Can you guys give me any suggestions as to what Brand of clutch n pressure plate and throw out bearing is the best to buy,??.. I need a 11 inch clutch.. it will be a street car, 400 cu. inch.. 4 barrel.. probly somewhere between 350 to 400 horses.. I need a real good one, I don't want to be replacing it in a couple of years.. please help,, it's crunch time, Thanks..
11" RAM HD/Power Grip is what I ran in the Firebird was good up to 500hp. Do yourself a favor and be SURE you get the correct throwout bearing. Pontiacs use the taller bearing NOT the short one!
I also noticed in the illustrated parts manual for the 68 Firebird the clutch is a three finger, the same that was on mine. They have a picture of a vane type in a separate box.
Who Can I call to make Sure I order and Get the right "Tall" Throwout bearing,, Ames,????... Thank you guys,, this is exactly the kind of help I need... Also,, Mine is a 69 firebird.. if that makes any difference..
The Napa in Sidney lists three sizes, the one that came with my clutch kit was short, the one I took out was about 1-15/16" I thought the new one was shorter becaouse I was going from a three finger style to a vane type, wrong! Number on bearing: 614037 BCA G01697-CA Hope that helps. Al.
Hey thanks,, is the new one that I need to buy 1-15/16 inches long??????.. and is the part number you gave me a NAPA parts number only????.. thanks again guys..
When I ordered my clutch from Summitt I made it very clear that the clutch was going into a Pontiac and luckily the guy on the phone knew exactly what I ws talking about regarding short/tall and he assured me that I'd get the correct one and I did...
ta69vert, I got mine two years ago, I checked Napa again and now they only show two and they are both only 1-1/4 inch. The numbers I gave you are the numbers on the old bearing I took out. For some reason it was still sitting on a shelf. Rock auto list one for thirty bucks but don't show how tall it is, the other 10 or so bearings they have listed all have dimensions. Maybe you can get lucky and talk to the same guy at Summitt that Earlybird did, or maybe Earlybird has the Summitt part number. I checked out the GM nuumber-908092 and found it was dis-continued. The guys at one of the slomaro sites seem to think the tall one was on lo-perf. cars and the short on Hi-perf. and police cars. I don't know if there is any truth to that or not, I can't see what difference in performance the throw out bearing would make unless it has something to do with whether or not its a Borg&Beck or vane type clutch? Al.
There are three basic "flavors" of the "cone height" for the pressure plate. Stock Ram Air cars used the "high cone", which in turn, used the "short" TO bearing.
Usually, buying a complete clutch "kit" will get the correct TO bearing. The pilot "bushing" is usually a Chevy, so it won't fit. The part number for the correct pilot BEARING (Pontiacs don't use a bushing) is 7109 (Federal Mogul/National).
There are three basic "flavors" of the "cone height" for the pressure plate. Stock Ram Air cars used the "high cone", which in turn, used the "short" TO bearing.
Usually, buying a complete clutch "kit" will get the correct TO bearing. The pilot "bushing" is usually a Chevy, so it won't fit. The part number for the correct pilot BEARING (Pontiacs don't use a bushing) is 7109 (Federal Mogul/National).
Jim
Jim,,, I don't understand,,, What do you mean "Pontiacs don't use a bushing" ???... do you mean they use a roller bearing??????.... I was told by the place I bought my 4 speed tranny it's best to use a bushing???... This just keeps getting more confusing.... Do you have a suggestion as to where is the best place to buy the "Correct" setup for my car... Thanks
Not a "roller" bearing, but a "ball bearing", yes. NOT a bushing. Ignore Chevy boys... CHEVYS use a bushing... Though a needle bearing version is now more popular. The "advice" you're getting is from DIY guys.
The replacement set from Sachs is part number:
K1675-10. That's a 10.4", 10 spline, and has the perssure plate, disc and TO bearing, as well as the "wrong" bushing and an alignment tool (plastic, but works well). Get the 7109 pilot bearing if not "in" the kit.
I can always get that kit. About $200 plus freight. Look around "local" and you might find a better price.
That's the same kit I bought it had the short release bearing and two pilot bushings one chev one Pontiac. I bought the National 7109 pilot bearing and a timpken 614037 release bearing. carparts.com has them on for $120. and lists it for a chev Belair.
