So, as I said in the ramblings forum, I'm back and ready to get my car finished. Here's a recap of my odyssey with my 68 convertible:

I got home from Iraq in May 2012. My wife and I were going to take the car for our long cruise. We ended up taking the SUV instead. So, I replaced the front brakes on the car with disc brakes. I replaced the front seats with seats from a 2000 Firebird, but they need recovering. My goal was to do paint/body, and then do drivetrain.

Fast-forward. I ended up going back overseas to Afghanistan. I've been here since October 2012, with a small medical hiatus in the spring of 2013 (kidney stones). The car has had it's entire body redone; new quarters, new trunk, new doors, stripped, painted..getting new top. Subframe connectors, new subframe bushings, new gas tank..new wheel wells, new radiator support...now it's time for drivetrain.

So, I've toyed with a TH200-4R vs a 4L60. The car currently has a TH400 in it. I've been looking at a Monster transmission. The car is not going to be drag-raced; it's "eventually" going to be my daily driver (except snow or rain if it can be helped). Not looking to be unrealistic, but I'd like to get mayb 20mpg. I think that is doable. The motor is going to be redone eventually (when I get home), 400hp range. But it will be EFI...another topic all together. The car probably gets 12-13 currently. To give it 50% increase will put it into 18-19 mpg range. The carb is probably a little big for the 400 motor. So, I think EFI tuned to the motor, and a decent OD transmission, should be easy 20mpg car.

Just which OD trans? If I go the 200-4R route, it's direct bolt up to a poncho motor. I think the driveshaft remains the same length, just the yoke may need to change. I think I can use the TH400 crossmember. Or, go for the 4L60, and have to change some things, but I think you get a tad more reduction in the gearing.

Thoughts/opinions on the transmission options, and any links to sites that have cross members and swap parts?

2004R has better gearing in it! I put a 2004R in my 69 with a 400 and it is a direct fit for the most part and you can use your same shift linkage (assumming you have consol shift) But you will need to get over drive conversion kit from SHIFTWORKS and you will also have to remove your Neutral safety Rod that hooks to your tranny and runs up to your steering column and get a NSS that mounts to the shifter in the console from shiftworks. Yes, you should be able to use the TH400 crossmember. I didnt because I had some problems and ended up buying a different one to work. Also, if you have a driveshaft from the TH400, you will have to cut it down slightly, the ones for the TH350 should fit from what I have read. My tranny coolent lines from my TH400 would not work on my 2004R, without a lot of bending and such, so I went with AN6 flexable steelbraided line and used an external cooler, which is recommended, which I would highly suggest that you do. If you are looking to buy a tranny thats already set up, a lot of companies sell them and beefed up slightly to highly beefed up to handle the power, and if your going to build that 400 up to around 400HP, then you will need at least a stage 2, 2004R. I love the 2004R in my car, and I have a 8.5 rearend in it with 3.73 gears and with the TH400 in it I was screaming at 55MPH, now it purrs down the road! Got mine through Gearstar.

With all the exhaustive research I did on the subject, I came down to only one builder.

http://www.jakesperformance.com/

I was about to pull the trigger on the 200-r4 my self and ended up buying another car instead.

Tons of post in the archives on the PY site. Jake has chimed in there in the past. Reading up on his comments he know every weakness in the trans and can give you the best bang for the buck approach. He also had some tricks that he came up with him self that no one else does. He also mentions that he has had to rebuild "other" big name builders tranny's when they didn't hold up.

Here are some notes that I have gathered on the subject (Sorry it very long):

Parts you should consider mandatory in the build are:
hardened stator support
hardened pump vane rings
extra clutch in the 4th pack (must machine housing .080 to make space for extra clutch)
one piece teflon shaft seals
GN size or larger servo
.500 or .570 and .400 boost valves
Shift kit (not hurst or b&m)
hardened sun shell (standard on 87 and up)
billet forward drum-I seriously doubt the stocker will hold for long in a heavy, torquey car
Raybestos Blue or Alto Red Eagle directs
Oversized Alto Red Eagle band
Rollerised low/rev housing to reduce parasitic loss and heat
deep trans pan + bottom feeding filter (I made my own deep pan out of two stockers and my own bottom feeding sump using copper pipe and a th200 filter)

