I started my first thread in the For Sale section (which was a newbie mistake), where I was asking for help on a specific 68' Firebird I was looking at. A great many of you were immensely helpful but alas that particular bird was not meant to be.

This is a wonderfully informative site and you guys seem to have a great community here. I've been looking for a first gen Firebird on and off for awhile now. I've been sticking to 67' and 68' hardtops. If there are no objections, I'd like to share my search with you. Hopefully it will give you all some nice starter birds to look at while also giving you a feel for what's out there. In return, I'll hopefully get some sound advice about the birds I'm considering.

Without further adieu, here's one I'm currently researching. Perhaps you all could help me decode the data plate. It's not the best pic but it's all I have. The vehicle is located in SC.

VIN: 223378U129008



Click here for a larger version: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/NeoLink/SC%20Firebird/P1030461.jpg

Based on what I've found. It looks like it was made in the second week of December in Lordstown. It's production number indicates it being a V8. Interior trim code is "standard - black". It's a 68 two door hardtop.

It also has one of the rarer functional ram-air hoods which seem to match this data as Pontiac didn't start offering that until mid-68'. All in all this info seems to match the car pretty well. The only confusing part is that it has a remote ctrl driver's side mirror and that doesn't seem to match in being a standard interior.

That's not odd. My 400 coupe has std int, yet has tilt, deluxe wheel, and remote driver's mirror. You could order darn near any option combo back then. Only PHS will tell you exactly how your car was optioned/built.

Update: I have to make a decision by 5pm today. I got him down to $9,500.

Here is a link to the rest of the pics: http://photobucket.com/scfirebird

Here's what I know in addition to what I mentioned above:

The paint job is supposedly a 10K show room deal. Was taken down to base layer (not metal), water sanded, buffed, 2 coats of Nathan primer, etc.

Bottom has been cleaned up and painted. Engine bay and trunk painted. Trunk has original splatter paint.

New truck pan, new quarter panel. No rust.

Hood is a functional ram-air.

Power steering, power drum brakes, No AC.

Power remote driver's side mirror.

The back was blocked to level the car.

New carpet.

Factory 10 bolt rear ned.

New bumpers from Year One, front and back.

The engine block reads "YR 481990", which comes up as a 72' 350 I think. The heads however date as being from a 400 and from 67'. So the engine is def not number matching. I would have liked numbers matching but it wasn't a requirement. No idea what the estimated HP is. Car does run and sounds smooth.

Flowmaster dual exhaust with headers.

No back seat but he'll throw in a 68' Camaro one.

He has all of the original badges and wheel trim, just hasn't put them back on after paint.

He originally bought it off a friend and was going to make it a 25K car (hence the body work and paint job). He's got 7 other re-builds going though and was worried about the niche Firebird market. He also wants a lake house and decided to stop where he he's at and make a quick sale.

I have another 5K available to put into it right away. After that it will be restored over a longer period of time.

Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated.

The other option is this Firebird for 16K. Going this route doesn't leave my anything to play with right away. The biggest issue with this one is that the body parts don't align properly. I don't have experience with this but was told it was a relatively easy fix. The 16K is based on private emails with the seller.

1968 Firebird - eBay

imo , no 2 looks better (the 16k car),
but my question is : if the body panels are an easy fix, why arent they done?

Always beware of cars with a fresh paint job, in a few months you will see the flaws start popping up after the bodywork shrinks and settles in.
Problem is all the check marks in the original paint is almost impossible to hide even with the best sealer.
Love when they say 10k show room paint job, if that was the case it should have been stripped all the way down to metal.

The alignment issues are likely all due to repop parts. Almost impossible to fix (hide) once new paint is applied.

You could spend years trying to re-align that car and without bodywork, it will still look similar to what it does now.

Guy says he's spent too much already and just wants it gone.

That's what I was concerned about. I'll pass on that one.

I agree but it does have a nice paint job. Saw pics of it in the paint room. The paint room was high end. This is the bird I'm leaning towards due to the price. $9,500 seems to be in line with my research. Granted this is my first Firebird and first classic car all together. I've talked to the guy about a half dozen times for an hour or so per call. Seems like a straight shooter but you never know. I wish I knew someone near Aiken, SC.

Here's the third and final bird I'm considering. Pretty sure I can get him down to 15K. I'm not a fan of the red dash but otherwise it looks like it could be a decent start for my restoration.

1967 Firebird, TN

Here's a link to the engine running: 68 Firebird, TN Engine test

Can't you just use shims to re-align body parts?

