To give a "brief" overview on the past few weeks:

I took my car for a paintjob, and driving home it died on me. I got it towed to my house. A friend came over and we pulled the fuel line to the carb to find no gas coming out of it - even when you tried to start the car. We suspected a bad fuel pump.

Then Amervo came over and we went to replace the fuel pump, but the company sent me an electric fuel pump instead of a mechanical one. We pulled the old pump off to discover fuel freely flowing from the line to the pump. We again suspected a bad fuel pump. (ok, Amervo wasn't convinced, but it was a start.)

When I got the proper fuel pump, Amervo came over after work again (yesterday), and we installed it (I think I helped this time, but my alergies were punishing me!). Actually took off the power steering pump and alternator (that sucker is heavy!) to get easy access to the fuel pump. When we had everything off, Amervo noted that my timing chain seemed loose. (reaching through the opening for the fuel pump) We got everything put back together and at the moment of truth, we realized it didn't solve the problem.

We put gas into the carb and tried to start the car (like 10 times). Each time the car "ran" for a second or 2. Put it just wasn't getting fuel from the tank!

So - firts possibility, inproper installation. Eh - doubtful. Amervo seemed to know exactly what he was doing, and the proper way to set the arm of the pump, etc. Still, this wouldn't hurt to redo?

Second possibility -the ecentric on the cam isn't functioning properly. (ok, how would you fix this?)

Third possibility - uh... my car hates me?


So what do you guys think? What else can we try?

Amervo suggested we could get into it, change out the timing chain, fix my little coolant leak, and see if the ecentric is broken. Big job. Big big job. Amervo suggested replacing the engine - but my wife's reaction to that said it all.

Please - some ideas?

take the fitting off the carb and have someone crank it to see if the fuel is comming out. It seems like you have a pretty good idea of what the problem might be.

Start by installing the electric fuel pump. That will give you time to:

a) Enjoy the car.

b) Think about replacing the timing chain and verifying the condition of the eccentric.

c) Find ways to convince your wife that the numbers-matching motor in the car is far too valuable to be put at risk by daily driving and what you really need is a "beater" motor that you can drive without worrying about destorying the astronomically escalating value of the car.

OK ... OK ... so that last one is a bit of a stretch ...

I know Amervo did the obvious thing of checking the output of the pump by cranking the car over with the line disconnected from the carb, right? Did ANYthing come out of the line?

hehehe - well, by the time we got everything put back together, it was starting to get dark - and some of us (namely BOTH of us) had worked a full day at our jobs, and hadn't had dinner yet. So pulling the fuel line out of the carb wasn't at the top of the list after the car wouldn't start. It was more like what toppings do we want on the pizza!

I'll pull the line again, but I'm not expecting anything to happen. When we poured gas into the carb, the car did fine, but then died when it was used up, so I don't think gas is coming through the line at all to the carb - but we'll check that first.

So the question is - if we install the electric fuel pump (near the tank, b/c they like to push, rather than pull the gas - right?), do we need to bypass the mechanical fuel pump, or will gas flow through it?

And how do you drill holes to install the fuel pump so near to the gas tank (fumes, boom, etc)?

You can flow right through the mechanical pump. I am not sure where the best place to drill is. If it is a circular pump, you can 1/2-a$$ it by hose-clamping it to a frame rail. It's temporary, right?

Also, do not assume that gas is not getting TO the carb. The fact that gas isn't going THROUGH it is more apparent.

If the main jets are clogged, pluged or otherwise obstructed, no gas will flow through the carb except on the secondary side.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Find ways to convince your wife that the numbers-matching motor in the car is far too valuable to be put at risk by daily driving </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">........and how long have you been married Q? Dude, if you can pull that one off, you need to share some secrets!
Kel

I had a 68 bird that had similiar problems. First, I diagnosed the fuel line obstruction possibilities by disconecting the fuel line from the fuel pump, then using compressed air--I gave a shot of air thru the line to the gas tank. That should test if that line is good or bad. Secondly, I installed a temporary electric fuel pump on the inner fender by the right wheel frame and ran a tube from the fuel line (right below your heater box) to the fuel pump, then from fuel pump to the carb. It worked perfect!! I sold the car shortly thereafter so I never got to solve my problem, but the electric fuel pump alteast got the car running. Oh, the electric fuel pump had a positive and negative wire, I connected them to my battery (but used a toggle switch for the positive side to turn on the fuel pump).

