Just rec. my info. packet back from PHS. I may be pre-mature, but it seems the info. has raised more questions and concerns than provided answers. I rec. the Car Billing History and Car Order Form. Specific problems:
1. Code: 39(1) Rear Seat Speaker(1). I assume I had the original package tray as it was tremendously warped and there are no indications rear speakers were installed.
2. Code: 50(5) Power Steering(1), Power Brakes(2), Tilt Steering Wheel(4). I have power steering and power brakes but no indication of a tilt steering wheel.
3. I have Front Disc Brakes, but no Code: 52(1)
4. I have a Cordova Top. Top Color Code #1 Ivory-White is not listed and where would this Option be listed? Is this a dealer installed option?
5. Code: 37(D) Axle ID 2.78 Ratio. I have a 2.56 Axle Ratio.
All additional info. appears to be correct. The only new info. I didn’t know: Deluxe Wheel Discs, Custom Pedal Trim, and Red Wide Oval tries. I know I don’t have the original engine, but it seems unlikely all the above codes are correct. I also know I don’t have an exotic 68’ Firebird, but it seems expensive to verify what I already knew, learn little new info. and then raise all these other concerns. Would you consider the info. from PHS as being absolute? Thanks!

Info from the PHS is gathered from factory billing invoices. It is as reliable as the original records combined with the person doing the search. You can contact them with your concerns. I have done so in the past, and they have been courteous and prompt in reply.

I have had accurate results from four searches.

Have you verified that the VIN on your dash plate match the VIN under the cowl and other locations? It is always possible that the VIN was moved from another car, unless the car has been in your possession since new. Although illegal, it's not that uncommon.

Top color should also be available on the body code plate. You can run your body code plate through the analyzer: http://firstgenfirebird.org/firebird/1968/body_tag.html

You point out good points that I was aware of before PHS was created, or before it became what it has become.

I've been around and/or attracted to f/g/f cars ever since they were still under factory warranty: At age 10, I was bit by the 9-bird-bug back in 1968 when a hippy in a brand new 9 pulled his car over, and got got out to look at my home-buit chopper bicycle. Next, he showed me his brand new 9, 350 4 spd, and I thought. "I gotta have one of those things."

I finally got a 9 in 77. (The doors, deck lid, and complete interior of the one I bought in 77 are on the one I own now. No! I didn't wreck the other one. Someone stole the front clip off the car, and I used that car as a donor car for my 400 car.)

Anway, as time progressed through the 80's, I had been a loyal reader of "Pontiac" magazine for many years. They claimed that Pontiac kept lousy records; in fact, they didn't keep records, meaning that Pontiac didn't know what had been built or what cars were supposed to have what.

Side note: One reason why that many f/g/f cars are missing build sheets isn't always that the factory didn't bother to put them in the car. One reason is that if new-car make-ready alters items listed on the build sheet, the build sheet was removed and returned in the plethora of paper work exchange between the factory and the dealership.

To further show the history of inacurate Pontiac documentation, I don't know if it's still around at my parent's house, but I had a 1980, I belive, Kovel's collector car pricing book. That book claimed that the total production numbers for 69's was 42k. (I think its sister was listed as 500k total production numbers.) I don't know what today's production numbers show, but I think that the 9's production numbers are higher than 42k.)

When I heard that PHS uses dealer invoice as the source, I mentioned that dealer invoice and products off the line were 2 different things.

I realise and respect the fine, hard work done by PHS. And I'm not critisizing their attempt to document Pontiacs because--just like us--they have to work with what they have. The thing is that I don't think that it has accurate on which to draw information; as a reslut, it can only do its best to give the most accurate information it can find.

Your opening comment seems to document the point that I have made before.

Let's take this one step further, and I'll just stay on the speaker issue: Accroding to PHS, your car is missing the rear speaker.

I don't know what a rear speaker is supposed to look like. Do they cut out the area(s) that are partially cut out, or install the speaker with the area uncut? I know that they have areas stamped for 6x9's, rear defroster. And I think that they have an area stamped for a bastard-type single speaker. (Okay, folks with option knowledge: does the factory rear speaker go in a 6x9 area or in that other area that I think would be for a single speaker.)

Would the mounting hardware have scarred the paint? Or would the speaker have left an impression/stain somewhere? Also, there would be a speaker wire, and you would think that the wire would run through wrieng gutter. If someone had removed the speaker, would they have gutted the wire from beneath wherever it ran?

