So here's my issue... I bought my '67 bird for $6,500 last week and it's a rust bucket. Much worse than I thought. The subframe mounts are even rusted out! The car is ready to snap in half. It's an original low output 326 completely overhauled and original 4 speed car. I love the car but I'm stuck as I'd never be able to get my money back... I'm looking at a solid rolling chassis '67 for $1,500. Was thinking that I could canabalize the two... Thoughts everybody? Want the cheapest most effective route. No I'd never afford a solid original 4 speedbird. I know what these cars go for so please don't suggest that :-/

Subframe mounts are a minor repair, I replaced mine and it looks good as new

Or replace the entire subframe with used or a new reproduction.

So you are thinking about parting the rust bucket and building up the roller?

Is the roller a factory 4-speed also?

What other rust issues does the bucket have?

If more than just mounts need replaced then 1500 is cheap, I spent that on repop body panels for mine, if the new one needs panels then you are not gaining anything,

No my bird is toast... I would basically have to piece a new car together as everything is unsalvageable... Yes the rolling chassis that I'm going to look at tomorrow is apparently solid except for minor pitting around the rear passenger's side wheel well and driver's side rear floorpan. No it's not a 4 speed shell... How'll this seriously impact my cars overall originality? I mean who'll know?

Not to sound like an a$$ but did you inspect this car before shelling out that kinda money for what is going to be a parts car? I've bought quite a few of these and with pics alone can tell if they are salvageable.
I bought a 69 400 4-sp car and it was nothing but a rust bucket but for the $500 I got a complete numbers matching drivetrain.
$6500 should get you a daily driver in decent condition. I hope it all turns out for you

Are you considering transferring the VIN and Body Tag from the rust bucket to the shell? Or just converting the shell from an auto to a manual car?

I'd hope not, it's not like its a rare valuable find that's going to be worth a ton of money, it's just another auto. Car being converted.

Unfortuneatly I trusted somebody to inspect it. Ultimately my fault I know.Yes I plan on swapping the tags and cutting a hole for my 4 speed.

Tag swapping is illegal in some states, and why do it unless no title? I bought a car with swapped vin and had to go through highway patrol and court to straighten it out. If you sell it and next owner has those problems you may be liable.

There are 7 hidden vins and partials, they showed me two, all this according to patrol inspector. Mine was obvious it had a coupe vin on a vert. That set off bells.

Was the original rusty basket case a more rare car than the shell? You mentioned a 326 engine - not exactly really rare or desirable.

Bottom line: I am confused why the VIN and tag info from the 1st would be "worth" the effort and (legal) hassle to transfer to the 2nd shell. Just because the 1st was a factory 4-speed?

I looked at the donor shell yesterday and it's in beautiful condition. My shell would cost a fortune to restore. I saw the VIN stamping on the firewall... Where're the other 6? Also how would you go about legally swapping cabs?

I have two highway patrol nephews and they won't tell me where there all at, go with the one you found

Your in a gray area trying to swap vins, if that's what you really think you have to do you better contact. DMV, if it's foun at a check station they may impound the car

I frankly don't believe there are that many Vins or partial Vins on these cars. I believe you'll find 2 on the body, one on the engine, and one on the trans. And I don't believe police officers are anywhere close to being the experts on this topic. There are so many cars of so many eras and origins with so many varying VIN locations...

Here is a nice photo breakdown & explanation of where they are found on 1st gen Camaros, and how to ID them. FGF's will basically be the same:
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#PartialVIN

You'll also find that the states vary widely on how easy/difficult it is to get an assigned vin or swap a vin. In Indiana I've applied for VIN's several times and had absolutely no problem or hassle getting assigned DMV vins and titles for several vehicles. I have obtained assigned VINS (because I didn't actually have a VIN to swap) on a boat, a trailer, 2 motorcycles, and 3 different cars. And I've also dealt with lost/misplaced titles twice on cars personally (and about 15 times a year professionally as a claim adjuster who totals cars often and disposes salvage) and I have had no problems getting good replacement titles with the original VIN in exactly 100% of circumstances. But in every circumstance it involved a bit of a process. First get an app from BMV, then having police out to the vehicle (or you bring it to them) to inspect the vehicle you want to title...they look for ID markings and run them thru a database to confirm current ownership and/or stolen status, then the cop signs off on it, and then the DMV confirmed or gave me a valid and/or assigned VIN in assigned for that police verified app. If it already had a VIN, process over...title comes in the mail. But for the assigned VIN vehicles the DMV first provided me specific instructions of where I should stamp/engrave the vehicle with the VIN they provided, then the police had to come back out and inspect AGAIN to make sure I applied the VIN in the correct size/location/method per BMV instructions, and then I sent in the final form to DMV and a title showed up in the mail a week or two later and I was legally the owner and on my way to get them licensed for the road/water. Obviously these assigned situations were generic VINS, and from a value perspective this is something to consider. But you might not need an assigned VIN because you already have vins on 2 cars. You might need nothing more than a VIN verfication and theft database search to get a replacement title for the shell you're buying.

