have you seen a picture of the VIN trough the windshield? If not, why not? How far is car from you?

Banshee,
It is a littl late so when i was giving you thi vin I did not mean to put the 69 infront of it
Again I dont know how to make it any clearer to you that I have not personally seen the car!! I am going by what the seller has told me.
Below is a cut and paste of an e mail from the seller;

The plate was difficult to get a good picture of.
I also tried to read the numbers: It is hard to tell for sure what the numbers are.
6922337 9N114 94
11-A 53-53

VIN 223379N119494

I would paste a copy of the title if I knew how I have never posted a picture here before

Again I Have NOT seen the car in person

All I need to know is if I do buy this can there be any reprocussions. ALso can the title be corrected to reflect that it is a convertible and how hard would that be
Thanks again

If the seller cannot send you a clear picture of the vin plate and the hidden vin, walk away.

The only other option would be to find someone in the area that you can trust to look at it. If you don't have friends or relatives there, you could try posting the city and see if one of the local members on here would be willing to take a look. At least then you can get a full report on the condition of the car.

I am actually going to that area but not for another 2 weeks. I do have family there but they would not know what they are looking at

Sounds like 'trouble' to me...its a re tag of some kind....if it was me , I`d buy another car...but current owner needs this info as well as he has been 'had' evidently....

How long has the current owner had this car?

The picture I have of the title is of the upper left quarter with the vin and a few other details. It says 2005 as the date of issue. I assume they have owned it since then. IF anyone wants to see that or the PHS report just send me your e mail address and I will gladly share. My e mail is
bmock@pft-alexander.com

Also I do have a picture of the VIN in the window which does match the title

All the evidence you have presented stongly suggests hanky-panky in this car's past.

I would DEMAND to have the cowl pulled to see the hidden VIN or go see the car personally before putting down a nickle.

Posting photos of the Data Plate and dash VIN might be helpful to see if the rivets show signs of tampering.

I am just curious, but is there something about this car that makes it worth this headache? I would run as far as I could from this car. Even if you are able to figure out the heart of the problem you would have to explain to a potential buyer what you are trying to figure out now. I am not trying to rain on your parade, but don't want to see you get stuck in a bad situation if you did end up buying it.

On a slightly different note, reductio ad absurdum(reduced to the point of the absurd), then a car is really defined by its cowl panel and the hidden VIN there? Couldn't that also be changed out for a reproduction one? Or by using an intact cowl found in a scrapyard?

Anything is possible, which is why I would be weary of this car.

It depends on the definition of "defined".

From a titling/registration view, if the VIN tag has not been tampered with and matches the title, the car is legal. In a case like this, where the body style does not match what is on the title, the two hidden VINs, engine VIN, and drivetrain VIN would be subject to inspection if anyone were to call into question the validity of the car.

If the entire cowl and firewall including VIN, cowl tag, and hidden VINs were cut from a car and grafted into another, there is an excellent chance that no one would be able to tell if the workmanship was good and the car was in paint or primer. It's only in the extremely rare cars that this level of inspection is done on a regular basis. A repro cowl would have no numbers so they could be restamped as anything. I've seen cars with the numbers filled, and I definitely consider that suspicious.

It has not been possible to purchase parts of a car containing the VIN tag legally for many years. Not to say that it cannot be done, as it certainly can if you deal with junkyards that do not comply with scrap laws or with private parties.

One of the easiest ways to spot a retagged car is by the mismatches from the original build. On Mopars, it was easier as the fender tags listed all the options and included the VIN. Our PHS reports take the place of the tags. If your report shows the car had disc brakes and the car has drum brakes, chances are there is something wrong as no one would downgrade to drums. Same with four speed to auto, convertible power top to manual (not likely someone would remove all vestiges of power top), power steering or brakes to manual. It's worth questioning such changes and inspecting the evidence.

I would definately have some one that knows what they are looking at take a peek at the car for you before you drop any dough on it. In the end it will be worth it even if it cost you a couple of bucks. There is somebody on this list just about everwhere and most are good enough to take some decent pics for you and give you a good feel for the sellers honesty. It probably will turn out that the current seller was led astray when they purchased it.

I will be going there in 2 weeks to see it, other than that it is in Wisconsin
Thanks
Bernie

Is this the black 'vert from WI?

Where in Wisconsin?