Is this it?

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/2511449982.html

I just heard Banshee's head explode

Ha Bob....no comment!

VIN matches title. where's the problem?

Not Black, Red in Madison or some where near by

VIN does not match what the car really is and title says its a coupe

The VIN on the title matches the VIN on the car. End of story. Legally (yes, legally) this is a non-issue.

What the car really is is a car that is a 1969 Firebird. What this car is can aptly be considered a titling error.

How can this be you ask?

Human error.

I went to title and plate my Harley. When I got the registration and title, you wanna know what it read?

2006 Honda with the correct Harley VIN. The title entry format on the computer is a drop down box. What is next to Harley on the list? Yep, you guess it! HONDA!

We can suppose all we want, but until you have clear concise pics of the cowl, verification of the hidden VIN or have inquired with the local law about this issue. The other issue is that of the title and I ask this. Why...why would anyone retag a VIN from a coupe to a vert....the most glaringly obvious difference and try to pass this off? It makes NO sense.

Have you asked the sellers why there is a problem with the difference between the coupe and vert? Mind you I said the problem with the model and not the VIN...because right now there is no issue with the VIN.

My head hurts...where is the Tylenol?

How do you know that the VIN does not match what the car is?

What is a chair? Why is the color blue called blue? Who decided what blue was? Why do chairs exist?

Does a tree make a noise when nobody is there to hear it fall?

Agian Guys, the fear of having an issue with the title when I bring it into CALIFORNIA. If they inspect it or I get pulled over here I could have an issue (says a Highway Patrol friend of mine)I do have some pictures of the VIN, again I do not know how to post pictures here so if anyone wants to see it I will send via e mail, I just need an e mail address.
I do not beleive they have altered anything on the car. I assume someone pulled a front clip from a coup out of a junkyard and put it on a wrecked convertible. In California that car would get a what is called a salvage title and would be verified.

Also as someone else has pointed out if it has been salvaged and the front sheet metal wherre the cowl is has been replaced there will be no vin (They claim they cannot find a number)

As A Firebird Lover it is also going to be difficult if down the road I go to sell it to another Firebird lover they too will probably run it through PHS and ask the same question.

The guy is checking with the DMV to see about getting it changed and it looks like it can be doen but apparently the true identity of this car will never be fully know.

The VIN on the car truly is for a coupe. The seller does not know why the error on the title, actually based on the VIN there is no error as the VIN is for a coupe.

Let's say I bring this into California, They inspect the vehicle at the DMV and the title says coupe and it is clearly not a coupe. They check the VIN identifier and it shows them that it should be a coupe but it is not. Then they will ask questions I cannot answer and who knows, they might impound the car until they get answers. We have huge issues here with collectible cars, grey cars and cars that go into Mexico but come back as something different.

And those of you that say just walk away, you may be right, but this car has some of the things I really want on it. Paint is fairly fresh, interior is fresh, In Dash Tach, Power top. It is something I can drive around for a while without having to put major dollars into it. I already do have a numbers matching 69 That I am working on but will not be done for another year or so and it is not a convertible.

I owned 2 69's in my younger years but never a convertible and the wife has finally green lighted me on this

Thanks all for the response and the help!!!

I hate to point this out, but...

NO DMV is going to care about ANYTHING in the VIN number except for the actual serial number digits at the end of the VIN. They JUST look at the VIN to make sure it matches up with the paperwork

No VIN clerk is going to go to some VIN decoder someplace to figure out that, "Hey, this should be a coupe and it's a vert."

Same deal with Fords where the VIN contains a letter code for the engine in the car. If the DMV clerks around the US were running VIN decoders for all those old classic Fords out there - hobbyists would be in a world of hurt. NO DMV clerk is going to look at a Ford VIN and then go out and refuse to title the car because the VIN say there should be a straight 6 in the car and there is a 351 Cleveland in there now.

As long as the Title says it's a convertible and that matches the car - you are golden.

Hate to bring this up, but could the VIN have impact on insurance? Would they care if coupe or vert?

If so, a coupe should only be to your benefit....

as far as Titles go my buddy who deals with used cars recently had a problem with a mistitled car...the clerk had put the customers name instead of Volvo....that car was titled as the owner....lol

Vin on title = vin on dash, partial vin on cowl, partial vin below heater motor

Name on tile matches name on bill of sale and one piece of id

Done deal!

The rest is forum fodder

IMO

Salmon,
This is California, DMV here sucks

I know. I was born and raised in So Cal. My family is still there.

On Another note: I did find another convertible the vin and title match what it is, one owner. but manual top, 4 speed, even the original shift knob! I faxed in the VIN on this one and wouldn't you know it, PHS has no records on it! LOL.