Mods required:
Dual feeding the directs
Enlarging pump passages
.060 hole in direct drum

The 200 in my Goat has been in service for the past 15 years. It now has all of the billet internals from Bruce at PTS, but the car went 11.50s for years with all of the basic upgrades and stock hard parts.
Things like the hardened stator support, proper pump clearances and internals, wide Alto band, and billet servo are all a must. The biggest thing I did to improve the trans was the deep pan and the botom feed 700-r4 filter.
I could launch the car on the STREET hard enough to slosh the fluid away from the stock filter and the line pressure would drop in HALF! It would happen midway through low gear and during 1-2 shift. I had gone through several intermediate bands because they were taking such a beating. The line pressure gauge was the savior on this deal.
The deep Art Carr pan and filter combo totally eliminated the pressure drop, and I have not hurt another band since.

I really love my 200.

I disagree with Cliff.
In my experience, and Cliff stated it, you MUST know the hydraulics on these units to build one to hold up. A stock one with a deep pan, stock GN servo, and proper VB setup will handle a mid 12 second car.

The sun shell and stators on the early cars were problematic. GM still hasn't really fixed their sun shell issue on the 4L60 series (700, 4L60E, 4L65E, 4L70E). The aftermarket has fixed the issue with the "Beast" sun shell but it's 3 times the price of the hardened sun shell for the 200-4R.

There was never any issue with the direct drum in the 200-4R. The forward drums are where the problem is at in an application over 400 HP.
The design is weak in stock form. Some have tried to weld up the area where the input shaft goes in it, so it isn't so deep, then heat treat the drum. This is OK, but the real fix is a new shaft in the drum. Only a couple of guys make this specialty drum. I use it on most of the 200-4Rs that I build, but most of the units I build are for 500+ HP.

The clutches in the direct drum of a 200-4R are the direct or 3rd gear clutches, not the 3-4 clutches like a 4L60.
They are the weakest clutch pack but can easily be modified to handle 800 HP. One of their issues is fluid starvation due to the filter design.
A deep pan setup fixes this.
The other is apply area. When using the billet drum you can make hydraulic modifications that make them bulletproof.
The 4L60 trans have the same issue with apply area, and you can't do the same mods due to the design, all you can do it increase the line pressure, which causes other problems such as increased pump wear.

The 200 isn't extremely expensive to build. The triuck is to find a builder familiar with them.

They do get to a point of diminishing returns like any other unit. I try to talk customers into a 4L80E if they are truly over 600 HP or will be. As a point of comparison, I try to talk them out of the 4L60 trans at 450-500 HP.

Neither is the trans of choice in a 8-9 second car, the 4L80E is...

A 200-4R also has the proper bolt pattern for a Pontiac which IMO makes it worth it for many applications over the adapter plate.

I warranty my units at over 600 HP without any second thoughts if they have the billet parts.

The hydraulics are easy once you know the tricks. Some of the tricks are carried over from TH400 builds...Others are specific to the 200-4R.

Anybody that has a basic understanding of hydraulics and does a small amount of research can determine why the 200 has some very strong advantages over a 4L60 in the clutch holding capacity.

It is common knowledge that the 4L60 series transmissions have issues with the 3-4 clutch pack. Even the latest greatest clutch materials haven't been a total fix for this in cars that are drag raced frequently, it is simply an apply area/clutch friction surface area issue.
UNless you have figured out a way to increase either of those beyond what everyone else is doing, you are still limited by this.
AFAIK Rossler is probably the only one who has actually increased the friction area on the clutches by doing some machining on the drum and using different frictions.

The 200 has the ability to easily increase the clamping force on the 3rd gear clutches, by over 2 times....

I can also build the 700s, 4L60E's cheaper than I can a 200-4R but I recognize their weaknesses and don't try to sell them at those power levels.

There are only about a dozen guys in the country who know the tricks to the 200-4R. If you don't use one of the good builders, you aren't going to have any luck with them...

Bowtie Overdrives isn't one of them....

At 400 HP you are borderline for the forward drum upgrade.

Other than that a 200-4R with a GN servo and deep pan with a valve body kit would work excellent.