I haven't heard this asked yet, but does this beautiful shell you're looking at come with a title? This should be your #1 question as it solves EVERYTHING. If the answer is no, HUGE red flag...ask owner why not, and then verify their story with police/DMV prior to your purchase. If it can't be verified, walk away because you might be buying a body shell from someone who is not the legal owner. If it has a VIN and simply a lost/unknown location of title, you can probably get a replacement title for the shell and avoid the whole VIN swap easier than you think, but you MUST run a VIN check on it before you buy to see who, if anyone, is the current titled owner of the body you're buying. Somebody is, and hopefully it's the person you're buying from. If not, you will need to find the titled owner and try to get signatures and/or death certificates for that person. This complicates things, but again I've gone down that road and if it's not a stolen vehicle it has always worked out for me in the end also on the salvage side of my career.

Getting the valid title for your replacement shell somehow/some way protects you from buying a stolen shell, and the seller from selling a stolen shell. If you can get a title from the current owner, or apply for a replacement for the lost title for that body, then there is no need to swap vins and this whole discussion is moot.

So regardless of what method you use to title this car and move/leave VINS, the only true resource you're going to really have on this whole topic is the DMV in Oregon...not anyone on this site unless someone here who lives in Oregon has done what you're talking about doing. They're the true experts on titling issues. Contact them, explain your situation, and get their written procedure and forms/applications prior to buying this body. This will answer all your questions.

If everybody knew where they were all at then they wouldn't be hidden, that's why even my family members, one a Kansas HP and one a MO HP didn't tell me.

Unless your trying to do something you know is wrong then the legal route is the best route, call DMV or your highway patrol office and ask them, the next buyer may be the one to pay the price for what you do. I've seen stories on the news where they find someone's stolen car decades later so yes they do check vins on these old cars,

Regarding the number of hidden vins...I still only say maybe. But what I struggle with most on that claim is the HUGE and constantly growing number of the general public and resto shops who have torn these vehicles all the way down to every last spot weld...with great care and effort at documenting and duplicating every factory made mark. Why haven't we/they run across them at some point and photod/asked about/duplicated them during concourse restos? Also my career has taken me thru several NICB (National Insurance Crime Bureau) stolen vehicle investigative classes alongside police officers, covering typical "hidden" or extra vin locations, etc...they vary so much. Today's vehicles have a vin sticker on almost every single panel. But not back in the 60's. And the stamped ones are usually not all that "hidden" because a police officer/investigator isn't gonna drill out spot welds or pull out a drivetrain just to find a vin.

They might be 100% right. I just feel I have good reason to question it, particularly on vintage cars.

I agree 100% this process MUST start with the DMV, and I wouldn't buy this shell without full understanding of the state's process and current title status of the shell.

For starters, you have not identified just what is rusted out. Frame mounts on most of our cars are toast by now. Not difficult to fix. You will not know the full extent of the rust problems until you disassemble the car. Typically you can expect rust damage at the lower portion of the front fenders, lower front on the doors lower rear quarters and wheel wheels, floor pans and possibly the lower cowls.

It's hard to believe the rolling shell for $1500 has no rust issues.


I would not screw around with the VIN's. Document what you have done and take off the VIN of the donar car and put it in with your doc on the restored car. It's going to look better to be transparent with what your doing than trying to hide it. You could be risking loosing your car and/or fines or worse.

IMO

BTW, creating an ID in this forum which looks like a first and last name, and then ask about how to do something that is unlawful in at least some states is not a good start. When you click Submit it's on the internet FOREVER.

It's hard to believe the rolling shell for $1500 has no rust issues.

IMO

BTW, creating an ID in this forum which looks like a first and last name, and then ask about how to do something that is unlawful in at least some states is not a good start. When you click Submit it's on the internet FOREVER. [/quote]

Excellent point on both

I have a 69 400 4-sp car and with the chrome scoops, green on green. I always wondered if it wasn't a Comanche, but it was rusted beyond any means of restoration and key parts removed but I never considered swapping tags to another car to make it something it wasn't

>Why haven't we/they run across them at some point and photod/asked about/duplicated them during concourse restos?<

I cannot answer the question because it requires the operative of someone else’s brain.

