ok, this is starting to really freak me out..

My 455 engine is in they bay, but when its bolted to the engine mounts, the front of the motor slants to the passengers side. is this normal? or do I have some kind of frame issue???
please help.. any pic you can post showing your engine from the top of the radiator back would be helpful. i'm gong to the car right now to get one of mine so you can take a look.

Thanks

Relax. It's normal. The engines are offset a bit to the passenger side to clear the steering gear.

Search the Tech Section and you will see this is almost an FAQ.

https://firstgenfirebird.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=251976&page=1

well, its not supposed to be crooked, but offset about 1/2 inch to an inch to passenger side...but straight while 'over there'....is is crooked in the engine room? or just offset?

correct Bjorn off set to one side yes... however its crooked!

offset to one side is ok...crooked not....no idea why thats the case...bent motormounts? or subframe? was it ok before? or is this the first time theres an engine in there after youve owned it?

after reading that link (I did look in FAQ I SWEAR!.. if I move tranny over, engine will streigthen out I believe

anyone know the exact specs as to how far over its off set so I can adjust my 7004r transmission mount accordingly?

ps Bjorn i've been on this site for 6 years now and always see you being a helful richous dude!

thanks pete....I dont know about mounting of the 7004r though , it may be off some from the stock th350, th400? not sure...IF I had gone thru with a swap I considered recently I would know by now, sorry...someone else may know this.

in the other thread Bob S. said before

"Not sure what you are asking. But the engine should be offset towards the passenger side and angled, since the trans tail shaft is centered. The fan is offset with the engine and is centered in the shroud fan opening, which is offset with the engine. You may have a small block camaro shroud. Chevy small blocks are centered."

so, you may be ok with it crooked...I was sure (pretty sure, not enough) it would be straight...

It has to be crooked because the tailshaft of the tranny is centered.

Dude, it's offset and crooked. When you bolt the engine to its mounting location, the tranny aligns by default. Crank them down, and you are rocking and rolling. You start phucking with alignment, and you'll screw up driveline phase.

Myself, I think that position is a factory defect, and Pontaic is pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining.

Way back when some of the fgf advisors were even able to think about driving a car, let alone drive one, the 'excuse' for the position was to offset engine torque.

Whether or not my guess is correct, I'll give Pontiac credit for the possible cover up. All you have to do is simply look at the crooked, offset install, and it's a good defense to claim it offsets engine torque.

As for that pos tranny you want to install, I can only guess that it makes no difference in driveline phase. Then again, maybe it would because as you alter the length of the engine/tranny, I see how it could bleed out on driveline phase.

The only tranny I would use is the more-than-well-documented high performanc tranny, the th350 because there isn't another tranny what even comes close. So I have to pretend. That's okay because lots of people around here pretend, and I should also be allowed to pretend.

If I were going to install that pos tranny, something that I have to pretend I'm doing, I would install it according to the natural registere of the engine mounts, and capture the rear location on the relocated crossmember.

Well, I don't know what you mean by crooked, but mine sits with the front angled toward the right [starboard] side. The exhaust is very close to the steering box and may be why the thing is off-set. Since the tranny is in-line with the crankshaft the tranny is also off-set as well as the tail shaft. The tail-shaft is centered between the rails but angled towards the left rear. From there the universal joint allows the drive-shaft to go straight back to the diff. There is sideways correction at the front universal that we wouldn't have if the engine was sitting in line with the fore/aft axis. Doesn't seem to stop all the tire melting and rather abrupt forward acceleration from stop lights so no worries.

this made it very hard for the Aussies that (used to) had to move the steering over to the right side

Dont forget, the rear end is off set do to ring and pinion.

so, factory..is the crossmember differnt from the camaro to the firebird? inquiring minds want to know. keep in mind i'm about 1 month before startup, before teardown and paint. i'm in the 50G neighborhod on this car. If its actually a better idea to relocate the motor mount holes, I'm at the point I can do that. Engine should be around 515hp plus two 125 shots of nitrous at the strip, mini tubbed. ect. ect. ect.

It has to be crooked because the tailshaft of the tranny is centered.

i've done some research about drive line phase.. .

basicly offset ok, but crank turning at a differnt angle then rearend yoke not so good. lots of stress... this BS?

link

http://jniolon.clubfte.com/drivelinephasing/drivelinephasing.html

comments welcome!

My only comment is that this guy is apparently unaware of how Pontiac Firebirds were built.

Our Firebirds don't suffer any discernable problems driving with a presumably out-of-phase driveline. So I'm rather certain yours won't either.

But if you want to straighten it out and over-ride how Pontiac designed it, I wish you Godspeed...it might work out fine for ya. Might not. But man I believe is it gonna cause some other fit problems for you in the process....steering box, exhaust, shroud, brake booster, factory air if equipped...all come to mind. Prepare yourself for some extra (and IMO unnecessary) custom work if you decide to set this engine at a different angle than Pontiac designed....

To answer your question about whether Camaro and Firebird subframes are different: No. They are identical. Engine mounts, however, are different. And tranny xmembers are different.

Some details on trans crossmembers camaro vs firebird:
http://firstgens.com/home/42-engine-tech/54-transmission-crossmembers.html

When I had my drive shaft shortened for my "new" transmission, the shop that I took it to noticed that the u-joints were not "in phase" as mentioned in the link above. They brought it to the attention of the senior member of the shop who said that he remembered that back in the day Firebirds were built with that and there was some good reason for it. He wasn't sure just what the reason was but he said it had to be that way. They were very careful to re-assemble the shaft exactly as it was. Could this slight defference be there because of the slight angle of the engine?
Anyway, the shortened shaft works well with no vibrations or any other issues.

Good point on the driveshaft thing. Maybe related. And here's my counter-point...when I replaced my FGF open rear end with a posi rear-end out of a 74 Nova, I also had to shorten my driveshaft and change a yoke out. My driveshaft shop noticed right away that my original was out-of-phase, and when I carried it into the shop the owner said "must be out of a first gen camaro/Fbird?" so he recognized it right away as being unique to those models, without me telling them first what it came from...also ID was easy he said based on the oddball diameter. Then they told me they ALWAYS rebuild these shafts in-phase because they could never find a compelling reason why GM did this, and they've never had one come back for vibrations. So I took their word and they shortened mine and re-yoke'd it in-phase. And I also have no vibrations at any speed.

This driveshaft anomoly was discussed here regarding Firebirds previously:
https://firstgenfirebird.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=55929&page=1

Seems most people report Fbirds are about 45 degrees out of phase.

And some of the first gen Camaros had it too...but not all. Some discussions of a similar topic here:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=914.0

and here:

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7861.0

Note that most Camaros who report out-of-phase often say they are 10 to 20 degrees out of phase, depending on who reported it.

Dennys sells driveshafts for Camaros, including the feature of being "offset phased" without specifiying an amount:
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/p121_196...shaft_for_.html

Of course countless other driveshaft shops sell shafts for these vehicles. With the exception of Dennys, the vast majority seem to line the u-joints up and sell them in-phase.

Frankly it seems to me that equal success is reported with vibration control, regardless of method of driveshaft configuration.

I already have my aluminum 'The'driveshaft shop" driveshaft.

I'm going to have it offset 1 inch and tail shaft on tranny offset. it will be infast with him done.

Right is Right. pontiac might of bent a little rule or threw that offset tail shaft in there to fix an issue.