I always upgrade them to a 3 clutch overdrive setup because it is an almost free upgrade, one extra friction ($2) and machining on the apply piston (time or $10 from my machinist, but I drop off 5-10 at a time and we already have a setup to hold it on the lathe)

My valve body mods are simple and very effective, it doesn't take much and most of it is the same as you would do to a 700-r4 or any other trans, but there are a couple of "little" things that make the difference between a successful 200-4R builder and the guy who is afraid of them.

A well built 200-4R doesn't die easily...

The stock pieces had a few issues that caused them to die fast.
The stock band wasn't big enough (same issue the early 700s had), the servo wasn't large enough (same issue as the 700...) the sun shell and stators weren't heat treated (same issue as the 700), the pump rings would break in high rpm applications (same as a 700, exactly the same parts, interchangeable), they needed larger boost valves (same as the 700, interchangeable), they didn't have the valve body calibration for performance usage (same issues as the 700).
Anybody see a trend here?

The other trait they both share is the shafts breaking off. The 700's don't really have this issue USUALLY until you get over 450 HP, or a heavy vehicle with big tires.
The 700s/4L60Es will break the input shaft at the lube holes, they will break the input drum (aluminum) where the steel input shaft comes in.
They also both share a less than ideal amount of clutch surface area (700 is actually worse here) and less than ideal amount of clutch apply area for the 3rd gear clutches on the 200, and the 3-4 clutches on the 700/4L60E.

It isn't a big deal to add extra clutches to the stack on either trans, although the 200 has proven to not really need it, and the 700/4L60Es do. More on that...
It is an easy modification on the 200-4r to "dual feed" the 3rd gear clutches. Basically a free modification, the only caveat is that when you do so, you make the shift from 2nd to 3rd gear more positive. Even when you back off the valve body calibration to soften this shift, it will break the snout off the forward drum as I posted above.
That is a particularly weak area b ecause if you look at the factory piece, the pilot hole in the front is drilled deeper than the splines on the outside. If you look at the cross sectional area between the splines and the pilot hole, it's about 3/16" thick including the splines high area. Not very thick.. So it easily snaps off as shown.
If you look at the aftermarket drum next to it, the splines have a taper to the shaft, and the hole isn't drilled past the splines, it is about half as deep, so where the splines terminate, is much stouter and the material is TOUGH. They simply don't break there anymore.

So when we dual feed the 200-4R direct clutches (which is a common mod on high performance TH350's, TH400's, etc.) it takes care of the clutches.

You have 3 ways to make a clutch pack capable of increased torque capacity.

1. Increase the pressure. This is done on most performance transmissions, and is a part of many "shift kits" or more correctly stated valve body kits.
You increase the spring tension on the pressure regulator spring and the overall transmission pressure is increased.
You increase the size of the boost valves, and the pressure under throttle is increased. You make additional modifications to the TV up/down/limit circuits to increase pressure under certain operating conditions.

2. You increase the amount of friction material surface area. Bigger clutch plates or more of them. It is usually very difficult to increase the diameter or facing of a clutch plate. You are limited by the overall diameter of the trans case, the drums that contain the clutches, etc. It IS done in some instances, but it is one of the more expensive ways to go about it.
You add friction plates. If you have a stock capacity of 6 plates, and you increase it to 7, you have increased the capacity IN THEORY. The true capacity may actually be less due to having to use thinner steels that warp easier. So the holding capacity may be higher, but the shifting capacity could be less. This is a fine line that builders have to walk and play with. Keeping the steels adequate thickness while getting as many frictions in place as possible in problematic units like the 700/4L60E.
You can get 9 frictions (two sided) in the 700-R4/4L60E drum relatively easily but a count of 7 or 8 has proven to be best for most builders.

3. You increase the apply area. This is very easy to do in some specific instances. The TH350, TH400, 4L80E, and 200-4R are these instances, specifically the 3rd gear clutch pack for all of these units.
3rd gear clutches are also used in reverse. GM designed the drum so that the piston has two seperate apply areas. One area is used for 3rd, and both are used in reverse. We modify the hydraulic circuits to use both apply areas as one in 3rd gear, called dual feeding. Very simple mod that should be done on any performance TH350, TH400, 4L80E, and any 200-4R with the billet drum. It should not be done on the 200 without the drum...
In other cases this is a very difficult method to increase clutch capacity, the 700-R4/4L60E is one. There just isn't enough room to make the apply piston a larger diameter, and it is relatively small on the 700/4L60Es.

