Hi all, I am new to the site and have been reading up on some of the past tips and all of you are just great. It is nice to see people out there helping one another.

I have bought a 68 about 6 months ago and am now in the process of winter maintenance/minor restoration. I have a problem however that I did not find in past posts. When I originally bought the car it would make a slight scraping/eking noise when pulling into the driveway and braking. It was slight and only did it when pulling in and turning left.

As the year wore on though, it seemed to get worse and by the end of the year it sounded like the front quarter was shaking off. It was kind of a scraping/grinding sound and it would now do this when I was pulling in left and right, however it was worse left than right.
I checked all the clearances to make sure nothing was rubbing and I also visually inspected the front end for any obvious problems, all was ok. I am not sure what this problem is, but needless to say I shelved the car early and am now getting around to troubleshooting the problem.
I have read other posts regarding the front end and there is no way I am risking this after hearing about losing wheels and hitting parked cars!

So as my car sits in the garage, begging for attention and care (previous owner was not as loving as I am) I wonder how to tackle this problem myself rather than taking it in???
Any suggestions that you may have would be greatly appreciated.

be sure to check your wheel bearings, both inner and outer. Best to replace them if you suspect they've been ignored.

Have you checked the brakes? The scraping/grinding sound you describe sounds to me like your brake shoes (drums) or pads (discs) are worn out and you've got metal contacting metal when you apply the brakes. The reason it might sound louder when you turn left as opposed to right is that the left front wheel turns towards the driver when turning left and the grinding might be more easily heard then. Just a theory of mine.

I'd definitely start at the brakes when looking for the source of the sound.

Good Luck, Bruce

My power steering pump(s) made a similiar sounds right before dying.

68 350 Coupe

Check all the body bushings on the suspension as well.

Steve

I second GJs comment, my PS pump ONLY makes that terrible noise when I am pulling into a parking spot, otherwise all is well. I assume this is due to loosening or worn belts but haven't trouble-shot it yet. Could be your brakes too. I would think the front wheel bearings would be noticable at all speeds and conditions, but you never know - plus its any easy job to replace them.

GJ/Nash, The PS seems to be operating fine, no dead spots and smooth lock to lock. Since the PS pump is running all the time wouldn’t it make that noise all the time and not necessarily only when pulling into a spot? When the car is at a stand still and you load up the PS pump by turning the wheel it makes no noise. How can I go about ruling this out though? Other than complete failure I don’t know how to determine that a PS pump is going bad?

With respect to the breaks or wheel bearings being the cause,
Wheel bearings: Would I hear this noise all the time if it were wheel bearings because they are always in motion with the car? However, Vikki I think I am going to follow your advice and just replace them anyway.

Breaks: I don’t hear that noise when braking in a straight line, would that rule the breaks out or is there something about front power drums on this car that may cause this only in turns?

Thanks for your help.

I second Villi's call to replace the bearings.

The lateral load would be greatest when turning and braking, which I assume you do when you turn into a driveway. I suspect the bearings are not adjusted correctly, which would be a bigger issue when turning. Make sure the spindles are not trashed and carefully set the bearings to spec.

My two cents.

Sometimes brake noise gets absorbed and you can only hear the noise at certain times, even if they're shredded. It cant hurt to check the brakes and the bearings, as well as thoroughly inspect the steering and suspension, including bumstops and spring clash.
Dont forget to check the rear... sometimes noise travels. I'm leaning towards body or suspension bushings myself, but without us hearing the noise, you pretty much just have to start inspecting.

Not really any efficient way of checking the P/S. If it doesn't make the same or similar noise when you load it, that's probably not it.

Look for any shiny spots too. It could even be tire rub due to a bad bushing somewhere.

This may be very stupid (but the only stupid question is the one not asked) , but do you have the correct tires, rims sizes, could it be any rubbing?

My 67 had a similar noise...horrible creeking when entering the drive and turning. It was caused by the upper control arm bushings. They looked good visually, but once I replaced them the noise went away.

I checked all the clearances for the tires and they are ok and the body doesn’t seem to roll enough in turns to make contact with the tires.

Sounds like I have plenty of inspecting to do over the next few weeks.
Thanks for all your help and suggestions. I am really glad to have fellow birders out there like you all. I really do appreciate the help.

"I second Villi's call to replace the bearings."

Oh, Vikki is going to kill you!!

Granted, I have never had a set of front bearings go out on me in the middle of a drive or anything, but I would assume bad bearings would be noticed at other speeds and turns. Maybe not, its just me talking.

68 BLKBRD, yes my friend, you have opened a can of worms and must now check everything our folks have posted as possible solutions!! And of course we want to hear what you finally find as the cause.

bird67conv's idea of the upper CA bushings is a possibility for sure.

Me and a friend were riding in his Monte Carlo at about 70MPH on the interstate when his front diver side bearing failed compleatly.

Blew the hub cap off and almost set the car on fire.

