So after 2 years of engine problems I'm going to commit a horrid act to some... I purchased my 69 firebird from a family member 2 years ago. My car was originally a 69 400 that had some larger modifications done to the original engine In the late 90's. During that time it had been bored .30 over and new forged Pistons and rods were added. The cam was replaced with a RA4 replica and the OEM heads were ported. This was all done along with a host of other "upgrades" (MSD box, 12 bolt rear end from camaro and shift kit). Once all the work was done it was put away until 2012 when I unearthed it from a heated garage in MD. In the time it was stored it was driven approximately 500 miles. Once I got the car back to NY the issues started. It became evident to me that the combination of parts used did not work well together. I wondered if it ever worked well.

The car was flat out not safe at first needing all new suspension as most of the rubber had become dry rotted. While changing suspension out I decided to pull the engine to replace gaskets and electronics as technology has come leaps and bounds in the elapsed time. Once the engine was back in my engine guy began pulling his hair out a piece at a time as the car presented a new tuning problem at every step. Vacuum advance not working due to intake leak, carb (Holley 750) not staying adjusted and the worst case of pre-ignition that I have ever seen. After 3 months of tinkering she finally smoothed out with a couple of minor issues. After getting the car back it was great for about 300 miles. Then a slight knock began to develop. Not wanting to risk a larger failure and out of money I put her away frustrated.

I know this story is a poster-child for keeping your bird stock or returning her to stock but I'm at a loss. Has this bird gone to far? To rebuild it reliable would mean new aluminum heads, crank, etc. and to properly return it to OEM would cost a fortune. After much thought and consideration I made the decision in modernize my bird with an LS1. My plan of attack is as follows: I purchased a 2002 WS6 engine and Trans with 65k. I know it's a cooperate Pontiac engine but Pontiac non the less. I purchased all the nessessary swap components and electronics. I want to keep the engine fairly stock as my main goal is reliability. So in the next month I'll begin the change over.

I am not so obtuse to say that ill scrap or sell my original engine and trans but rather take my time in rebuilding them to as close to stock as I can. Once she is done I'll crate both OEM engine and trans and have them to preserve some form of originality.

To some here I know this is an unforgivable sin but I'm looking to hear what the overall opinion is given my birds situation. I do love Pontiac and all of the great people I've met having one. Really hope this move isn't viewed upon too poorly.

Justn.

My first thought is you need a new engine tuner. These engines are pretty simple. A carb rebuild or purchase a new one would solve most of that problem. The ignition sounds like a big part of your problem. Sticky weights, springs, bushings, faulty vacuum advance and then throw a MSD ignition at it and you create a lot more opportunity for problems. A simple HEI upgrade can solve most problems with the lower rpm's that most of these engines run at.
Like you mentioned keep the original parts incase you want them again.
Moving on with a newer engine has it's pros and cons. If your keeping the car do what you want with the car.
I for one would be interested in your updates and how you make it all work.
Good Luck

I do have faith in my engine guy as he even called in a few of his friends to check his work .. I did the HEI upgrade and while it did vastly improve the pre ignition issue the vacuum advance had to be plugged off no matter what we did (springs). The assesment they came to was whomever did the porting read an article out of a 90's HPP took a die grinder and went to town!

I do plan on keeping car.. Thanks for the encouraging words and I'll start a thread as I get into the swap to show progress. Fingers crossed on a positive outcome.

Nice looking car. Good luck with your plans, hope they work out for you.
Cal

Indeed! Good Luck! Keep us posted. Do you intend to keep the fuel injection? I've toyed with the idea of LS power but I'm decidedly old school and electronics beyond a programmable MSD ignition control kind of scare me off.

I do plan on keeping the Fuel injection. With several companies producing swap kits its appears fairly straight forward... Got the last few parts on the way now.

Lol Always my undoing ...appears fairly straight forward.

I Was Sooooooo close to doing a LS3 Swap. I had all the brackets from Holley along with a spreadsheet almost complete. Then I had an epiphany everyone is doing an LS Swap, LS is corp. etc. etc. Of course you know all this, but For me I simply aborted the swap and Returned all the parts stockpile. I do still have the Complete EFI wet sump gas tank for when I do EFI.

I decided to go all out and build a Butler Performance Engine. Im not finished yet as it is still in final assembly, but should look stock. Plus I will preserve my matching 400 Engine and not worry about it failing.

I support you 100% its your Car! Not sure what parts you went with. I had all of the Holly/Hooker mounts and they were awesome quality.

Make a Build Thread!

I put a LM7 / 4l60 in my 68 bird. Check out LS1 tech web-site they have all the info you will need. You will need a stand a only harness to run
the engine and trans if you go with newer trans. Also you will need to set-up a new fuel system. Nothing hard at all. PM me if you have any
questions.