PMI - I'm liking your idea of strapping it to the frame... er, as long as it stays there!

I think I will pull the fuel line from the carb again and make sure it's not getting fuel there. Triple check it.

As for the electric pump - could I ground it to the frame? Any suggestions about the best way to run the battery cable to the back of the car? zip ties around stuff?

Hey - I convinced my wife about saving the number's matching 400 block and swapping in a 455!

How? Easy, my wife worked for an engine remanufacturing company (since gone under) and I got a lot of the parts at her cost!

I never had a matching numbers motor, so I had to talk my wife into letting me buy a whole new matching numbers car.

If you think you've got problems ...

Actually, my wife fully encourages my bad habits about cars. She is working the business with me and fully supports everything I do to make it grow, including letting me talk her into coming with me to pick up a more photogenic advertising medium. More on that later.

She doesn't know about the spoons, though.

"Second possibility -the ecentric on the cam isn't functioning properly. (ok, how would you fix this?)"

To replace the fuel pump ecentric, you take the timing cover off. That is what Amervo is saying. Once you're that far into the labor, it is irrisistable to replace the timing set if it is worn. A new timing set would add ten minutes and $41.00 to the fuel pump eccentric repair job. While you're at it, you would also freshen up the antifreeze (which you have to drain to do this work) unless it is pretty new.

The original 350's had a nylon covering over the gear to make it run more quietly. This gear would strip and slip time, usually when you try to start the car while you are a long way from home. If by long shot your engine still has a nylon gear in it, absolutely ditch it if the timing cover is off.

I wouldn't be so quick to install an electric fuel pump. If something happens to the fuel delivery system in an accident or fuel line rupture, it will continue delivering fuel to any fire. This is why new cars have an impact sensor and interlocks that shuts off the fuel pump during a fuel delivery rupture or accident.

There is one more possibility you didn't list. It's possible that the new Autozone fuel pump is bad out of the box. It's a long shot, maybe wishful thinking, but new doesn't always mean good.

Your close to having it fixed, so don't get discouraged. Cruising weather is supposed to be nice later this week.

The eccentic has a metal tang that keeps it from slipping when the cam bolt is tightened. If the tang breaks off, there's nothing to make the eccentric spin.

Install a new bushing with tang.

There is gas in the tank and it runs out like an open faucet when the fuel line is disconnected from the pump, but there is gas getting to the carb. Setve, if you want, you can pull the line from the carb and crank; even so, trust me, there is no gas getting to the carb. You can tell by the way the throttle operates that the carb is bone dry. Also, the accelerator pump isn't shooting its streams.

(I'm a real stickler at never assuming. See what happens, Steve, when I assume? I should never had assumed that the pump was bad, and I would bet money that your old pump is good. Remember when we check the operation, and how I was hesitant, then said, "What the heck; let's throw a pump at it"?

What makes things fun is that it becomes a little more compliated, not easier: In addition to an eccentric issue, we have the chance of a bad (new) pump, and faulty installation to contend with. It's a heck of a lot eaiser to recheck my installation than to yank a timming cover.

The advantage of yanking the covere is that the chain is MAJOR sloppy and there is a ever so slight coolant leak at the timing cover/manifold fitting. Doing a chain sovles both of those issues, and would probally shed light on the eccentric issue.

(Steve, if you look at the PMI's picture, the round part at the top left is the inner peice. That square cut-out area is where the tab is that locks into the cam. The part to the right is the outar race, and it "floats" around the inner peice, helping to reduce friction and noise. The fuel pump arm rides against it.)

We discussed using the electric fuel pump. (It's a chassis ground.) Thanks PMI, I was wondering whether or not the pump could be ran through the mechanical pump. I thought so, but I get in trouble when I think.

The electirc pump can be installed without altering the car, other than drilling a mounting hole. You simply plumb it in between the sending unit and the start of the line. Electric pumps are designed to push, rather than pull, so that would be the best location.