I have a question that relates to this old Thread so I will ask it here rather than start a new one. I am on my third clutch rebuild in 3 years and hope someone has a pontiac set-up similar to mine that may have some answers. 68 bird,modified 455 , Muncie 4 spd, I had a cheapo RAM clutch from Ames first go and it worked OK. had major engine problem second year (long story) and thought while I was at it, why not upgrade to a Centerforce Dual friction that everyone seems to rave about? Guess I did not have it set up right, or broken in properly, "abused it" or whatever, but now it is toast. Centerforce tech help says even their 550 ft/lb rated DF clutch will not be ideal for my set up (big torque,muncie & crappy rear gear- 3.08). I also found this video on you tube that makes me think I should get a new flywheel (centerforce 700600?) as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeqzZniVmrM&feature=related I have a 547975 BOP bellhousing, an unknown clutch fork with no numbers on it, that looks correct. the catalogs say to use the short 1716 centerforce throwout brg. I found that by the time I adjusted the clutch push rod enough to engage gears (especially reverse) that I had no free play. which causes premature wear and slipping... I checked the clutch pivot ball distance which is important (4.75"). freeplay is critical for all clutches but especially with a CF and those little weights. this thread says I need the long throwout bearing... has anybody used the Centerforce dual friction clutch and what throwout brg did you use? and what is the correct clutch fork for our cars and where can I get one?and opinions on new flywheels would also be gratefully acepted..
Sounds like you figured it out. No free play, clutch not fully engaged. GM bearing # was 908244. Think Delco was CT24K... Have to find old box use to cross ovr to National #614018(i think). If theres any blueing or suspected heat marks, definitly get resurfaced.
Kelly, I got a PRW flywheel from the same source you got your parts when you re-did your engine. There was pieces of ring gear metal in the box and it was pretty badly scratched when I unwrapped it. I'd stay clear of them, I had to have it resurfaced. I also have the dual friction but don't have it in the car yet.
By the way I took the 428 to the dyno last thurs. but I forgot the camera, I'll send you the results. Al.
I also had the problem with the short bearing I got with my last kit, I even had to move the lock nut on the adjusting rod rearward to get more travel and still wasn't enough. I just got a Federal-Mogul 614037 bearing which is the exact one that I originally had before the first clutch change. Did you check the run-out of the crank with tranny register bore in the bell-housing and also the rear face of the bell-housing? Mine was offset enough to have to use 21thou. off-set pins. Al
As far as clutch forks go don't buy the cheaper choice from AMES. I don't remember the P# but its the cheaper one of the 2 that they recommended. The stamped part is too thick. Your rubber boot won fit over it and it appears to bottom out against firewall when engaging clutch. Have to check if its fully engaged or not. Got too mad at it to check after the install. Haven't decided if I'm going to rip it out yet or do some grinding on it.
1968 Firebird 400, 5speed. 10 year project finding its way back together.
thanks for the replies guys. I ordered the PRW flywheel this morning before i had read the posts. He has not steered me wrong so far and I asked to have the flywheel checked over before it was shipped to me. I decided to go with a different clutch this time around, a RAM 11" Powergrip. after a LOT of reading on the net over the last two days I chose it because I wanted a clutch that grabs and holds well at lower RPM and not just when the weights spin up to where they do their thing. a 462 is not a high revving beast and I am fine with a little tougher clutch foot compared to the soft centerforce pedal. the new clutch will come with a short bearing but I ordered a lakewood adjustable pivot ball to try and dial in my geometry better this time to get full engagement/disengagement and adequate free play. I had ordered one of those Ames clutch forks a couple of years ago during my build intending to use it but I found it so different from the stock one and did not fit the boot properly as you said john. i ended up cleaning up the old one and re-using it and selling the ames one at a swap meet. You can see the two clutch forks side by side about a quarter of the way down this page. http://www3.telus.net/68bird/engine_install.htm Kelly
I may have spoken too soon about the tall throw out bearing and a dual friction clutch. I installed the tranny on the engine and the fork arm sits forward more than I'd like. The part in the bell-housing is supposed to be 5-7 deg towards the block in relation to the flywheel. The dual friction must be a taller clutch than the stock replacement. I may need an adjustable ball.
Make sure you get the right pilot bearing. Apparently its a closely guarded secret that pontiac and chevy pilot bearings are different. Chevy left, pontiac right.
