Planning out my motor build for one of my 69's, nothing exotic but I want a ground pounding, tire burning, frame twisting brute.
I have a few options, currently I have three sets of heads-#13,#16 or #62 and for blocks I have both 400 and 455, could either do a 400 stroker or a 455 stroker since the kits run around $1900, thinking about a RA IV cam grind, Not worried about compression I can buy gas in 50 gallon drums in alot higher octain than at the pumps. I have both a TH400 and a muncie M-20 and currently a factory posi unit that I know I will have to change. Im not worried about highway driving I live in the sticks and will only drive it a few miles a week anyway.
If you had these choices which would be the path most of you would go?

You didn't provide a budget. As you know it makes all the difference. I would stay away from the strokers. I was reading a post the other day on PY about how crank suppliers are stopping production on them. Availability of replacement parts is always a consideration(not that you should have to replace a new crank anytime soon but you never know).
If it were me I would build the 455 strong and put some KRE heads on it. Doesn't have to be too over the top to put you into the low 11s and maybe the 10s. 10s will pull the wheels of the ground. That should be enough for a weekend cruiser.

IMHO, depends on how good the parts in stock are along with budget.
How much power vs how much rpm you will'n to go?
If have the $, go stroker kit from Ace with the best block in inventory.
Same with the 13 or 62 heads.
Aftermarket heads same thing. Unless the ones you have need lots of work.
Sell'm to # matching guys to pay for aftermarkets.
E-hds for round port hdrs(better), or kre d-ports(built be someone else).

More later...

I vote for the old faithfull cam and KRE 290 cfm heads.

Just saw your post headed to Butlers.
They build all the power you could want or need.
Make a deal!

To build up any of those Iron heads for high HP in a stroker, have them ported, spring pockets milled for a hydraulic roller, new springs, new valves and hardware, you'll have $1500 in them and need severely dished pistons to boot or end up over 12:1 with Iron heads.
But go with some 84 cc E or KRE heads, $2500 off the shelf, some 16 cc dished forged 495 Pistons, a 4.5 crank in the 455 block and you'll be able to twist that frame, well, assuming it had one.
Subframe connectors and a 9" would be my advise.


Just the engine parts are around 5 grand for a build like that. 700 hp 495 w/ 10:1 compression. Pump gas friendly.

I'd budget 7 grand for the entire build, rear not included.
Go with the T400 tranny, built. The M-21 would shatter.

From what I'm hearing it's the 3" main 4.0 x 4.21 stroke cranks that are in question.

YA, frame connectors are a must!

That's right. I didn't remember the whole gist of the post about stroker cranks. They were talking about the 3"ers.

Going to use a set of heads I have, $5k -$7k more than likely in motor when I'm done if more I'll do it in stages,I picked up a 70 ys block today 400, I am going to ask Butler about the stroker, they must not have a problem with it because they bought several 389 blocks from me to stroke, I want a stock appearing motor no E-heads

My advice is A call Butler Performance and have them set you up or B get a copy of Jim Hand's book, Building Pontiac engines. I had the the book and It shows you step by step what to use. The book really streses the use of stock parts and reliable combo's. In the back of the book is several engine combo's from well know engine builder with considerations for gas, rpm's and so on.
Good Luck.

Stroker motor are over rated..... Yes it is nice to say I have one. But why? Build your 400 or 455. Do what needs done. If parts need to be replaced then replace it. If you don't mind the price of race fuel put which heads you already have on the motor. Make sure your valve springs can handle the cam you want. I went with a Crower cam that eats the tires off my car. It's a 428 30over with KB forged pistons, 62 heads with Ferrara stainless valves,comp cams triple valve springs, Harland sharp 1.5 roller rockers, had crank turned 10/10, rods reconditioned, hot tanked, magged, new bearings,1968 428 quadrajet, dougs headers backed with a richmond super t10. It's the baddest motor I have ever owned period.... I have owned some fast cars too. Or maybe I am getting old...