Strike two! One more and you're out!

I'm not sure how the classic car companies deal with this in their rating programs, for those of us in the more standard world we don't have data pre-'81 on VINs so a non-issue. But then, we don't really want this type of car any way. For what I do, our data is very good on cars straight from the factory. The older a car gets, the less likely it will be similar to what came out of the factory.

Good question on the insurance, I am going to check with our provider

The owners of the vehicle have stated that the DMV will change the Tittle 2 read convertible, takes 8 weeks

If you correctly posted the VIN 223379xxxxxxx then the VIN is for a coupe. Even if the title says convertible, the VIN says otherwise. What did the PHS return?

Yellowbird just sent you an e mail with a copy of the PHS Documentation. Shows it as a coupe

I finally got a picture of under the cowl and here is what it appears to have

I think the number is 9n113167 or the last digit could be a 1. It was covered under plenty of over spray.

Should it have the first portion of the VIN as well
I can send a pic to anyone interested

3167 (or 3161) verses 9494.

Looks like you have a body swap.

Run as fast as you can.

I am hoping that this is enogh of a number to run a LIEN report suggested by Banshee. Also sent a note to Jim @ PHS to see if it is enough of a number for PHS to run it as well.

If anyone can tell me who to contact to have them run this LIEN report please let me know

Thanks

Also the guy who has it never changed over the registration from the previuos owners. He has had it for 2 years

Thanks

I think you might be missing the implications because the hidden VIN info did not stop you in your tracks. Like it should of.

You pointed out that you need to deal with the tough CA DMV agents.

There is a good chance that if you purchase this car, the authorities will confiscate it as stolen property or VIN tampering. You would be out your $$$ and the car.


Provides for a good reason WHY the previous owner decided not to title the car??????

Point taken

A good chance? Really? Do we know if anything has been reported stolen here? 40 years is alot of time for all kinds of stuff to happen, including but certainly not limited to theft, but most likely rust, it is a 40 yo 'vert.

Good luck withe lien report. I tried everywhere but no one has a program that matches our smaller VIN no.

If you know of one let me know.

Best bet is the state the car was registered in has titles that are manditory. If the has. A lien the title goes to lien holder until lien paid out.

I could run it at work, but considering the implications of how tough the California DMV is, and what I already stated (VIN tampering) the LEIN check is a moot point.

Even if LEIN shows either and both VIN's are clear, this does not preclude the fact there is VIN tampering. Knowingly posessing a car with a tampered VIN is a felony in most states.

As I mentioned before, as well, many others...simply put...


Run.

LEIN is for law enforcement only.

Thanks Banshee and all of the others, I am going to run it through PHS just to see what comed back with this other vin for the heck of it

223679N followed by the last six numerical digits if pulling a PHS. Looks like 113189 to me but a pencil rubbing would be more effective than a photo.

I second that on the California DMV. Any vehicle with a non-matching engine VIN is "tampered" with under the law. Better have good receipts...but the whole body? That is a violation of federal law to swap that.

Banshee,
I should have something from PHS in the morning, I will let you know what comes up
Thanks
Bernie

PHS Came back as 223679N113161 Convertible 69 Firebird.

Banshee, Is there any way you can run one of the LEIN reports? If there is an issue we will be stopping someone from getting hurt maybe further down the road wheter I buy or not. As someone stated it is VIN tampering and in California that is an issue.

Anyone who wants a copy of the PHS report please send me an e mail address and I will send it

Thanks
Bernie

Again....for the 8th time, the PHS is irrelevant.

Issue is that the VIN's dont match. End of story.

If you buy the car as-is, and dont have the local PD run BOTH VIN's prior to purchase, you are at risk of losing the car and money with no recourse.

Contact your local PD. They may be willing to run the number. If it does not come back clear, expect questions and have ad in hand.

I will for sure contact them

Even if all goes well with the authorities and no one really cares that you have a coupe VIN on a ragtop car, expect to sell the car at a deep discount next time because those buyers will have the same big doubts and big questions. It seems pretty clear that someone swapped over coupe tags onto a vert body at some point in the past 40+ years. I bet no one cares because I am sure that this is not the first time it happened and finding out who did it is near impossible. If your car gets seized you may get it back with a non transferable title too-However the PEDIGREE of the car is seriously violated. If you are buying a six thousand dollar driver and don't give a crap about resale then you will probably be OK. If you don't feel defrauded then there won't be a lawsuit either. Plan on disclosing what you know when you sell the car someday too or someone may want to sue you when they find out.

I would just say that the rebodying tricks of days gone by certainly impact the value of the car, so bear it in mind.

You would think the hillbillies would of at least found vert tags! Rednecks!

How did this ever end up?