We talked about the electic option. The downside is that it's a safe bet to assume that there is an issue with the eccentric. The thing is what is the issue? If the tab is broken, it may be okay, but if a rebuilder didn't use the correct spring washer, or it wasn't torqued tight enough, the eccentric could have fallen off. The bolt also anchors the cam gear to the cam. Can the gear walk off the cam if it isn't bolted? Also, there is a couple of hunks of loose metal flopping around somewhere inside.

The other downside of putting on the electic pump is the chain. The engine needs a chain, regardless to the fuel pump issue. This is what can happen if you the chain brakes, and don't ask me how I know:

The chain brakes and it smashes up agains the harmonic balancer, breaking off a cunk of metal. The chunk of metal rips the oil pan open. We're not at major disater--not yet! You pull the pan and install a salvage pan. Of course the gasket sticks to the block and the salvage pan has the gasket stuck to it, requiring double gasket clean up. After you pull the pan, you fish around in the bottom, and find the peices of the harmonic balancer. (You want to put all the peices together like a puzzle so that you can account for all loose metal in the pan.)

As you gather the chunks of metal up, you find other than chunks of harmonic balancer, and say wtf? Gee! This hunk looks just like a peice of pistion skirt. Guess what? It is! Sometime between breaking off the harmonic balancer and ripping open the pan, the chunk of metal took a side trip and nipped of a piston skirt. In other words, the engine became toast because the timing chain broke. So interface engines aren't the only ones that can suffer complete meltdown if the chain breaks.

I don't know, Steve, it's a tough call, and I can see both sides of the issue. Give it some thought. Before we get into anything deep, we can yank the pump one more time, and look inside to see if we can see any issues. That also allows the chance to verify the installation. And it's something that can be done in an evening after work.

Amervo - it sounds like going with the electric pump is the best choice - er, that is, best choice if I want to drive a time bomb - between the chain breaking, and taking my numbers matching (I think) engine out with it, or having an accident and having the pump feed gas onto the wreck.

Honestly? I feel completely indebted for all the time you've already spent, and the massive amount of time ahead of us! (and shoot, I can't even buy you a case of your favorite beer for starters!)

I'd like to get this done right, and tear into the engine, look at that eccentric, fix the timing chain issue, and the slight coolant problem. Let me know what I need to buy (parts, special tools, a pan to hold the fluids?, etc) - and we can work on getting that car into the garage... somehow (anyone want to help push?!).

Luckily, I think I can remove the alternator and power steering pump myself (er... right?) and get a head start on it. I could probably pull the fuel pump as well... now where did I put that drill bit?

You know my schedule - available on Monday, and Thursday nights... and some Fridays (but not this one - I'll be at church playing guitar). Let me know when you want to start "day 1" on this project. I'll get dinner better than pizza or burgers this time! :p

PMI - Thanks for the illustrative picture!!!

If you are getting fuel at the carb, then the problem is in the carb. It could be as simple as a stuck needle valve.

No problem on the picture. It's about the only thing you can still get free from eBay.

Dare to suggest something stupid, but are you getting gas INTO your carb? Is your filter clogged?

If by whatever chance you find something silly (subjective term) that is keeping your car from running, i.e. other than the eccentric, pump etc... Still pull the timing cover and replace the timing set. It will make you sleep better at night and you will get great experience doing it.
I have taken the approach that if I didnt replace it, have a receipt that it was replaced, then it is suspect. It just makes me sleep better at night.
I also would like to add that it is great to see FGF'ers helping each other out like this. Makes me want to be in MD,,, well,,,, maybe not

Filter is fine. Fuel line was pulled before the filter - getting gas fine to the fuel pump, but not up the line to the carb. I'd like to rule out the fuel line to the carb as an issue also, but don't have compressed air to shoot through there.

Does your new fuel pump have three fittings on it? The inlet, the outlet and some kind of vent or retuen line outlet?

I have a '68 350 Fuel pump that I was hoping to adapt to the OHC, and it's got those three fittings on it. Did you use all 3?

Only 2 fittings on mine - as my car doesn't have ac. I think the ac cars had a return line to the tank?

You could be right.

I have to admit that your problem has me very curious.

I wonder if your old fuel pump hacked up a hairball (euphemistically speaking) and it got caught in the line from the pump to the carb. That makes no logical sense, but it's about the only thing that would explain where you are today. Is yours the factory formed steel line?