I think I will keep a 455 just in case, I have 3 400 motors to experiment with at some point. I dont mind the extra for race fuel unless I start to do alot of driving. Im planning on taking some of my junk heads and practicing some porting, I've looked through Jim Hands book and am going to try it, worst case is I mess up some worthless heads

You're in for some education J. You're going to find out quick why they get so much for port work. It's one of the worst operations I've ever done to an engine. I understand wanting to try something that you've never done before and I definately wouldn't try to talk you out of it. Experimenting something new is the heart of hot rodding. Spending the money to have someone port iron heads only makes sense if you want to keep the stock look for some reason. The advanages of alum heads far out weigh the cost of iron head port work. Even after you're done you won't know if you did anything right unless you get them on a flow bench. Imagine after all that work, and the doctor bills for getting metal flakes out of your eyes, finding out they flow the same or worse than when you started. That's another thing, you won't know unless you get them flowed before you start grinding. I don't want to discourage you though. I say go for it.

Also wanted to mention E 85 gas. If it is plentifull in your area. A 455 with small chamber heads would do the trick.

Vote for calling Butler FIRST. Tell him what you want and how much you wanna spend. 400 Stroker with a 400 trans

I would build the 455, use good parts & it should do what you want. Calling Butler would be a good idea as well, get an idea about what your plans performance-wise are, gear ratio, trans, etc. You can build a brute force 455 for next to nothing, I would steer clear of the stroker set-ups, not sold on them. For less thamn 5K you can be very happy with the results, the key is to get quality machine work done, find someone who know Pontiacs well.


STeve

I talked with David Butler when I was there, working out something with him to do a short block for me. They have a nice setup there anyone that is in the area should stop in and talk with him. Its not a large shop but it is a small family owned business, much different than I expected but I will be calling them for all parts that I need and I will be using them for my engine work. Me and my son are wearing our butler hats we got proudly.
I got to see several engines in the process of being assembled, got my first look at the aluminum aftermarket blocks, it was like being in Pontiac heaven

Some might consider the stockpile of blocks, heads etc. that you helped distribute Pontiac Heaven.

Glad you enjoyed the Butler's shop, I haven't been there yet but they do have my credit card on file.

Dam# if I knew that I could have had an early christmas

So Jerry, You gonna go with a 400 or 455 block? Just curiuos I have done business with the Butlers with some parts for my 455. I talked with Jim Butler talked for a bit about driving trucks... That is my profession, he drove truck for a while also. Very cool to talk him about something other than engines.

I'd use a th350 rather than the th400, but that's just me, and if you like using substandard parts, go ahead and waste all the hp you are buying. If you use the th400, perhaps we could kick it off against my 300k mile 400 with a clatter cam?

Been reading this post since you started it Jerry. Focusing on post #1 I would build a stout 400 short block, massively ported heads, high compression like 11:1, big nasty cam, keep the M20 and run low gears. It will just be a screamer that will hardly ever get traction and you can hear it coming. Not for much highway use and no a/c, lol.
I would be most attentive to the head porting. I like one of the above post about it, just pay to have it done, its the one thing worth not doing yourself, you'll be disappointed compared to what you could get out of it. Nothing wrong with butler for that but I just dont hear about awesome port work done there. I would tap SD Performance for that and never look back. You will need absolutely all the head flow you can get and its money well spent.

Not to dis SD, but Butler was building engines and port'n heads long before SD open'd thier doors.

Problem with having someone build you up a set of ported performance iron heads is the cost.
You'll have more in them than a set of Aluminums and to what advantage?

I like Iron heads, but unless you just want the look of them it's tough to beat a set of E or KRE's out of the box cost wise.

Now, for a low buck home built grunt engine take the smallest chamber big valve head you got, hand port them, have a local shop cut the spring pockets for new springs and set the spring height for whatever cam you choose, install new SS valves and hardware, and port match the intake. Mill the face and intake surface .010
You'll still have about $800-$1000 in them.

Build the bottom end with forged rods, forged pistons, cast crank and deck to .005 in the hole.

I have had GREAT luck with SD Performance...no negatives about Butler. I have spent plenty of $$$ at both!

That right there is very good advice!

$800-$1000 isn't bad to get the heads done, basic valve job is around $400 here, Im defiantly going with Iron heads, 11.1 is going to be my high goal, probably the #62's on the 455, Saving the #13's for a 70 ys block I have, probably put the #16's on another 400 I have, problem is I have more engines than cars,

If you are gonna put the 72cc heads on a 455 you could go with a 15 cc or so Keith Black dished piston and get the cc's back up to 87cc or so. Then you can run pump gas and it'll still snap your neck back at will. And Butler even has 'em !!(half way down this page) http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/rods_pistons_pins/pistons.html

at this point I'm not considering pump gas as my drawback, unlike most people I will not be driving my car on an open highway very much, mostly around town and the local drag area