As for a concourse resto, I have never seen a concourse restoration because all of them are them are constructed incorrectly. I’m not thinking I know, and I’m not stating my opinion. I’m posting true-test, photo-documentation how these cars were built, so it’s not my fault that a concourse-built car, exactly how the factory built it, doesn’t match someone’s opinion of how they think the car should be built.

Look at the picture I posted at the “where’s the vin #” post, my up-skirt shot. Notice the shims/spacers just above the two spot welds. The car is covered with these shims/spacers, and they vary in thickness depending on application. I pulled a couple more photos and erased arrows to reference the shim locations.

If someone wants to play the concourse-resto game when it comes to getting the paint just so, notice the triangle of orange in the first picture. That’s where the car was was sitting in the jig when they painted the undercarriage, likewise for the other side. Every concourse-resto looks like Johnny’s polystyrene model car. Show me just one car whereby the builder assembled the chassis, exactly the way the factory did.

As for numbers, they’ll let little Johnny take a crayon and scribble something on the car that never came on the car, claiming it’s attention to detail. But they don’t play the number games, when the numbers slap you in the face. There are more, that are obsure, but the trunk and gutter stamps slap you in the face. What about the crimped metal on the quarter where it meets the filler panel?

Concourse-restos don’t include in-your-face numbers, something that would be easy to replicate. If nobody on the planet concerns themselves with the more than obvious details, why would they concern himself with documenting/photographing/replicating something like this?

What is it? It’s a secret! Spend some time looking closely, and see if you can figure it out. I will say it’s under the car, it’s covered with factory paint, and the depressed area inside of the car was filled, then painted at the factory. Some photos were cropped; otherwise, one could determine the location. The scribble was because I couldn’t get that one to downsize.

Amervo, great pics and comments. Thanks for sharing what you've found. I agree entirely on your comments about "concourse." Absolutely none of them are true representations of what actually came from the factory. And in my mind the definition of "concourse" is simply over-restored, and I am not a fan of that particular hobby at all. I just mentioned it because those are people who tend to explore every square inch of the car and document things relatively carefully, and I therefore assumed such people would at some point find multiple vins in various locations if they existed. Of course you know what assuming always gets ya...

As for the numbers in question, and in your photos. Are these all off of the same car? I presume yes. If yes, do you believe/know these to be partial VINs, which is the primary discussion at hand here for identifying a body? Or do you believe/know they are just stamped part numbers or other identifying numbers that were stamped in...patent or Fisher numbers...put there possibly even prior to the car receiving a VIN from GM?

I ask because there is no apparent consistency. Your cowl shot in the other VIN thread shows what I believe to maybe be 9L109730 (but it's upsidedown and a little blurry so I might have an error in there.) And your shots above seem to show an upside-down "46" and right-side-up "2" in one shot, and a "TA" and a "47" in another shot.

So with every digit seemingly different, I don't see correlation between these with regards to a VIN confirmation, unless there's a decoder somewhere that cross-references.

And as for your secret photos in the post above I haven't the foggiest...can't read it and have no idea where it's taken from. Maybe bottom of a frame rail with an ID plate attached to it, but with no size reference it's hard to tell...heck maybe it's an accident? A piece of random debris or a worker's trinket that got trapped in your car during assembly LOL...

Very curious what that is, though, and looking forward to the answer should you choose to share it!

The TA is a secret number that says the car is really a T/A in disguise :)&#61514;

Onward!

The stamps in the trunk have no relation to secret vin numbers. I used them as an example of why no one addresses secret vin numbers. The point I was trying to make:

If no one takes a $5 harbor freight stamp kit, and spends 15 seconds stamping numbers everyone can see, no one is going to worry about duplicating numbers no one can see.

The second picture set is ONE secret vin number; the stamped side is filled and painted. I choose not to disclose the location because I’m posting in the public domain, and discussing the location creates a conflict of interest.

Forget the first set of pictures. Look at the second set of pictures, one secret number, and 730 the last three digits of my car’s vin number.

You’re looking at the back side of the stamp, with the numbers right-side-up, and the last three numbers are 730

Start at the right side of the picture:
the far right bulge is the 0
the center bulge is the 3
the left bulge is the 7

The second picture works best for the limited visibility. As you play with the zoon, but not full zoon, there is a point when you can see the left bulge is a 7. Then again, perhaps it’s because I have looked at numerous times throughout the years and with different light sources and angles.

Also, in the second and fourth picture, if you look closely, you can see 7 distortions, the build plant, and 6 digit vin number.

The first 4 digits were stamped with a master stamp, allowing 1000 cars to have the last three digits hand stamped without changing the master stamp. Notice that the last 3 are over-stamped.