So on the 700/4L60Es you best option to increase the capacity of the clutch pack is to go for an 8 count clutch pack IME.
Some very high end units have modifications to the drum for larger clutches. We are talking about $4000 units. (Much more than a full billet 200-4R).

There is one other way to increase the capacity, and much of it is opinion based, and that is the type of friction material that is used. Some have higher co-effiecients of friction under static or dynamic conditions. Certain clutches work better in certain applications.

These are several of the reasons why the 200-R4 does actually make a better unit in built up form. It also has a much more rigid center support (actually has 2 internally) where the 700/4L60E is longer and only has one. So the internals of the 200-4R are going to run more centered and create less stress on the bushings and parts.

All the mods that the 700 gets on a performance build are used on the 200-4R. Most of the parts are the same.
.500 boost valve, larger reverse boost valve, upgraded pressure regulator spring, hardened pump rings, 10 vane or 13 vane pump. The parts listed are interchangeable between the two units.

Then the hardened sun shell mention by Cliff. It is bulletproof and came stock on the newer units. It's $13 my cost new. As opposed to about $45 for the Beast sun shell that should be put in any 700/4L60E build.
Hardened stator is about $15 for either unit.
A good band for either unit is about $25.
A larger servo for the either in "billet" is about $80-100 depending on what brand etc. The 200-4R has ONE servo, the 700 has two seperate pieces that go in the same bore.
The 700 however CAN usually get by with just a "Corvette" servo which is a $8-9 part, and the stock 4th gear servo for many applications.

In a 450 HP application, I can build the 700/4L60Es cheaper. 98% of the time, they will live a long reliable life at this power level, even if driven hard/raced.
At over 450 HP, if the unit is actually raced and driven hard, it becomes a "maintenance item". It will have to have 3-4 clutches replaced occasionally. It will occasionally experience a hard part failure, typically an input shaft/drum.
At over 450 HP, the 200-4R with simply a billet drum and aftermarket billet servo for hard parts will provide reliable service.
If it fails before the length of time it took me to write this then I put it together wrong or it was installed wrong. As stated the TV cable must be setup right. The converter must be installed correctly, and it has to be properly assembled and calibrated. If it's over 450 HP it MUST be dual fed for the directs to live IME.
My experience with the 200-4R in my personal ride ('69 Chevelle, 427 BBC) was that being a mid 12 second car, with a stock pan, it would cavitate on the 2-3 shift because of the acceleration.
You MUST have the deep pan at faster than a 13.0, or a specially designed pickup and a "dam" installed in the case near the park linkage.

I drove my car hard with the 200-4R for 2 yrs. I used it as a testing platform to find the weak points in the 200-4R and get the hydraulics figured out. I didn't have any hard parts issues, or any clutch failures. I did heat check the directs with the stock pan but it shifted fine when I freshened it.

I just freshened a 200-4R from a GN that runs high 10's. I built it a year ago. It had a converter issue so customer brought it in for a checkout. Band still looked new, 3rd gear clutches still looked new, it had some damage from debris on the center support sealing area. The billet shaft did not even have any scoring (HARD).

I speak and do business relatively often with big name transmission guys. Chris at CKPerformance (spoke to him twice today...one of the innovators for 200-4R hard parts), one of Hughes Performance senior trans guys, John Kilgore (occasionally, Godfather of the TH400 IMO) and other noted builders in the community. I get to pick their brains, talk shop, and compare notes. They've all seen the same things.
JakeShoe


Also use the updated sun gear shell that takes the bearing instead of the plastic washer.

Good news on choosing a 1986 model, the factory had made several changes to them and by 1986 they were much tougher than earlier versions.

A standard 200-4R in 1986 would be the same unit used in the GN. The only real difference would be the shift program and servo that applies the band. They may have also used a different torque converter for the GN.

