Hey Folks

I've been Firebird hunting for four years and have an opportunity to purchase a CA black plate, born with engine and drive train (never rebuilt), original carb, original (little rough) interior, original paint (faded) 48K documented mi, PHS documented Firebird 400 4 spd with all the original docs (real bill of sale broadcast sheet, protecto plate manuals,titles from previous owners, etc. not PHS reproduced stuff). I took a pass on it a couple years ago because schedules didn't line up with the previous owner but always regretted seeing it go. Now it is available to me from the current owner and I definitely am considering.

I know, pics are speak a 1,000 words but I am not going to show it until it lands in the garage. This one has absolutely 0 rust as in "original paint never lies" or they're only original once. I'm I'm looking for opinions on price for driver quality, not trailer queens.

Price is in the mid-upper teens

Thanks!

In my opinion it sounds about right compared to what I have seen selling. It's hard to put a price on a car that you really want. But if everything is all original and documented and true.

Most of us don't get another chance at one that we let slip away before.
My suggestion is to make a reasonable offer remembering that the seller is in charge. Don't try to low-ball him and pi$$ him off.
It sounds like a good solid car with the right options.
If he doesn't budge on his price then you have a decision to make.
When I bought my '69 I felt that it was over priced a little but it was too good to pass up. Never regretted buying it.
Good luck.

Thanks for your thoughts Folks:

We've basicly established a price the other night (what he paid two years ago). He just wants out from under it and fears that the longer he has it, the more tempted he is to tear into it and restore. This is one of those cars that needs to be maintained the way it is. The beauty marks and sun-faded paint add to this 68 400's alure. Now it's just a matter of getting the finances in line. Will hopefully be landing in the garage by the end of the month.

Kevin-

Hi Folks:

Well the deposit has been accepted and I will be heading out to get the 68 FB 400 Survivor after the Memorial Day holiday weekend. The way I see it, owning a survivor is the best way to have a collector car; you have to maintain them but you don't have the expense of making them better than they were coming of the line back in the day. Way too many trailer queens out there today IMHO.

This may not a rare bird by its numbers but it is a born with everything including drive train and all sheet metal and is a documented 40K mi car.

It should be fun to show up at the local shows or go for that "ice cream" to justify driving it every now and then.

Thanks for your comments!

Kevin- Pics are attached in the Photobucket link. http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx207/kvbugel/

I look forward to the pics!

4-speed floor w/Hurst shifter.. Nice! Sticks RULE!

Looks sweet. Jealous of the 4 spd.

Nice looking survivor. It's always cool to find them like this. Keep it in good shape and enjoy it. It's only original once.

Where in WI are you?

Where did you find the 'bird?

Sweet! Uncommon color too.

I'm in Brookfield, WI (western Milwaukee suburbs).

The 68 is a true survivor black-plate car that was purchased by a collector in Indiana. It was presented on Supercar Registry for purchase by the members around the fall of 2009 and it got my attention. It hit eBay after schedules did not connect, thus the second time around.

I managed to locate the car (another story) make contact with the current owner. I'll provide more when its in the garage.

Thanks for the interest. If there is any significant information that can bee gleened from the FB with out removing too much patina (crayon markings, etc.) I'd be happy to pass them along. As to tehe color code, its "N" code as in Flambeau Burgundy. Also, those in WI, keep in touch.

Cheers,

Kevin-

Hi Kevin,

I like your car. I have a burgundy coupe I purchased back in '80.

After looking at the pictures I find it hard to believe it's a 40k survivor. Body panels etc. look great but foot pedal wear, front seat wear and paint condition on engine make me wonder if the OD went around once already. I would still buy the car for what he is asking but I would restore the car. It's only a survivor if people believe it is.

Have a good look at Jarett's 68 coupe survivor.

A survivor should look like it was just taken out of a time capsule.

IMO

Just trying to keep it real!

Jarett, that is a fantastic car and it must be a struggle not to put more miles on it. The up-side is they must be driven or used every now and then or things start to go downhill.
A truely great representation.

Gus68, I don't have the paperwork from the car nor have I actually seen it in person but the car has a paper trail that documents the mileage; but I will scrutinize closely. The California sun is a real b!tch on paint and interiors but your points are well taken.

I am traveling with a friend to retrieve the car the after Memorial Day weekend. He is a mopar guy and has a 1970 Superbird that he brought back to life from the Texas "sun" in the early 1980s; not familar with Pontiacs, but should be a good sounding board for condition.

I'll share more when I know more. Have a great holiday!

Kevin-

Thanks. I'm really enjoying it. Unfortunately we have not had a tonne of great weather since buying it, but I drive it as often as possible. Have put about 1,000 miles on it since getting it. I'm in the thinking that no matter how much sunny weather I drive it in, it's still going to have low mileage. Might as well just enjoy it and keep it nice.

I really like it. An original 4-speed is hard to find.

So what happened Kevin? Did everything workout? Tell us more...