Nash, Vikki, others
OK you guys are selling me on the bearings, bushings, etc... but I wont be able to tell you if it worked or not because I have the whole interior torn out of the car and Chicago winters are not conducive with 36 year old metal. Gotta wait until all the snow and salts gone. But I will post and let all you know what the verdict was. Once again thanks for all your advice, your all very helpful. Great site.

I'm in Michigan, so I know what you mean about the weather!

Lift the front just a couple inches off the ground and spin a front wheel as fast as you can. It should spin freely, quietly (if not, bearings). When it stops, grab it firmly at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock and alternately push and pull to rock it. It should not clunk (if it does, check steering linkages) or wobble (bearings). Next grab at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock and rock again. If it clunks or moves, check your ball joints, control arms, and bearings. Do it all again on the other side. Next, with both front wheels off the ground and the car securely set on jack stands, unlock the ignition and turn the wheels all the way left to right and back, and listen for noise. First do it without the engine running to listen for mechanical interference, then with the engine running to check the p.s. pump.

Even without driving these may help narrow it down, and require no disassembly for basic evaluation.

Awesome advice, I will try this out this weekend. Thanks a lot. I am actually in Northwest Indiana and we have been getting killed with the lake effect snow
Thanks and I will let you know what I find.

To add a little to Vikki's excellent directions... When checking upper arm bushings and all balljoints, lift by lower arm to unload them. For the rest, support it by the frame.

Checking the body bushings can be done visually, or by carefully lifting the body (use wood on the seam) and observing movement between frame and body at the respective bushings.

The lower balljoints also should have a wear indicator where the grease (zerk) fitting is. If the circle of metal where the zerk screws in is flush or recessed from the rest of the stamping, the joint is worn out.

Finally got around to checking the front end of my car this weekend:
Started out by checking the PS pump, checked out ok, no noise.
Body bushings showed signs of wear but were ok.

Checked the clearances, appeared to be ok when standing still, but when I removed the wheel I discovered that the driver side wheel is hitting in 3 places! It is hitting at the rear outer corner of the wheel well at the very bottom, the back of the wheel well about ¾ of the way up and the very inside of the wheel well at about the same spot. I believe this is where my noise was coming from; I didn’t notice this until I had the tire off because it apparently only hits when under load and there were no visible signs of rubbing. How can I fix this? It is barely hitting. Will wheel spacer’s work??? Is there an adjustment that can be made to the A arms to move the wheel forward???

I also followed Vikki’s instructions and found that wheel bearings were shot on the passenger side, it was like a ratchet when turning it. I had to take the drums off though to make sure that it wasn’t the shoes rubbing. Oh and by the way, I have a bit of a Frankenstein car, 68 drums on the passenger side and 67 (staked) drums on the driver’s side. Gotta love it! Needless to say I replaced the bearings on both sides and the tires turn smooth as silk.

Also used Vikki’s instructions and checked the linkages and ball joints, they were solid, no give or noise but the upper ball joint grease seals were blown apart. Do they need to be replaced?

Other than these two things everything was rock solid and in good shape.
Thanks for all your help.

I was in Florida when this post was made, but I had put big money on Vikki's call.

Whay size wheels do you have? F/g/f cars are hard cars to stuff into oversized sneakers.

Tire size is P215-70SR15.
I was reading some past posts about this, and it seemed like there were several routes that can be taken to try and resolve this. Cutting springs, bushings, wheel spacers etc...
It looks like the sidewall is just too big on these tires, but, I am not in the market for a tire replacement. It looks like if the whole wheel moved forward and out it would clear.
Whats the best route?

That's almost a 27" diameter. The best way for you would probably be to get a pair of tires. Sorry. look at some 225 or 235/60s. closer to 26" diameter. That'll bring the sidewall in 1/2" all around.

You cant get the wheel to move forward more than a hair unless something else is seriously wrong and needs to be fixed.

Did you say you had 2 different brakes on the front of the car? I'm no expert (at all), but that just doesn't sound safe to me...

Having one slip off drum and one staked drum should not cause problems. It just means one drum comes off more easily for a brake inspection. As long as the thicknesses of the drum faces are the same, it wont cause any tracking/alignment problems either.

A finned drum and a smooth drum could cause a brake pull when warmed up... not unlike using a drum near max diameter and a new drum. One side wouldn't cool as well and could effect braking.

I think the adjustments youre referring to with the A-arm adjust caster and camber. You dont want to adjust that to move the wheel as it will have very undesireable effects. Now Im no expert here, but it seems to me that if your wheel is not sitting in the wheel-well right, it could be that your front end sheet metal could need adjusted from the firewall forward in relation to the subframe. I believe there are ways to adjust the relative positions of the body, the subframe, and the frontend sheet metal. Obviously the other wheel is sitting in the wheel-well better, so it could be that the subframe is sitting just a little off-center in relation to the body/front end. Just my 1½ cents worth. Charlie

the right tire on my car rubbed when turning, rubbed one of the finder screws. took the wheel off and found out it had the original ball joints in it. we replaced the ball joints, bushings, idler arm, and tierod ends. didnt rub after that, so i would check your ball joints. just a guess.

