My family and I have been looking to get into stock eliminator racing with our 68 Firebird. It appears to be a pretty good combo as there a numerous people with 67 & 68's that are way under the index.
However, before we get too far into it I was curious if anyone knows which heads most of these guys are running. We had a hard time believing some of them could run so good with the #16 or #62 heads. We were wondering if most all of them were running Ram Air heads which are obviously going to be a lot harder to find and more pricey.
I think I can provide some helpful info. We ran Stock for awhile, with a '69 GTO & a '68 Bird.
The '68 Bird with the 330hp 400 engine is still a good combo. The #16 & #62 heads will make all the power that's needed to run under the index, when prepared correctly.
The Class Racer Info site has some good info for Stock/SS racers.
How far under the index you run will depend on how much money you can spend on the project. You can build to just barely run under the index, even on hot days. Or, you can build to run mid to high 10's. Obviously, it will cost many thousands of dollars more to run 10's than mid 11's. Under today's Stock rules, the main advantage to running quicker is if you happen to run another car in your same class. In this situation, the run is "heads-up", so the first car to the finish line wins. But, if running a car that is not in your class, you can dial your own ET, just like in bracket racing. But, you can't dial any slower than your NHRA index.
You are allowed to run the class into which the combo naturally falls, or add weight to run the next lower class, or remove weight, to run the next higher class. Most run in either E/SA, which is a 10lbs/hp class, or D/SA, which is a 9.5lbs/hp class.
10lb/hp x 338hp = 3380lbs , and I think you must add at least 170lbs to that number, for driver weight. Therefore, the car & driver must weigh a minimum of 3380 + 170 = 3550lbs, to be legal for E/SA.
If you wanna run D/SA, 9.5lbs/hp x 338hp = 3211lbs + 170 = 3381 total for car & driver, min to run D/SA.
The current D/SA index is 11.55, and E/SA is 11.70. So, which ever class you build for, you need to be able to run at least those times or quicker, under any weather & track conditions. The indexes are slightly softer, at higher altitude tracks.
Paul Carter can probably set up a set of these heads that will make enuff power to run under the index. He can also probably build the entire engine. He may have one or more competitive Pontiac Stocker engines out there now. Don't know.
Some of the quicker Stocker heads are built by a company called Heads Up. No porting is allowed on Stocker heads. But, for a LONG time, many of the quickest cars have been running heads which have had some sort of "acid porting" done to 'em. This makes the ports larger, but can be disguised enuff to pass tech. I suspect there have been lots of national record holders running these type heads.
If low 11's are as quick as you wanna run. there are probably lots of Pontiac engine builders that can build the engine for you. It might help you to get in touch with Brent Flynn. He made an E/SA car out of his 455 powered '68 bracket Bird. he did it on a budget, and ran under the index. He has posted that he's building to run a bit quicker this year. I'm sure he can provide lots of helpful info, and may even have a few good used parts that may help you. He seems like a real nice guy, who doesn't mind sharing his recipe.
You can run the index using a TH400. But, a TH350, with lighter parts and a lower 1st gear ratio will run quicker. And, if you have the extra $$$ to spend, a tricked out TH200 will run even a bit quicker.
One guy who builds & sells parts for the racing TH200 is a Pontiac racer named Leo Glasbrenner. He races a 10 sec RA2 powered '68 Bird, in C/SA, as well as a 9 sec Pontiac powered Super Stocker. His business is called Remac Tranmissions.
No matter which trans you decide to use, the torque converter is VERY important, and must be correct for the combination, in order to produce the best possible ET. For a 400 Stocker, it will need to have over 4000 rpm flash stall.
You no longer have to use the BOP 8.2 rear end. You can use any GM rear, as long as it is the same length as an original 8.2 that came in the car. This makes an aftermarket 12-bolt the obvious choice. A factory 12-bolt can be used, but must use C-clip Eliminators & stronger axles. Moser & other companies sell HD 12-bolt rears that will work great in a '68 Bird Stocker. Better to get ends that don't require the C-clip Elims.
Most all the leaf spring Pontiac Stockers now use the CalTracs type traction bars. I'm sure there are lots of other suspension tricks, including loosening up the front suspension, getting the correct shocks, and other things which allow the Stockers to hook up with only 9" wide slicks.
The engine rules are MUCH different than they were when we raced our Stockers. We had to run factory blocks, cast pistons & rods. Nowadays, you can run an aftermarket iron block, plus NHRA approved forged rods & pistons. That means you can now build a bulletproof short block.
Some say the CP brand pistons are best. Adam Strang, who runs a 4-speed '68 Bird Stocker, posted that the CP pistons are in the $800 range. Ross & others are probably a similar price. There have been guys run the index using the TRW/Speed Pro pistons. But, if your budget allows, the higher priced pistons are better.
The legal pistons, rods, and other parts are listed at the bottom of the engine specs page.
Nowadays, the cam has only a max lift limitation. Any duration is legal, and any valve spring pressure in OK. Bullet Cams is a leading Stocker cam source. Comp Cams also grinds Stocker cams. Back when we ran Stock, Lunati was the big name in Stocker cams. So, that's what we ran. Don't think they're into Stocker cams nowadays.