Hey Folks:

Sorry about the delay. Operation "California Sun-dried Raisin Recovery" is accomplished. I made the trip this weekend (Friday and Saturday) with a mopar collector friend (he has a 1970 Superbird and some other mentionables) and told him to kick me in the shin if the 68 was a pass. My shins are in tact and I am extremely pleased.

I looked back in my email history and I was actually negotiating with the second owner/collector in the summer of 2009 so this has been a three year quest for this car. The person I purchased this piece from (third collector/owner) run's a repair and restoration shop in Ohio and he knew this car should not be restored (it was getting too hard for him to resist) He is a Buick GS guy in the end. I saw the front clip of the 68 in an auction he was running on ebay for another car and was able to connect. Simply amazing that this came to this conclusion.

The 68 FB 400 hasn't been on the road/registered since 1996/97 (+/- 16 years) and the original title "in hand" and 68 black plate #s correlate to tell me that this was the original owner. The title shows 46,404 actual miles in 2005. Based on the previous, I will be the second documented owner in the paper trail. The prior two owners were collectors and never registered the piece and stored it in climate controled shops in the Midwest which have kept it spotless regarding corrosion.

The California sun was not kind this car but it is super tight with regards to shifting and steerage and 100% (no exageration) rust free with perfect sheetmetal all around and beneath the car, its a body mans....we'll say big grin. The engine and drive train do not appear to have been ever removed and are #'s matching from the carb to the rear axle with all the original paperwork (yes original, not PHS reproduction) is pretty cool.

The od shows 48K plus a little and the title shows 46,404 so the last two collectors drove it a little which is actually good for the car IMHO. My intentions are to spend the next 3 to 5 years showing the car "as is" and will assess if it needs to havs some restoration after that time. I'll post some pics of the recovery later this week.
BTW and no offence to the ILL folk but Chicago traffic really sucks with a car-in-tow, no matter how you approach it.

Kevin Bugel
Brookfield, WI

Here is the original photobucket with some new shots on the end. I have to work on the boat project tonight.

Kevin-

http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx207/kvbugel/

Very nice car.I did notice a few things, and they are original...you have a 1968 Ohio built car that has a deluxe interior with NO bird emblem on the glove box, I have owned several CA built cars that were the same but here is one from Ohio.....Also the windshield washer sqirter on the drivers side is placed more in the middle on the cowl vs the drivers side, I also had one car like that.....good luck with the car.

Glad you got it home safe. Hope you enjoy it as much as the rest of us enjoy ours!

Very nice! Congratulations, that is quite a find. Great back story on it too.

Hi Folks:

Attached is the eBay auction that landed the 1968 FB 400 in my garage. Truely bird hunting IMO. If you check out pics 4 and 5, you will see the black Cali plate on the upper liftrack.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=170834083475&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

I have had to change the water pump gasket and a small soft line between the tank and fuel port and have not had it on the road yet which is a little bit frustrating. Also need a tank sender unit and am looking for options. The gas gauge reads 3:00 which based on reading other posts is the sending unit. Tank is in the garage ready for sending unit install.

Will register this week and hopefully be out next weekend, weather providing. Geoff, maybe this thread needs to be moved to another category on the Site at your discretion as it does not relate to the "Fore Sale" designation from here on.

Kevin-

A bit of an update:

Spent a bit of time with the bird last weekend to purge the coolant issues and this is more than anticipated. I've been trying to purge the "oxidation" or "rust" out of the block's water jacket and I am wondering if I am fighting a battle that I will not win. The 68 Bird has sat for +16 years. Any thoughts or best options are appreciated,

KTB

Regarding my previous post:

The battle with the block oxidation is over. I assume that the reason that it got so bad was due to the prior owners not changing out the coolant.

If ethylene glycol is not changed out every 2 yrs, it becomes acidic and is basically the facilitator for electron exchange for all the incompatible metals that it comes in contact with (copper with the radiator, copper heat exchanger, and cast iron block and heads; copper and iron love to give up electrons).

All stable now. I also errored on the 06/04/2012 comment about mileage. The car had 46,400 in 2005 and had 46,600 mi when received which also explains the issues that came into play to get it on the road again, 200 mi in 16 years is not going to keep the critical gaskets saturated; have a rear main drip to contend with at some point but thats what cardboard is fore for now.

Storage is coming in fast this year but enjoy whats left of the summer,

Kevin-

Just a bit of re-kindling to this thread the 68 coupe didn't realize it eclipsed +5000 hits. Had a nice cruise in at the end of this season on Oct. 19th in Lake Geneva, WI with some great guys south of the boarder. Attached a link to the lineup. Also included is a link to an article that the 1968 was published in to document the one-off waulnut shifter knob for GTOs.

http://midwestfirebirds.org/?p=308#more-308

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5057552#post5057552

Happy Turkey Day,

Kevin-

Kevin, thanks for the update. I saw the article as I was doing some research to find out what the original walnut knob is for a 67 4-speed. I still don't know.

Can't help you on your 67 but the paperwork and patina for the 68 shifter knob suggest that the GTO crown shifter knob was used as a firebird option as well. Go figure.

Kevin-

It's always a great feeling getting these out of the garage and back on the road.