They are intentionally over-stamped because it allows a non-invasive inspection of the number. An inspector, who suspects a secret vin number, files some metal off the top of the bulges, then hammers it lightly. The metal molecules shift up into the void of the stamp, and the last 3 numbers become visible, without punching through the metal.

The reason for varying the locations: you cannot take two bodies, chop them up, and make one car without it ‘wearing’ a secret vin from the other car. If the inspector is working on the grounds of reasonable suspicion that the car has a splice from a stolen car, the three hot numbers, uncovered by the non-invasive inspection, create enough probable cause to dismantle the car, most likely requiring a search warrant, and removing the filler in the vin, exposing the complete vin number.

Sidebar: it would be interesting to see how anomalies play into the game. For instance, pmd’s car would be interesting.

I would also like to mention that the information come from my professional automotive experience.

I was a certified GM & Lexus technician at Sewell Village Cadillac, 7310 Lemmon Avenue Dallas, TX, technician # 272. I became GM certified by attending various professional classes at General Motors Training Center, 3635 S. Shiloh Rd. Garland, TX.

My job titles were: TX state vehicle inspector #135889, chassis tech, glass tech, and theft recovery specialist. During one of my theft recovery training classes at the GM Training Center, we glazed over secret vin numbers, including how to read one. We didn’t go into how many or where they were because it was confidential information. Even though we would never ‘read’ secret vin numbers, the instructor explained the inspection process as trivia. The conflict of interest is the conflict with my personal integrity.

When I read something on the internet, I like to see an indication that the information came from a credible information source. I wasn’t allowed to take my GM and Lexus certificates with me because ‘my certification’ was the dealership’s property so, technically, I’m not GM certified. But I do have an honor’s award, given to technicians who rise above the rest. (If it were a lottery, the odds were 823 to 1 at receiving the monthly award.) It’s not certification, but it shows some type of professional technical relationship with GM.

I'm only buying the shell for the sheet metal.. My current shell is about as bad as they come... I'd rather original sheet metal than aftermarket and the donor shell really is beautiful. I'd say 90%! Hard to completely tell until youdip it but still worlds apart from mine...

Don't know about the rest of you, but I found Merv's info totally fascinating. I remember seeing in my owner's literature that Ford had a full VIN and bar code placed on every major body part of my 1988 Mustang and I saw a couple of them.

No wonder we occasionally read about "the authorities" returning a long stolen muscle car to the rightful owner after some 20 or 30 years.

I also think it's safe to say that those who contemplate switching out the VIN and Body tags - you have been warned!

I agree. Pretty cool, and I certainly got an education from it. Thanks, Amervo.

And I stand fully corrected despite my earlier stated beliefs. Hidden vin plates obviously exist on these FGF's.

I do have to wonder if the concept is a little bit obsolete at this point in time though, given that these cars can be practically rebuilt out of catalogs these days with repro parts. I know Amervo didn't share the location of this one and that's cool, but presumably it is attached to a part that might/could be replaced at some point during one of today's massive cut-em-apart and rebuild 'em projects. For example if a stamp is attached to a firewall, or frame rail, or floor bracket, or torque box, or wherever...and someone hacks off and replaces that entire part, the stamp has now been hacked off and sent to the recycler, lost forever. Not to mention the whole Dynacorn body thing again...and the varying title/vin laws among the states. There's obviously nothing illegal about hacking a rusted/wrecked part off your own car and welding on a replacement you purchase from a catalog. Or buying a used body section from a salvage yard and grafting it onto yours, which might result in mixed numbers. Not to mention my NICB training classes which didn't mention these things to the very people they are training to help look for such red flags and clues. Which I think might possibly be because such secrets are slowly "dying" as those who have the knowledge such as Amervo continue to retire and leave the industry. Given all these variables, it just seems to me that the passage of time may start to erase the effectiveness and applicability of vintage anti-theft measures such as this on our cars that are approaching 50 years old.

And if such things are still a great hush-hush secret, it doesn't really benefit potential buyers such as our friend Matt Good here who is simply trying to verify his own potential purchase as legitimate and do the right thing to rebuild his car.

No question it certainly is a very effective measure to help authorities verify a car, or certain parts of a car, if recovered following a theft and possible strip job, and if they have the knowledge to find them. And most certainly that's the point of them. And it's something most thieves would never look for or bother to remove if they happened to see it.

Crazecars I appreciate your realism and knowledge! You absolutely nailed it in your previous post! I own a '64 Impala SS that has about 12 aftermarket sheetmetal replacements fabbed on. ... I guess that it's no longer "numbers matching" ... Also I'll see about turning my clean title into "salveged" Haha