" HOLY **** Oldskool! you been doing this long?..."
Yeah, took my '69 RA3 GTO off the street & started racing it in '73. Built a serious(for us) '68 330hp Bird for the '75 season. My wife, girlfriend at the time, drove it and did quite well, winning her 1st six races in a row, at 2 local tracks. Also, won the Louisiana State Championship race at our local track, near Monroe, LA.
Then bracket racing took over, in our area. So, we switched over to that. But, I still like to keep up with the Stock & Super Stock racing.
Here's an interesting article about the quickest Pontiac Stocker, which shows just how far Stocker racing has come.
On the '68 Birds, you can now use most any 750cfm Q-jet, including the Edelbrock 1901 Q-jet, or an Olds, Chevy, Buick or ? 750 Q-jet. There are certain mods that are not legal.
As, with most other Stocker parts, there are some guys who can build 'em which will run a little quicker than others. But, most any correctly built 750 Q-jet will run below the index, if the rest of the combo is right.
Cliff Ruggles & SMI are just 2 sources for a good racing Q-jet.
But, if you go there, be advised that there are some good guys there that will help you, and some who won't. There are lots of back & forth arguments between some of 'em. And some don't have enuff patience to answer basic questions, from those who know less than they know.
Wow!! Thank you for all of the information, was way more than what I was expecting. That should give us plenty of information to get going! We're in the very early stages of this right now and are still deciding if we want to do this or just leave it as a bracket car.
First step is probably going to be try to find some heads and go from there. Once again thank you for all of the information and I'm sure I'll have more questions as we move forward!
Adam Strang is a member there & posts occasionally, as F/S GTO. He has been running the 330hp '68 Bird combo. for a while now, and I think a '68 GTO before that. So, he may have some decent heads you can buy.
Most guys who have run the same combo for years have acquired lots of spare parts, including good head cores, as well as some that maybe ran OK, but just not quite as quick as others.
Todd Hoven has also raced some Pontiac Stockers, including a '68 Bird, so probably has some spare parts he'd sell. He also posts on PY, as Todd1035.
I'll ask over there and see what turns up. There are probably quite a few sets still out there for around $800 + shipping. Good $500 heads are now getting hard to find.
Chris Stephenson is another '68 bird Stocker racer.
Yeah, that car was driven(& I assume owned by) Larry Maxwell. That 350 is probably the same engine Bill Rink runs in his '74 GTO Super Stocker. Bill runs well into the 10's. That engine has an NHRA hp factor of 250, in the SS GT classes.
Larry qualified at only #59, with an 11.12. But, that's OK, since his GT/NA index is only 11.30. So, as long as he can run 11.30 or quicker, he can win the race.
The GT class is a good way to run the later model low compression engines, in the earlier body styles, or to run the older engines in the later body styles. The GT SS cars can run big tires, roller cams, alum intakes, and mild porting. There are lots of Stockers that can run quick enuff to run under the GT index, without any extra power. So, a GT class car might be more attractive to some guys than a Stocker.
Awesome, I appreciate all of the information and hope you're not going through too much trouble to get it. I hadn't ever been on the PY forums, looks like there's plenty of information on there to keep me busy for awhile.
Let me know if anything turns up over there and I might start reaching out to some of the guys you've mentioned above to see what they have for spare parts. I'm familiar with most of them just from following them on DragRaceCentral.
Yeah, I saw those. But, one reason I didn't post 'em is because the ports look a little too good, like maybe there has been some grinding done, to do a gasket match. I could be wrong. But, most of the virgin iron D-ports I've seen have some deformed ports. Don't know if any came from the factory with ports that big & clean or not. I suppose you could contact the seller and ask, tho he may not know or may lie about it.
I might mention this. If you build to just barely run under the index, your heads will probably never be checked. Tear downs are seldom, if ever done on the slower cars in any class. Tear downs are usually done if a national record is set, and maybe for some of the class winners & Eliminator winners at a big race, like the US Nationals, and possibly a few other big events. According to what I've read lately, the tear downs are being done less these days, rather than more.
The reason I mention all this is to say that unless you will be building to set a record or win a national event, a lot of the details of the internal engine components & specs are not that critical.
BUT, I learned the hard way that if ANYTHING in or on your Stocker is not absolutely legal, there are some of the Stock guys that, if they know it, will protest you, and have you DQ'd. On the Class Racer forum, I asked about using a rear end that was about 2" shorter than the factory rear end the car came with. Several of the guys said that if they knew it, they would protest me immediately, at any race they were entered in.
Their reasoning is that since they spent LOTS of money making their car absolutely legal, they consider it unfair to let a car race that is illegal in ANY way. And, since any car that can run it's index can win a race, they don't care how slow it is.
I ask about a good set of virgin cores on a couple of Pontiac Facebook pages. Got an Email from a guy who says he has some, in South Louisiana, but gave no price or other details. So, I ask him some more questions. From what I'm seeing so far, looks like $500 + shipping is an aprox going price for some good #16 big valve head cores. Then it'll probably cost at least another $1000 to have somebody do a decent Stock Elim job on 'em. For max flow, staying within the rules, the valve & seat angles are VERY important. Most average engine builders don't know exactly what is required. Those who do will charge extra for their knowledge & expertise.