If it were a bet for money, I'd bet against PHS on this one because it's your car, and you know it better than anyone else. If the speaker had been removed, there would be some telltail signal. Something tells me that you are a good enough grease monkey to be able to figure out it a component has been removed, espcailly in an unrestored area.

From the way it stands, technically, PHS has devalued your car, saying it has something that it doesn't have, and probally never did.

As we all do, I wish that I had saved the Pontiac Mag's because it clearly stated that Pontiac had no clue as to what it built, after it rolled out of the door.

I know that they were selling magazines--well PHS is selling too--so I don't know how credible all the information was. The point is that it was a respectd as a credible source and their information came from Pontiac.

Even though your probally wizzin in the wind, I'd contact them about the differences. Keep us updated with the resluts because I'm most interested in hearing how they choose to handle this.

The PHS stuff for my 67 vert seems pretty accurate. It even said I had a rear speaker and sure enough I found it mounted up under the top well.

The stuff that happens on the line is certainly an issue, but since the customer is presumably billed for changes to the car made during the assembly sequence, the billing history should be the most accurate document.

The broadcast sheet will not always be accurate. I had a 'Cuda with a broadcast sheet full of options, VIN number matched, and there were slash marks through most of the options and red grease pencil changes "radio delete", "A/C delete", "P/S delete", "P/B delete", "covers delete" and more. There was no chance to get a billing history and I didn't get the window sticker or any other documentation, but it was clear that the car was modified while in sequence. When I got the car, it did not have any of the options that were "originally" on the broadcast sheet. It was pretty bare, with only go-fast parts left in the build.

Then there were changes made at dealer level, special packages, special options, special trim, pop in a different radio, or install wheel covers, or swap wheels from covers to Rallyes...all to make the sale.

There are also plenty of cars that wear VINs that were not originally issued to them. Swapping a dash or VIN plate is not difficult. Taking a VIN and parts from a rotten or wrecked hulk and installing it on a clean stripped chassis has been done since VINs have been around. Before PHS and broadcast sheet decoding, how would you know what the car was supposed to have? Mopars had data plates that carried far more information than the Pontiac body code tag, and you'd look to see if the engine UPC matched the VIN engine code. You can't do much with Pontiacs, just see if the VIN shows 6 cylinder or 8 cylinder, and if a handful of options are on the body code tag.

Thanks for all of your input. I think my biggest problem is I expected PHS to verify everything I already knew and then fill-in all the holes I didn't know. My bad! The frustrating part is 3/4 of the info. from PHS, the VIN, and the Body Tag is correct. I was just caught off guard w some of the info. I guess this is why my FGF is a labor of love. Lets face it - I get off while Camaros and GTOs suck up all the O2.
Yellowbird,
This must be our progession in life from old Mopar days:
Age:16 - 1969 SuperBee 440 Magnum, 727 torqueflight
Age: 19 - 1970 Road Runner 383, 4spd Hurst T-Handle
Points-once/mth and Starters-once/year.
Ah, I love this FGF stuff!

Anything man made can be screwed up even right from the factory. Depends on which day it was made. Mondays and Fridays are good days for mistakes to be made as employee absenteeism is highest on these days. Looks like there was 5 people "sick" the day your car was made. They take people from other parts of the line and fill in the gaps. If someone is unfamiliar with what they are supposed to do and just installs the parts from the pile in front of them you could end up with documentation not quite matching the end product. No wire for the speaker then there's no point in putting one in, it says drum brakes but theres a pile of disc brakes here so we'll put those on, I like this colour top better with this colour paint anyways, and so on.
"Slick" the salesman probably had some talking to do but sold the car anyways.
I worked for a manufactured home dealer who pre-sold a $70k home, did the complete setup, and then discovered the interior of the home was blue when it should have been green. ooops!

Gerry

I'm fairly new to Firebirds, but have been documenting and researching cars for many years. I have a file full of decoded Mopar codes that I gathered while junkyard hopping back in the pre-computer days.

Did you double check the VIN on the PHS docs? Sounds pretty lame, but maybe they misentered or misread it.

I had five 'Cudas but I really miss my dual point 440-6/4 speed/Dana 'Cuda! As long as the condenser was in place, I got at least six months from a set of points. Each of these cars has its traits that we grow to love or hate.

Do your pedals have the chrome trim rings around the pads? Does your interior color match the PHS? What codes are on your body plate 2nd and 3rd lines?