Have your 200 built with a good shift kit and GN or billet servo and it will be fine for what you are doing. Of course you have the option to make some additonal hard part upgrades during the build.....Cliff

4l60 upgrade price.
Trans-Go reprogrammer 4L60E-HD2-C WIT $139.99
Sonnax billet servo 77767K WIT 49.99
Red Eagle rebuild Kit WIT 280.00
Raybestos Z-pack RZP-001 WIT 59.99
Beast sun shell Budget Transmission 39.99
Five-pinion carrier Budget Transmission 69.99
High-intensity band Budget Transmission 24.99
ATI torque converter 708220 ATI Performance 640.99
Labor Budget Transmission 650.00
Total: $1,955.93

Found this on Hemmings.

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2006/01/01/hmn_feature9.html

The TH200-4R can be identified by its odd-shaped 16-bolt pan, which roughly resembles the state of Nevada (check your maps), and the transmission pan bolts have 13mm heads. The TH200-4R was used in GM rear-wheel-drive cars equipped with the 231 Buick, 301 Pontiac, the Oldsmobile 307, as well as the 350 gas and 350 diesel engines from 1981-'90. Many Chevrolet 267 and 305 engines also used the TH200-4R with a multi-fit bellhousing. You can look for one in any of these vehicles with those engine sizes:

1981-'88 Buick LeSabre and Electra RWD
1981 Century
1981-'87 Regal
1981-'90 Cadillac Fleetwood, Deville and Brougham
1982-'90 Chevrolet Impala and Caprice
1981-'88 Chevelle, Monte Carlo, Malibu and El Camino
1984-'87 GMC Caballero
1982-'90 Olds Delta 88, 98 and Custom Cruiser
1983-'88 Olds Cutlass 4-4-2 and Supreme
1983-'89 Pontiac Bonneville, Parisienne and Safari Wagon
1981 Pontiac Firebird with 301
1984-'87 Pontiac Grand Prix

The transmission identification is on a plate on the right side of the case towards the tailshaft. This ID tag is usually held on by one rivet. The plate will have a two- or three-letter transmission code in large letters, and then a 13- or 14-digit identification number along the bottom:

1st digit: month of production (A through M, skipping the letter "I")
2nd-3rd: production day of the month
4th: shift transmission was produced (1st-3rd shift)
5th: assembly plant (T: Three Rivers, MI; J: Windsor, Canada; W: Warren, MI)
6th-7th: decade and year
8th-9th: or 8th-10th: transmission ID code
10th-13th: or 11th-14th: transmission serial number

I know someone who had one built by a well known trans shop. But the $2500 is kind of steep for the average guy. That extra $1700 could fill the tank a few lifetimes over.

Another option is the overdrive units that "bolt on" at the tailshaft of the existing tranny. Allows you to run your robust TH-400 for instance but with the flick of a switch, you get (in essence) an bunch more gears.

Forgot the website as it's bookmarked on my computer at home.

Another option I always thought sounded good was a th400 low gear set with a 3:08 rear.

Strong tranny. Still have a low gear for 1st and 2nd and a very reasonable final drive.

I don't think $2500 is that unreasonable looking at other option out there. Look at a manual 5 speed or a 4l80E and your at about $5000.

Great posts guys.

I was thinking I had a THM350 in my 67 400 vert ... looking at some of the references above and my own photos I've discovered it's actually a TH2004R (the Nevada shaped pan).

Trouble is, only 3 gears, so I guess something isn't connected correctly. (Headlights, horn relay and parkers were wired incorrectly during resto by previous owner)

Any advice appreciated.

Are you sure about that Ausbird? http://transmissiontechnologies.com/gm-transmission-pan-shapes.aspx
You could be and you could have a linkage problem that is preventing the use of all 4 gears. Unless you are 100% for sure, I would recheck again using the link to match the pan correctly. If you are 100% for sure, disconnect the shift linkage from the tranny shift arm and cycle it through all the gears at the tranny and see if you have all those gears. If you do have 4 forward gears, then hook the shift linkage back up and adjust it. Simple stuff man.

PS, if it is 2004R, there is a company here in the States called Shiftworks that sells adapter plates for your floor shifter to give you access to all 4 gears.