I figure it won't be long before LS will be the majority in these cars. Nothing exactly wrong with it but one of the reasons that I enjoy my firebird, instead of owning a Chevy like everyone else, is because it's something different. A stock Pontiac motor can be as reliable as anything else if done properly. Probably won't ever get the fuel efficiency or economically as with an updated OD Trans but eventually it will be seen as vintage. JMHO.

Typically, and forgive my directness, but my experience has shown that one or the following is true regarding Pontiac engines. 1. The person working on it has no idea what their doing...or 2. See #1.

All engines are air pumps motivated by a combustible material. Whether Ford, Dodge, Chevy or BMW, the principle is the same. The nuance or "expertise" comes from a dedicated builder as Butler taking the whole bastard child engine on all at once.

A Pontiac engine is different than most others as they changed their head chamber size rather than changing the volume of a piston to raise or lower compression. Taking a Pontiac to a Chevy or a Ford guy who knows nothing of this and how a Pontiac gains it's torque and HP 800-1500 RPM lower than a high revving chevy is just opening up bad stuff.

That being said...I encourage whomever reads this to research Pontiac specific material and spend their time (and money) wisely by seeking a builder/tuner recommended by someone. Not all engine builders and tuners are the same....the principle is.

Pontiac's don't like single plane intakes and big cams such as your RAIV unless you have the gearing AND compression. They also like tight tolerances and tight assembly (minimal vacuum loss) Pontiacs also LOVE demand orientated carbs such as the Q Jet over a double pumper Holley. Perhaps I am biased here...but I've never had luck dialing in a Holley nor have many who have tinkered with, run and written about the various effects of head, cam, carb and exhaust (Jim Hand)

That said...its your investment...I'm a purist. You will see better fuel economy and reliability with your choice with the WS6 engine. Don't forget about the piston slap, wrist pin and lifter issues with the LS1. I know...owned an 02 WS6. Common problem.

I really don't get the engine transplant thing. In 20 years with the advancements currently being made in battery technology, the proper electric setup will smoke any gas engine out there including an LS1. What then, jump to that ship. Will the hot trend be pulling the LS1 (or the Pontiac engine) and putting an electric setup in these birds.

They are original only once.

Banshee, I do believe that without ever seeing my bird you have described her to a tee!!! Almost everything a Pontiac does not want mine had put in before I owend her. With my original set up chasing issues was revolving door that never ended. I only wish I had funds to have butler build my engine. The quote I recieced was more than I would like to mention as quality work comes at a premium! I do understand that owning a first gen is a marathon not a sprint so I am looking forward to chipping away at a stock engine rebuild as the years tick by. Coming from a member who's generation never saw the "glory days" of the muscle car era it is a perspective that I will never truly get to appreciate without learning my lessons through errors. Unfortunately those errors come at a cost. While I'm sure I will keep my car I do know want I want in future restorations.

Even with differing opinions it is a pleasure to hear from all members and their views on the car that we all appreciate.

There's some false hoods there.

False?

Instead of just stating so....please expand so we can all read, absorb and reply.

If i misspoke (stated always instead of sometimes) gives us all opportunity to understand the significance of a one line reply.

I bought both books on the how to build High performance Pontiac Engines. Plus All the Machine Work and Components Were From Butler So I know they are all matched to work.

Im just waiting for my March Pullies to Come in and it will be complete.

Sweet!

Good for you!

There are some combinations of camshafts,compression and cylinder heads that are outside of the Jim hand writings. Even with same casting cylinder heads you could have different results engine to engine. You have to think outside the box some guys are cruising around the highway with a 2.56 rear gear and some guys have a 4.10 gear. Each has different requirements for their application.
just as many don't think the Pontiac 350 is much of a performance engine and choose to scrap them, they can be built to run.

I was watching old episodes of "Musclecar" online recently and back in 2007 they did a restomod of a '67 Le Mans. They kept the original 326; Butler did the machine work and stroked it.

That show got me thinking about why are we discounting 326 and 350 blocks when they share the same dimentions as the 400 and can easily made into big cube motors by stroking and/or boring.

There is a Reason, Even though the Blocks are all same outside dimension the 326 and 350 blocks cant go to the same cubes as the 400+ Blocks. Not sure the specific reason.

To the Original Poster Sorry for Derailing your thread so.. If you plan on doing an LSx motor do it up like this!

The best threads come from those that spread. That is the plan for my ls1

One reason is that the cylinders weren't cast to the same size as the larger engines. (They can't be bored enough to put 400 pistons in them.)