I took the tranny off and changed throwout bearing for the shorter one. Now the fork is not angled towards the block and it will hit the back of the opening when released all the way. It looks like I'll have to get a bearing with a length between the two. I also noticed the bearing I had in that came with the Korean clutch kit was broken in two places. The front of the groove where the arm pushes against it to release and the back of the groove where the spring rests. The original bearing looks like it's made stouter. The short bearing was not in the car for many miles.
I have a friend who has trouble similar to medhat68. After changing the clutch twice and still having release problems we took the tranny off and dialed his tranny register. It was out 30 thou. off set dowel pins fixed the drag. Pressure from the input shaft on the pilot bearing was causing the input shaft to spin when the clutch was disengaged.
The RAM powergrip clutch for Pontiac comes with a throwout bearing and I am guessing it will be a short one just as the Centerforce one recommended. I am going to play around with the geometry and the adjustable pivot ball when it get here later this week. When I bought my eagle crank Dave as SD installed the pilot bearing himself before he shipped it. It was a roller bearing as shown above and not the needle bearing. trust he knows which is right as that is what he does, build Pontiac motors for a living. What is the part number and supplier for the long throwout bearing in case I do decide I need to get one of them? the pics above of the damaged throwout bearing look like some that I saw in a website showing what happens if the spring on the clutch fork ends up in the wrong position on the throwout bearing. could that be what caused that damage? kelly
It's no wonder people drive chebbies, $44.98 later and $32.00 ferries fare and a day off, the adjustable stud is the same min. length as the stock. The 614037 release bearing is correct for geometry with a stock replacement clutch, but the center-force wont fit with long or short. I may get the correct size bearing some where. Or modify the stud.
Kelly, you may be right about the damage on the release bearing, I noticed the spring pivots on the fork arm. I was going to hammer the rivet but I'm not sure if they are supposed to move or not. Can anyone tell me if the spring on the fork arm pivots around the rivet or is it stationary/solid/tight?
Hey guys, I have a question regarding this topic since I will be doing a swap to a manual this winter. I keep hearing about a difference between the "chevy" throwout bearing vs. the "pontiac" bearing. Wouldn't whatever came with the clutch kit be correct? My thinking is that the clutch doesn't know what engine it is in, it is just bolted to a flywheel. It the input shaft on the transmissions (let's say a Muncie) is the same for a chevy or pontiac, where does the difference get accounted for? Are the bellhousings the same depth from trans mount surface to flywheel surface? If not the input shaft length would have to be accomodated somewhere, would the pilot bearing (bushing)be recesssed more form the flywheel surface on one vs. the other? Just trying to understand what might be different. Any insight would be appreciated.
I know that washing and waxing my car with the present condtion of my paint is like polishing a turd.....but it's my turd and I want it polished!
I believe that it's happening, just trying to figure out why. From your description of not being able to adjust the clutch makes me believe it has more to do with the geometry of the clutch fork and where it's pivot point and length are vs the chevy. Can anyone confirm?
I know that washing and waxing my car with the present condtion of my paint is like polishing a turd.....but it's my turd and I want it polished!
I talked to techs at both centerforce and RAM and they both have no idea about whether pontiacs use the long or short throwout bearing. both of them say their clutches should use the short bearings. I originally had a RAM "factory style" clutch I bought years ago thru AMEs and it worked pretyy good. I did not do much research or measuring, just put it together and it worked. when I did a rebuild I went with what I thought was the better CF dual friction, spinning weights thing and thats when I seemed to lose my proper free play as well as proper release. I read everything I could find on the net with google searches and there is no definitive answer that I can find. please let me know if you find one. I am going with a RAM power grip this time around and a new flywheel. i have the long and the short bearings, and an adjustable pivot ball. I will experiment until I find what works. will take pics and post back here when i get something that does. all that means though is it worked for me. I think there are several variables in each set up like clutch fork, clutch, flywheel thickness remaining, throwout bearing, zbar, linkage, bellhousing etc.
Finally got the 428 in and checked the clutch geometry with the centerforce dual friction. I used an adjustable pivot stud out 3/16 from the stock length and a n1488 release bearing. The clutch release fork is about 10 deg angled to the flywheel when it's engaged and about 10 back when it's released. [The part inside the bell-housing] The clutch has an air gap of .066" when released, they call for .030" to .085". And have the required free play at the top of the pedal travel. The longer release bearing worked with the stock clutch but this is how I had to go with the D/F clutch. I hope it works as well when it's running. And I also hope the info is useful for anyone else going with a centerforce clutch
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