They also now make a modern replica of the original '67 floor shifter that has 4 speed capability built in along with WAY less slop than the original. I am thinking about putting 1 in someday just for the slop issue. New bushings "correct" that, but it is still really inprecise.

Shiftworks '67 Firebird

Thanks for the fast response guys.... a couple of pics (of the few hundred the previous owner did) for verification and advice if there is anything special (deeper pan etc) about the tranny.

[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]

I'll further investigate over the weekend ... hopefully I can access the type and serial numbers on the right side.

I used this site ... a wealth of info: http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/General_Motors_transmissions#General_Identification

I've not looked at the site, but I'm thinking that you may have a TH300; I think that's what it was called. I actually had one. The metric pan callout is what got my attention. That looks like the TH 300 I had. Or it was a TH350"c" or metric unit. Anyway, just something to think about.

Thanks all for the replies;
I'm going to stick with the plan and do the TH200-4R. It's a direct bolt-in, some mods to the driveshaft...and I'd be golden.

I have a floor shifter, it's a Hurst floor shifter for the TH400, gated..my wife HATES it (I dont care for it myself).

So, options for that would be great. I'll go check out shiftworks, and the other site. $2000 is my "rough" budget for the trans, so I'm in the ballpark!

So,based on the recommendations, and some reading, I like Jake's transmissions. I'm going to shoot them an email and see about their Stage II transmission. I think that might be the way to go. But I need to sort out the floor shifter issue. I hate the Hurst shifter, and I'll need a new one anyway for the new trans. I like the adapters from Shiftworks; but I'd have to go to an original center console (which I dont have). I do like the aftermarket console that they have in there (some thing that you can buy aftermarket from Classic, Jegs, or those places) because it has more room, and has cup holders lol.

I put a Lokar Shifter in my console and covered up the open space with Black lexan material. Looked good. It did require a center console, which I had.

FYI - they now reproduce the center consoles for '67's in black and they are very, very nice.

No longer any reason to go with a beat-up used one except to transfer over some of the small parts (the new ones are bare). But all the small parts are also available via reproductions.

Yup Ausbird, you have a 2004R. Was thinking maybe why you dont have that forth gear is because the PO didnt put in an overdrive shifter conversion kit from SHIFTWORKS and your shifter still has the original 3 speed detent which would only give you 3 forward drive gears. There is a link on that page that shows you the difference in the detents for a 3 and overdrive speed tranny and you should be able to tell by looking at your shifter guts if you have it or not. Unless you have that overdrive detent, you will never be able to manually shift all the forward gears. Yes, you will have all the gears if you leave it in overdrive, but not by manually using the shifter. I put on on my shifter and it took me all of like 20 mins, very easy to do.

Sorry Ausbird, I gave you the link for the 68 and up conversion in the prior post, you have a 67 so you need this page ShiftWorks 67 overdrive shifter conversion . It's located just slightly below the middle of the page.

Norm, the 2004R pans have that "METRIC" stamped into the pans. It is for sure a 2004R Ausbird has.

I got a nice Stage II from Chris at CK Performance after much research. My car is roughly 450 hp, several trips down the track, cruising, performed flawlessly. Great guy to talk to. There are few out there as good, I went CK based on research and they have done a lot GN stuff...

Ordy and Salmon, car looks like it has been fully setup for 4 speeds.... I've found it has a Bowler Lockup Control Module on the tranny and it looks to have a 4 Speed Overdrive kit... the shift lever input at the transmission end has Shiftworks stamped on it and the shift indicator has the D with a square around it.

Now that I know it has the overdrive capability I'll have a play with the shifter next time I drive it to see if the mechanical linkage is out of adjustment.

This explains why I always thought it needed a different diff ratio, lol.

AusBird, sounds like you got it narrowed down now to the linkage or cable. Good luck on the adjustment, should be easy though!

I opted to rebuild a junkyard 200-4R when I did mine using a rebuild kit off of ebay (oregonperformancetransmission, iirc). Of course it is an otherwise stock OHC Sprint car, so I didn't need to worry about beating on it too severely.

Anyway, the fluid lines and driveshaft did not have to change at all for me. This car came with the ST-300 and later had a TH-350, all with the same driveshaft, etc. A TH-400 crossmember was required for the 200-4R.