The passanger side tire sits in just fine and does not rub at all, so it may be that the drivers side SM needs adjusting.

As far as ball joints go, do they need to be replaced if the grease fitting is blown apart? I checked them out and they seem to be ok, no play, excess wear or clunking. The only problem that I can see is that the fitting (not the grease fitting, but the big one that holds the grease in) is busted and therefore, the grease is coming out of it.
I am planning on replacing both upper and lower ball joints to be safe.

You definitely should replace the ball joints then, they may feel nice and tight but under a load they may act differently and once you get foreign materials in the grease, they could bring about disastrous results. Theyre very inexpensive compared to the alternative. As far as adjusting the sheet metal, it may not be feasible if its all in line with the body, without making it all mis-aligned. If all of the door-to-fender and fender-to-hood joints are inline and spaced corectly, then it could be that the subframe being a lil crooked is whats causing the problem.

The lines are all good on the car, so I am thinking that the subfram is crooked.
How can this be straightened out???

buy a new subframe...

Here are the measurments to the subframe:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/F_gen_Firebird_sub.jpg

Measure yours to verify if the subframe is crooked.

What kind of tolerance (what is the plus or minus) is ok on these measurements?

One other question, if the subframe is out of plumb, what future problems will it cause aside from the tire clearance one that I have right now. I don’t have the means of replacing the entire subframe so I am curious about the implications of this problem now and also in the future.
The car does not pull to one side or the other right now, it handles well in turns, doesn’t veer when accelerating or braking. Overall everything seems ok. Minus the tire rubbing.
I am just looking for a little peace of mind here.

Is your car sitting level? if subframe is bent , very often it would make the car 'lean'..like if the frame is up some on left front it tends to push down right rear...
of course it could be bent just side to side, but "normall" if its bent it will go up or down too...

Replacing the front tires will be a WHOLE lot cheaper than replacing the subframe. Reduce the diameter by 1" and make sure you have the correct backspacing, and that the tire width is suitable for the rim width.

The front of the car sits level, but the right rear is higher than the left. I was thinking that it was the leafs.
I just put new shocks in all around so I know that isnt the problem.
I will check the spacing as jusride said, but if I want to check the height (front and rear), where are good spots to measure from?
I would imagine that measuring from the wheel wells wouldnt be good because the sheetmetal may be off.
A stupid question, I was looking at the sheet that jusride sent me and it shows where the lift points are, I have been jacking the car up and placing the jackstands under the subframe. The spot I have been using is that cross-member just in front of the motor. Is this bad or is this spot sturdy enough to jack from? Could it have caused this problem?

I measured all the sub-frame dimensions per Jusride's attachement. I only had two measurements that were off more than a 1/4 inch.
They where:
measurement F: supposed to be 65 1/4 and it was 64 7/8
measurement J: supposed to be 42 7/8 and it was 41 1/4

I used some make-shift plumb-bobs pencil, needle, thread and duct tape. So the measurements are pretty accurate.
I thought that the body bushings were in ok shape but after looking closly at them I see that they are totally shot and need to be replaced. Would this cause the discrepancy in the F measurement?

I dont know why the J measurement was off?

Either way, would this cause the driver side wheel to rub in the rear? Seems to me that a shorter F measurement would put the wheel up further in the well.

I think a shorter F measurement would cause it to be further BACK in the wheel-well, i.e. if you stretched out the F measurement to where it should be, it would also lengthen the left side wheelbase, correct? You may try measuring the wheelbase on each side and comparing them. But thats kinda what i was thinking about the subframe. It would seem that its mounted to the body a lil off-center, which would explain why the RF wheel sits in the wheel-well right and the LF doesnt. And Im pretty sure that adjusting it is going to be a MAJOR undertaking. If it was me, I would certainly ask for advice from one of the more knowledgeable guys on here before I attempted it...Im sure there are plenty who could point you in the right direction. It may be able to be done without pulling the motor, but Im not sure. Youre probably going to have to make a lot of adjustments to the fenders, etc, to get them all square and true again, but it would be the right way to do it, in my opinion.

Get some new bushings. Make sure the frame is not rotted where they sit. Line the frame up properly with all the new bushings in place before you tighten any bolts.

Do a search on body bushings and/or frame bushings. There are already some pretty good directions around from a while back, but if you need more, we'll be here.

On dimension J, either it was measured a little sloppy (straight across 2 plumb bobs on a crooked car?), or it was hit in the rear or elsewhere once, or it is 35yrs old and has succumbed to the effects of gravity and/or torque... or maybe some other reason. I wouldn't worry too much about unless it causes a problem.

I agree F being short could cause the front left wheel to be sitting back too far, and could easily be because of the bushings.

I have read mostly all the past posts regarding body bushing replacement and it appears to be doable.
The only question that I have left is how do you go about moving the subframe to get it square?
I am going to create a new post that is dedicated to this question.
See sub-frame adjustment post.