Only to a certain degree. If the shape or size of the panel is not correct (meaning repop), it won't fit the contours of the body no matter how hard you shim. After seeing my bodyman take the front clip off and on my '67 about 100 times, I understand the fit issues. And I was working with rust-free original parts and NOS GM fenders. The repops are way worse than that, especially the front sheet metal and repop bumper.

Here are the latest pics of the underside.

Underside pics

Who paints the entire underside? Guy didn't even bother to cover the drums or exhaust. I also noticed in another pic that he didn't take the doors off when painting the exterior, over-spray all over the inside.

Realized I posted my thread in the wrong section again. Why am I not banned yet?

Was this actually an option or is it all modded? I actually prefer the bench seat with column shifter but doubt I could bring myself to change it that much unless it was an actual option offered.

we give newbies some slack....for awhile...lol

Front bench seat was not really an option, it was stock, with column shifter...the separate seats were an option , then added option was console with shifter

Now THAT looks like a nice 'bird! Which one is that?

Looks all stock to me. Does look nice doesn't it? White deluxe always does to me. Don't think you could get a 4sp on the column though.

Unfortunately one that wasn't for sale. I'm still trying to decide if I want to buy one already restored or do a frame off. I'm a novice in every sense of the word but I feel like I'll be missing out on part of the experience by buying one already done or almost complete. And while I have zero mechanical experience I know I'm a quick study. Looking at it realistically, the parts I would have the most trouble with would be the frame and paint. Paint would obviously have to be farmed out and I'm still debating whether or not I could handle the frame. I've never welded except in high school shop class...once.

I also feel like I'd be saving another bird, actually contributing to the owner's group instead of just buying my way in.

I have two former teammates that are restoring classic muscle cars or have done so before but they are into resto mods so their advice has been skewed towards that. For me personally, I feel like when you change that much what's the point? Are you even really driving a 1968 Camaro or just something that looks like it? It's the guts that give a car it's soul and their cars may boast more power and better handling but they lack the personality that drew them to a classic car in the first place.

I came across it again last night while looking (I'm pretty sure I've seen every 68' for sale on the web at least twice now). It was sold but you can see more pics and details here. This is the color combo I want to go with if I decide against black w/ white deluxe interior.

http://www.cars-on-line.com/57151.html

How about a Coronado Gold 'vert?

You're almost always going to be money ahead buying a finished car than restoring a beater. Plus there are other factors to consider. How much time and effort it takes to do a restoration. I can't tell you how many cars I've seen that the new owner was so committed to restoring only to take it all apart, spend a ton of dough on parts and then lose interest or get hung up on one segment and end up selling it off for 1/4 of the money he had invested. From the time you buy a builder to the time you actually start getting to enjoy driving it around you could be talking about 5-10 years. Seriously!! I have seen marriages break up over things like this. Always nice to run across the ex selling her husband's project off just to get it out of HER garage. Some pretty good deals to be had sometimes. If you end up with a solid car don't be too quick to take it all apart and "fix" it.

Some new pics of the 68' in SC I was looking at. I wish he hadn't painted the bottom so I could tell what was rusted. I want this one but it's such a risk. The price is $9,500.



SC 68' FB 1 of 3



SC 68' FB 2 of 3



SC 68' FB 3 of 3

risk taking is part of life, most of the time...

I haven't been looking at FGF's nearly as long as all of you have. Based on all of the pics I've linked to this bird, is the price within market averages for it's condition? I'm not holding anyone to their opinion, just adding what resources are out there to my pool of considerations.

Remember it's got a 1972 Pontiac 350 in it with 1967 heads from a 400. The hood is a functioning ram air, which if my research is correct was only offered on 400 models in 68.

I'd need to factor in a 400 block and subsequent re-build. The positive is I can drive it while I do that.

The entire interior on this needs re-done which is a positive since I wanted to go with an Ivory White.

Album 1

Album 2

I would step back and take a deep breath. Cars in this price range are easy to come by. Decide what you really want then when you see it you'll know it without hesitation.

You have to look at a lot of cars before you find the right one.

Do it right the first time. Buy what you really want so you'll be happy with it and take pride in it.

But, that's just one mans opinion.