I think some of Pauls (KC?) problems might be explained by after-plant dealer options and installs, as well as a few 5-10 year later fixes and mods. In 1978 I bought a 1968 Camaro, and it needed alot of work, replacement parts and resto. That was only 10 years after it came off the assembly line, and good clean parts and upgrades were available then. Whoever has that car now would probably have no idea how many pieces I replaced and upgraded back in 78-79. If he got a document from GM showing what that car came off the assembly-line with..... he'd be very confused as to how he has what he has now!

Same sort of thing will happen with my 6 cyl car after I die. It didn't come with ralleys, fold down rear seat, hood tack (when I find one) or head rests (when I find some) but these are options I'm adding as I find them just because I want to.

Gerry

I am traveling tonight and don't have the info. w me, however, most of the info. is correct. 350, 2 bbl., auto, console, clock, remote mirror, alpine blue (DD indicates alpine blue body and top), teal interior, remote trunk release, etc. and I do have the Custom Pedal Trim and it is correctly identified. Is this option available on non-power non-disc brakes?

Many dealers added the "custom" pedal trim and other interior options to stock FGFs as the buyer wanted. Thats why you'll find many original FGFs that are Stock but have quite a few 36-38 year old custom interior pieces in and on them. Mine is one. I am now trying to add all the custom interior options just so everything matches.

My PHS was 100% accurate which is saying a lot because my car came loaded. However, the VIN plate was off by one digit from the firewall stamp. Jim Mattison (PHS) confirmed for me that the firewall VIN belonged to a hardtop (my car is a convertible) so it was clearly a mis-stamp. Perhaps you have a similar problem.

I received PHS documentation on both my cars and they are very accurate. The only difference is someone installed wheel opening mouldings on the convertible - probably the dealer.

Jim Mattison does a great job keeping track of all the Pontiac data. Be thankful you can document your FGF by just having the VIN. If you had a Camaro and did not have a build sheet, it would be pretty hard to document factory options because the records are not available.

Tom

I have a 1968 400 spd convert.All the info from
PHS was 100% correct right down to the rear axle
stamping.Jim does a great job for all of us.
All parts on cars are mostly mechanical,they do
wear or break,people replaced them years ago
not thinking these cars would be worth more
money,with original parts.It was a daily driver
for them years back not a collector.Times have
changed.Now every thing is a collector to someone.But I'm sure the factory had there problems to,they still do,I know first hand.
Every now and then I run into a option code label
on new cars that don't have the correct info on
them.
All in all I have to give Kudos to PHS.
Mike

Well, it sounds like I have a similiar problem with my 68 400 vert. I too recieved information from PHS and mine states that I should have the rear speaker as well. As far as I know, there was never a rear speaker in this car. There is a green wire run to the general area (same color as the front speaker wire). I took a good look at it and it does not appear to have ever been plugged into anything. Does anyone have a photo of a 68 convertable with a rear speaker? (I am assuming it would look similiar to the speaker in my 66 catalina conv.)

Another problem I have had with my PHS is the seats. I apparantly have one with a rare option. Deluxe parchment interior WITHOUT the comfort weave. The centers of the seats are made from the same naugahyde (sp?) material as the rest. I am still trying to figure out how I am going to get replacement covers that will be correct.

Additionally, I have a question about the documentation for the car order form codes. All of the options have been decoded with the exception of one. In box 75, there is a number '2'. Has anyone been able to determine what this is? I have tried to fax Jim Mattison at PHS, but he has never replied. I can't find a phone number to call them at.

Thanks...

Sounds like a really odd question...but does your car have ONE shoulder harness in the front seat?

Before you all think I've gone crazy, I have seen this before...

No, they are the basic deluxe seat belts, both drivers and passenger...

754 was the code for front shoulder belts according to Geoff's 68 archives. Does yours have shoulder belts as well as lap belts?

Or...do you also have rear shoulder belts?

Nope, all deluxe lap belts only. The 752 code has me stumped...

final question...does your car have factory rear seat belts? 754 was the front shoulder harness option for cars equipped with belts in all four seating positions. If not equipped with rear belts, the number may have been changed to reflect that, since front shoulder harnesses were supposed to be on four-belted cars only.

Yes, there are rears. Could this be it?

If I could only figure out how to get power top fluid out of the rear belts... It appears they were under the rear seat for many years in a puddles of fluid prior to the pump being repaired.

It appears it should have been 754 with rear belts installed.

Remove the belts from the car and soak them in GM upholstery cleaner, available from the dealer, or another ph-neutral non-bleaching cleaner. Change the solution frequently and wipe, but don't scrub, the belts. Scrubbing will raise the fibers. Rinse many times and air dry. Many cleaners will damage the fibers in the belts or stitching and weaken them, so use only mild solutions.