I see you are in Kansas. If I were you, I'd contact Scott Burton, and/or Norman & Carroll Warling. I think they all live in CO. They have all been involved in racing Stock & SS Pontiacs, for a long time. They probably have all the knowledge you could possibly need, and can probably help you find some good parts also.
Norman Warling posts occasionally on the PY forum. He also has a Facebook page. I strongly disagree with his politics, but he knows a lot about Pontiac racing & seems glad to share info. He races a '62 Cat Stocker, and his brother Carroll races Pontiac powered Super Stockers, one of which is a recent national record holder. Norman has posted that he is Scott Burton's neighbor.
I was going to venture into stock eliminator myself but just as any other type of serious racing you need a big bank account.
Yeah, back before bracket racing took over at all the small tracks, Stock was the cheapest way to race.
But, because of the rule changes and the quicker ET's required, it's not a poor man's sport, nowadays.
You can look at the cars and tow rigs at the national events & division races and see how much many of the Stock racers spend. Many of those high dollar rigs cost more than I've spent on racing my entire life.
Back when I started, me and lots of other local racers still used tow bars to pull our cars to the track. Then, most of us moved up to a pickup & open trailer. Some had trucks with car hauler beds on 'em. Some of those trailers & beds were homemade(like mine).
Nowadays, lots of Stock/SS racers have real fancy, long, enclosed trailers, which have lots of shop equipment & spare parts on board.
There are a few Stockers out there that are called "dime rockets". These are cars which for some reason have real low NHRA hp factors. Sometimes this is because nobody, or at least very few have ever raced that particular combo in a really competitive form. The Pontiac powered cars have been around long enuff that most combos have been tried.
Some of the earlier Pontiac engines' hp was overrated. So, if nobody has built one of those combos & asked NHRA to reduce the hp factor, NHRA will just go by the factory rated hp, which in many cases will make the combo completely non-competitive.
One example of this is many of the 2-barrel Pontiac engines. A 2-barrel Roch just cannot provide enuff fuel/air to run the ET's required, for the factory rated hp. An example would be something like a '68 265hp 2-barrel Pontiac 350. IMO, it would have to have a much lower hp factor, in order to be competitive.
But, a Q-jet CAN provide enuff fuel/air to make most any combo competitive, if it has a reasonable hp factor. For example: The '77 Pontiac 350 800cfm Q-jet equipped engines are very competitive, and are rated at only 250 hp.
There are quite a few non Pontiac 2-barrel combos racing. But, those combos have reasonable NHRA hp factors.The '69 Chevy 250hp 2-barrel 350 is one example of what is probably a competitive combo. NHRA has lowered the hp factor to 230hp.
Compare that to a 265 hp factor for the Pontiac 350 I mentioned. I'm not aware of a 2-barrel Pontiac V8 that would be competitive at current hp factors.
There was a real good buy this past season on a competitive Pontiac Stocker. It was advertised for $10.5k total, ready to race. And it consistently ran well under the index. It was a 400 powered Grand Am. I'da bought it myself if I'd had the money to spare. You couldn't build a similar car for anywhere near that price. In fact, it would probably cost at least twice that, if not more.
This is just some racing trivia, for the sake of discussion.
If, after considering the pros & cons of building a Stocker, you decide against it, but would still like to enter one or more of the divisional races, you might wanna consider building a Super Street class car. All you have to do is cut a good light & run a 10.90.
It's a lot easier & cheaper to build a 10.90 S/ST car than a legal mid 11 sec 400 powered '68 Bird Stocker. There are no stroke, cube, cam, carb, or intake limits. And you can run big tires & a lighter weight. Will also make a good bracket car. So, you can build it as a dual purpose car. That will allow the driver & crew to become very familiar with the car, while bracket racing. That should make it easier to dial it in to the 10.90 index, when running S/ST.
For bracket & S/ST, I recommend a Powerglide trans. Less chance of traction loss, at launch, and the potential to be more consistent, because of only one shift to make. Lots of online die-hard TH400 guys have disagreed with me, about the Glide. But, at our local tracks, the Glide has been the trans of choice for most of the bracket racers, for many years. A JW Performance Ultra Bell is good insurance for a Glide, and mates it to the Pontiac engine without an adapter.
Another option is a 2-speed TH400. Same principal--only one shift. Nowadays, either trans can be built to withstand 2000hp & more, tho you won't need one that strong, to run 10.90's.
Do you know anyone that has the 9790140 intake? I've found a couple online but they're nowhere near Kansas unfortunately. Looks like they're going for about 150, does that sound right?
Do you know anyone that has the 9790140 intake? I've found a couple online but they're nowhere near Kansas unfortunately. Looks like they're going for about 150, does that sound right?
Can probably find some on the PY forum. Don't know how many of these are still for sale.
You can probably also locate some on this site, the GTO site, and most of the other Pontiac forums & Facebook pages, with want ads. Condition & prices will vary.
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