OK, I am looking at the black '68 in the photo albums and I see interesting stuff:

1) You put a nice smooth black paint job on a car in an obviously very dusty environment (body shop?) and you don't cover it?
2) You want to sell said black car and you put a lot of effort into detailed photos, but you don't remove the dust first?
3) Every untreated bolt I see in the engine compartment is very rusty.
4) I see evidence on the engine, alternator and upper radiator hose of a pretty good hot coolant blow. Or it might just be body shop dust that stuck to every bit of underhood moisture or oil like dusting for fingerprints.
5) EVERYTHING and I mean everything under the hood but the engine was sprayed semi-gloss black.
6) EVERYTHING, and I mean everything under the car has been sprayed with undercoating.

The body looks pretty straight.

Just for a reference, this is an example of a few of the 67-69 cars that was sold at one of the auctions in Scottsdale this past winter. Going rate was 11k-18k for real 400 Firebirds.

Another good example. This one was posted here and just sold recently for $15k and now the asking price is $26,900

https://firstgenfirebird.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=250615&page=1

http://cloud9classics.com/1968-pontiac-firebird-26900/

They are out there. Keep looking.

Here is my opinion--
I am 52 and have been doing this since I was 19. As several have said, you probably need to look at a lot of cars and talk to a lot of people before buying anything. When you are excited and new to this, it is easy to buy something quickly that is not the best for you. Restoring a car is a much bigger and probably a more frustrating job than you can realize until you do it.

I urge you to decide what you want to end up with--a nice car to drive?--a true matching numbers date code correct car to show? You probably want a stock looking nice car to drive on weekends that may not have all of the original drivetrain. In any event, you will be better off in every way if you buy a complete car in good condition to work with. Cars needing a lot of repair are too much for most anyone except experienced body guys. And taking a rusty car to a good body shop will probably cost you more than the car is worth. Spending more up front is almost always smart.

I would suggest a few car shows--especially Pontiac shows. Speak to a few of the car owners. Some of them will enjoy helping you and even look at a car or two with you. Every model and year has certain things to look for. I think you will be glad that you took your time in the end. This hobby can be the most fun or the most frustration that you can imagine.

You might start by contacting the POCI chapter in your area. They may have a car show coming soon or a meeting where you could speak to a few people.

Also, I am in the Triad area of NC. If you ever come this way, let me know.

Good luck!
Michael

Wow, check out the different descriptions between the ex-owner and the used car dealer:

"I've never had the engine out of the car." vs.:

"The folks in Oklahoma had the cosmetic restoration done and he went through the drive train and other components over the 7 years he owned the car."

That silver one makes me so sad, haha. I was reading that thread a few days ago.

Unfortunately a vert isn't an option, so that limits things somewhat but I'm going to take your advice and step back for a bit.

When I see it, I'll know.

This looks like a pretty nice deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-Pont...a#ht_500wt_1093

Certainly a lot closer to true than all the others.

What do you guys think of this one. Matching numbers 68' 6 CYL Overhead cam Coupe for $13K. Been looking at 400s mainly but the 6ocs are neat in their own right. Most of them weren't driven as hard and thus are likely to be in better overall condition. Plus they are bit more rare. I could always swap out the drivetrain later and keep the 6oc in case I ever wanted to sell.

http://www.racingjunk.com/Firebird/2541863/1968-Pontiac-firebird-.html

I plan on painting it black and think the white deluxe interior in a black firebird would look pretty slick.

That red interior is hard on the eyes. Plus don't think the white top would go with a black bird. Add up the cost of replacing the entire interior, exterior paint and new black top and it's just too much $$$ to get it where I'd want.

This one is alot like my Bird, accept mine is a original 326 with delux red interior

I've been looking strictly at 350s and 400s. What do I need to know about the och 6? The more I read up on them, the more I find myself intrigued.

I figure finding parts is going to be harder and more expensive. I know HP isn't everything so how does it compare? Still get up and go? Any benefits over the V8s other than MPG and being rarer? Handling any better?

I believe they have a higher ceiling than the already bored out 400s, correct?

I own a 67 Sprint that I love. The Sprints would be the best handling stock cars from Pontiac because they came with the 400 suspension in a much lighter car. However, you can easily make any stock car handle better than these were in the day with some slight improvements. The base OHCs are probably a coin flip with the other v8 FGFs.

Parts are available but you have to be patient and use the boards, EBay, etc. As far as gas mileage I have never checked. I suspect is better than a v8, but don't know for sure.

The biggest draw you will see is when you go to a show, cruise night, etc, you will have a better chance of being struck by lightning than seeing another cammer. I routinely have people saying, wow is that stock, I have never seen that before, etc, etc.

You really should go over to the OHC board and try to meet up with Sprint6. He is from VB and extremely knowledgeable. I think he owns a Tempest Sprint, but you will be able to discuss in person.